What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Now if you could just get Jesus to agree with that in John 3:3-8.

There is one kingdom in the NT, variously described as Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Father, Kingdom of the Son of Man, Kingdom of Christ and God, Kingdom of Jesus, Kingdom of our Lord and his Christ, Kingdom of the Son and his love.

We are reigning in the heavenly kingdom now (Ephesians 1:20-23, Ephesians 2:6).


Baptism symbolizes the cleansing, the righteousness of regeneration.

Heaven is also refered to as the kingdom of God in the Bible, but I think you know that.

If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
— Mark 9:47

Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
— Mark 14:25

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
— Luke 13:28

Another possibility is that "see the kingdom" and "enter the kingdom" refers to the same thing. You can't see the kingdom unless you have entered it.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
— John 3:3

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
— John 3:5

And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.”
— Mark 4:11-12

 

[zoidar]

You have nothing to do with the rebirth of your spirit, any more than you have to do with the birth of your body.

Ok, but that's your opinion.

Repentance is part of the kingdom of God ...

Where does the Bible say that?

 

[misput]

What's this "we," white man? (Tonto to Lone Ranger as the Indians are coming over the hill and the Lone Ranger asks Tonto, "What are we going to do?")

Don't blame me for your calling God's revelation a Stephen King horror novel.

What's this "we," white man? (Tonto to Lone Ranger as the Indians are coming over the hill and the Lone Ranger asks Tonto, "What are we going to do?")

Don't blame me for your calling God's revelation a Stephen King horror novel.

So I do have you figured out but what you believe is not what I believe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, you are playing with words. You can say they chose, but you have God causing them to choose. That is force, which I know you are fine with. It is not free will unless they originate their own choices.

If that is your definition of free will, then you should abandon the notion of free will. If you were an atheist (but you're not, yet I used the "if", haha!) I would say even naturalism demands cause-and-effect. All of your free choices are dependent in the end on what you prefer, even if only for that instant of decision. On top of that, there are things you simply cannot choose, such as to be perfect (well, maybe you can choose it, sort of). All things we decide are the result of other things, including, particularly, our inclinations and considerations. Those inclinations and considerations, causes, are the effects of other causes, themselves effects, all the way back. So, how does considering God (First Cause) as the beginning of that chain, change the fact that your choices are the result of causes. Can you really show me that they are not? If you can consider God as hands off, your choices are still caused.

Force??? Did God force you to exist?

 

[Clare73]

You have nothing to do with the rebirth of your spirit, any more than you have to do with the birth of your body.

Ok, but that's your opinion.

Actually, that is the "opinion" of Jesus in John 3:7-8.

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Where does the Bible say that?

Jesus said that when he said you are (spiritually) dead and blind until you are born again (John 3:3).
Spiritually dead and blind men do not see and repent.

 

[Clare73]

So I do have you figured out but what you believe is not what I believe.

You got the Bilbical revelation close enough for horseshoes.

 

[Clare73]

We are reigning in the heavenly kingdom now (Ephesians 1:20-23, Ephesians 2:6).

Heaven is also refered to as the kingdom of God in the Bible, but I think you know that.

Yes, I stated that above.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I finally figured it out what some of you guys are saying:
God created Adam innocent, free of sin, but knowing he would sin. Therefore because Adam did sin, He imputed sin to all mankind which brought physical suffering and death to all and also decreed all mankind would inherit a sinful, fallen, fleshly nature at conception which would cause all to commit actual sin and become separated from Him, unable to return except for the few He chooses from their zombie like state of sin, leaving the rest to suffer an eternity in Hell fire. Sounds a bit like a Stephen King horror novel.

It is a horror. But God provided a remedy for those he created with the particular end in mind of a dwelling place for himself —the Bride of Christ. THIS is what he created.

Do you think that Eden was what he wanted in the end? And his plans were delayed? What a weak god!

Edit: Life may not be fun; sin is a horror. But in Christ, life is a JOY.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Who made that unBiblical rule?

God's justice is his governing attribute, all his attributes are in accordance with his justice, including his love.

His love is the source of his mercy, which mercy is according to justice.

His wrath is not an expression of his love, it is an expression of his just judgment.

Who made that rule?

Condemnation (Romans 5:18) is not a loving act to those who are condemned.

Actually, Christians today are doing something totally different, judging God by their own lights, creating God in their own image, according to their own Biblically-uninformed notions, assuming he is like them, just better and perfect.

It was not about their memorizing Scripture, it was about their leaders rejecting the Messiah and teaching them to do so because they did not want to lose their religious power.

The heart of God is revealed in Scripture, whereas "Christians today" take it from their own human notions, having little understanding of the vast difference between the wisdom of God and the wisdom of man concerning him.

The Father's heart is subject to his justice.

All God's actions are governed by justice, which is why Jesus had to go to the cross in order for God to remit our sin because, in order to be a just God, he could not remit our sin unless it was paid for, so he himself provided the payment (Romans 3:25) which satisfied his own justice--the sacrifice of his One and Only Son as atonement.

That is divine love. . .paying the horrible price his own justice required.

That's what the love of God looks like.

Show me one time that scripture says God is justice, but it does say God is love and God is light. Yes God is just but that only comes from his love, justice, wrath, mercy they flow from his love . The idea that justice is Gods essence is why we have so many people thinking that God is an angry God just waiting to pound on people who don’t obey him. But his justice is out of love to correct those who need to be disciplined to correction to hopefully bring them into a right relationship with him. God can do nothing that is not loving He can’t go against His nature so even his wrath is a loving act , Gods wrath is always towards the things that are destroying the objects of His love (people). Rom 11:32 God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. He loves His creation and will do nothing that is not out of love.

 

[misput]

It is a horror. But God provided a remedy for those he created with the particular end in mind of a dwelling place for himself —the Bride of Christ. THIS is what he created.

Do you think that Eden was what he wanted in the end? And his plans were delayed? What a weak god!

Edit: Life may not be fun; sin is a horror. But in Christ, life is a JOY.

Rave on : )

 

[QvQ]

Jeff Saunders
An interesting concept that Aquinas, Augustine and Calvin ascribed to is Divine Simplicity.
Simplicity means that God is not made up of parts; He is not a compound or composite being. He is simple; all that is in God is God. (quote from Gospel Coalition)

 

[roman2819]

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin

Does "nor did it enter my mind mean"

A. God would never even think of asking people to sacrifice their children?
OR
B. God did not know ahead that people would sacrifice their children by burning?

I have no doubt that it means (A).

In those days, God gave instruction to the Jews to sacrifice animals on altar as a form of worship. But God never not ask them to sacrifice their children, it never even occur to God to ask for such abominable sacrifice of children.

 

[zoidar]

If that is your definition of free will, then you should abandon the notion of free will. If you were an atheist (but you're not, yet I used the "if", haha!) I would say even naturalism demands cause-and-effect. All of your free choices are dependent in the end on what you prefer, even if only for that instant of decision. On top of that, there are things you simply cannot choose, such as to be perfect (well, maybe you can choose it, sort of). All things we decide are the result of other things, including, particularly, our inclinations and considerations. Those inclinations and considerations, causes, are the effects of other causes, themselves effects, all the way back. So, how does considering God (First Cause) as the beginning of that chain, change the fact that your choices are the result of causes. Can you really show me that they are not? If you can consider God as hands off, your choices are still caused.

Force??? Did God force you to exist?

I had this idea as a Buddhist, "the chain argument" and that there was no free will. I held it as an argument against Christianity, that there couldn't be a judgement and there couldn't be sin because of that. As I became a Christian I dropped that idea, because that was necessary for the truth of the Christian faith, from my view. And here we are that you and other Christians hold the very idea I had to drop coming to Christ. I didn't know at that time there were Christians not believing in free will. Not that this proves anything, but it means something to me.

" I would say even naturalism demands cause-and-effect"

I think this is rather an argument for free will than against. Since atheists are spiritually dead. Why would they be right in this matter?

 

[zoidar]

Jesus said that when he said you are (spiritually) dead and blind until you are born again (John 3:3).
Spiritually dead and blind men do not see and repent.

I don't find the words "spiritually dead" in John 3:3.

I'm sure you mean what Jesus says means that, but you need to prove that somehow or it becomes just your opinion.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, I stated that above.

Why do you pretend to not understand what I write?

 

[zoidar]

Does "nor did it enter my mind mean"

A. God would never even think of asking people to sacrifice their children?
OR
B. God did not know ahead that people would sacrifice their children by burning?

I have no doubt that it means (A).

In those days, God gave instruction to the Jews to sacrifice animals on altar as a form of worship. But God never not ask them to sacrifice their children, it never even occur to God to ask for such abominable sacrifice of children.

Or C. that God wouldn't ever think to decree such a thing?

 

[Clare73]

Show me one time that scripture says God is justice, but it does say God is love and God is light.

It's two verses after: "God does not have a nose."

Yes God is just but that only comes from his love, justice, wrath, mercy they flow from his love .The idea that justice is Gods essence is why we have so many people thinking that God is an angry God just waiting to pound on people who don’t obey him.

Pure human fancy. . .with no Biblical basis.

But his justice is out of love to correct those who need to be disciplined to correction to hopefully bring them into a right relationship with him.

And eternal hell is love?

God can do nothing that is not loving He can’t go against His nature so even his wrath is a loving act , Gods wrath is always towards the things that are destroying the objects of His love (people).

Human "wisdom" at its finest--NOT!

Rom 11:32 God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

And. . .does he have mercy on them all?. . .Oops! . . .looks like he "missed" on that one.

He loves His creation and will do nothing that is not out of love.

Absurd on its face. . .hell is not love.

 

[Clare73]

Rave on : )

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of your point. . .

 

[Clare73]

I had this idea as a Buddhist, "the chain argument" and that there was no free will. I held it is an argument against Christianity, that there couldn't be a judgement and there couldn't be sin because of that. As I became a Christian I dropped that idea, because that was necessary for the truth of the Christian faith, from my view. And here we are that you and other Christians hold the very idea I had to drop coming to Christ. I didn't know at that time there were Christians not believing in free will. Not that this proves anything, but it means something to me.

"Free will" (power to make all moral choices) is not a Biblical notion, it is a philosophical notion (Aristotle, Cicero) introduced by Pelagius (British monk around 400 AD) on the assumption that it is required for the moral responsibility of man. Biblically, this is not so.

The Bible does not teach the (philosophical) free will of man. The Bible presents the (philosophical) free agency of man; i.e., a limited free will of man, able to make moral choices, but not all moral choices; e.g., man cannot make the moral choice to be sinless in thought, word and deed.
The Biblical notion is "voluntarily," the freedom to do what one wishes or desires, to act voluntarily according to one's disposition.

This is not just semantics. It's the difference between being able to obey God, and not being able to obey God (Romans 8:7-8). The regenerate can obey God, not because of self-power (free-will), but because of the power of the Holy Spirit who transforms his disposition (Romans 8:9), whereby he freely and willingly chooses the things of God, which the unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit cannot do (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I think this is rather an argument for free will than against. Since atheists are spiritually dead. Why would they be right in this matter?

But you seemed unable to grasp "spiritual death" when we were discussing what Jesus said John 3:3-8,
that the unregenerate man is spiritually dead, completely unable to respond in a saving spiritual manner... and now you assert it.

 

[Clare73]

I don't find the words "spiritually dead" in John 3:3.

I likewise don't find that God does not have two noses.

Nevertheless, you will find we are dead in Ephesians 2:1.

I'm sure you mean what Jesus says means that, but you need to prove that somehow or it becomes just your opinion.

Unless one is unable to see in the light of the whole NT, as you were unable to see in your posts between #2455 and #2467.