What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Shows you understand Romans 9:20. . .the number who do seems to be growing smaller and smaller.

It shows that my mind was poisoned by false doctrine and outright heresy.

 

[Clare73]

It shows that my mind was poisoned by false doctrine and outright heresy.

Oh, wow!

So Romans 9:20 is false doctrine and outright heresy?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Oh, wow!

So Romans 9:20 is false doctrine and outright heresy?

Your view ( Calvinism ) sure is

 

[Clare73]

Your view ( Calvinism ) sure is

View?

You mean Romans 9:20 doesn't mean what it states?

 

[RickReads]

Oh, wow!

So Romans 9:20 is false doctrine and outright heresy?

It would be redundant to discuss the Pharoah issue with you yet again.

 

[Clare73]

It would be redundant to discuss the Pharoah issue with you yet again.

Okay. . .so how about the issue of Romans 9:20 of questioning God in a demanding manner?

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not sure what you want me to answer. If I start a church in China I bring with me my "Christian traditions" how to understand the Bible.

What did they use? Sign language? Please show me some recorded evidence where any Christian missionaries from Israel etc. went to far away countries and explained the figures of speech etc. to the non-Jewish converts.

 

[zoidar]

What did they use? Sign language? Please show me some recorded evidence where any Christian missionaries from Israel etc. went to far away countries and explained the figures of speech etc. to the non-Jewish converts.

I don't have any such evidens. I don't understand why this is relevant to what I said that "we must 'read' the meaning, not just read literal words."

Read this literally:

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
— Luke 14:26

You see my point?

 

[zoidar]

Do you seriously think that referred to a Scriptural statement?

That may be the answer to Rick's observation.

Read this literally:

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
— Luke 14:26

You see my point?

 

[RickReads]

Okay. . .so how about the issue of Romans 9:20 of questioning God in a demanding manner?

What I questioned is the wrong doctrine I had been conned into believing. I don't appreciate your spin on my words.

 

[Fervent]

I`ve always been fearful of questioning God and to this very moment just want to conform my will in line with His but this issue was always in the back of my mind as an unspoken concern.

More often what we fail to question when we withhold questions out of fear is not God, but an idol built by men. Just think of two of the most praiseworthy men in the Bible, Job and Jacob(Israel) both of which struggled with God in one way or another(and God chose to name His people 'contends with God.') God said "taste and see," men demand you not challenge "God" when you question their doctrine.

 

[GenemZ]

You are on CARM right ?

why you asking that?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

why you asking that?

You sound familiar to a poster there and I’m there , you might know me as civic

 

[misput]

I see no Scriptures there. . .what am I missing?

Sorry, I must be getting dyslexia, it is post#2754
misput said: ↑
Please explain what the scriptures I presented mean to you instead of repeating over and over ad infinitum what you think certain scriptures mean to you. Can't you see how that seems to others?

 

[Mark Quayle]

You wanted to say "because they cannot believe"?

No. Why? They choose not to believe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hm, but many do get those doctrines yet aren't Calvinists... I don't think it's only about getting, but agreeing.

To me this is just crazy. It feels like putting doctrines over salvation. What use do we have of "the doctrines of grace" if we are still not saved? I hope you agree that we are not saved by doctrines but through receiving of the Holy Spirit.

To me the true "doctrine of grace" is: You repent and then you are saved by grace.

But you still have to explain how the dead in sin is able to repent.

But yeah, I agree, doctrine is not as important as salvation. The problem comes when you hinge that salvation on man's ability to choose such a huge thing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Life/awareness is uncaused. Only God has life, breathing it into us. How do I know what life/awareness is? It is what it means to have life.

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
— Genesis 2:7



No, not saying everything God gives us is the same as the Holy Spirit. Why?

Having life within, being alive is a gift to us, but what is life, what is being alive? Only God has life. God breathed that life into man. Living beings are created, but life is, it's not created, it's uncaused, but the giving of it to man is caused by God. And that life has free will.



God can, sure! But I don't think that is explaining how God does it. And the souls going into judgement, aren't they created eternal as well?

Btw, why can't a caused, eternal being have free will from your view? I don't get that. Maybe you already told why, would you then mind repeating?

How do you mean that life/awareness is uncaused? It's pretty obvious that God caused it.

Mark Quayle said: ↑
Let me try this on. You admit that if we have a gift God gives us, he caused us to have the gift? But if he gave us the Holy Spirit, that gift is not caused, though it be caused that we have it. Thus, you reason, anything God gives us is the same as the Holy Spirit, and thus not caused? Is the life and breath we have not caused? Well, you said the Holy Spirit was a gift but is not caused. Then you say the other gifts God gives are not caused. How not? Are they divine persons or divine facts?

A person, caused to be eternal, cannot have uncaused free will as God does; one simple way is that if they do have it, God caused it. Therefore, caused. Self-contradictory.

 

[RickReads]

More often what we fail to question when we withhold questions out of fear is not God, but an idol built by men. Just think of two of the most praiseworthy men in the Bible, Job and Jacob(Israel) both of which struggled with God in one way or another(and God chose to name His people 'contends with God.') God said "taste and see," men demand you not challenge "God" when you question their doctrine.

I really have no ambition to struggle with God

 

[trophy33]

No. Why? They choose not to believe.

Can they choose to believe, if not elect?

 

[zoidar]

Sorry, I must be getting dyslexia, it is post#2754
misput said: ↑
Please explain what the scriptures I presented mean to you instead of repeating over and over ad infinitum what you think certain scriptures mean to you. Can't you see how that seems to others?

Your post #2753 (if that is of help to someone)

"The Holy Spirit is another term for God and all men have some degree of an inborn sense of God. The root of our disagreement is you have man completely void of any connection to God from conception. This simply is not true. Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ac 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not" to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,"