What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

My point was just that Jesus could be talking about "location" when he says "enter". Not saying I hold that view, just saying it's possible.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
— Revelation 21:1

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
— Luke 23:42-43

Relevance to John 3:3-8?

 

[QvQ]

I agree that Heaven, Hell, Earth, Eden are possibly locations. Earth most certainly is. Carl Jung was intrigued by symbols. The concept of winged men, and other symbols possibly actually exist in other "locations as physical realities." That our symbolism is derived from a subconscious awareness of "other locations"
Jung posited that symbols are universal. All cultures have a definition of embodied demon that is similar, if not identical to ours, yet no one has seen any demons.
In the Bible, they are spirits inhabiting host bodies, as I remember

 

[zoidar]

Relevance to John 3:3-8?

See the kingdom - after repentance and being saved
Enter the kingdom - after we die

After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:21-22

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[QvQ]

God is pure essence, love is a necessary attribute of His essence.
However, all things are possible to God. God, through His Will can express any possibility. God can therefore manifest and articulate hate,.
Contingent on His Will, God can hate. As an Act of God's Will, an expression of a possibility, God can manifest and articulate anger. Hate, evil, anger are possibilities, contingent to His Will and exists at His command.
To say that love is the only possible articulation within the scope of God's Will or that God is love, thus implying that another agent, Satan, is hate and has the power of will to create or command hate, is drifting into gnostic duality and demiurges.
Therefore God is perfectly capable of expressing, articulating and manifesting as hate and anger, contingent to His Will. Even if God is in essence, love

JMHO, don't know if what I write has any particular theological identity. I am a new denomination, Theological Soup.

 

[zoidar]

Relevance to John 3:3-8?

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
— John 3:5

If Jesus refers to baptism in water which I believe, the argument is that it would be strange if he is talking about becoming a child of God and member of the kingdom, since we become children of God and members of the kingdom already when we are saved. Baptism doesn't make us children of God, it's through faith. But we need to be baptized to enter into the coming kingdom after judgement (with some exceptions of course). So from that logic he must refer to "heaven as place/the coming kingdom" rather than "His reign" in us now.

 

[John Mullally]

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin

Some look at God decreeing everything, as show below, both good and evil. These passages contradict that claim.

“All events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God.”John Calvin (1509-1564) Declares God's Absolute Control of Everything.​

 

[zoidar]

Some look at God decreeing everything, both good and evil. These passages contradict that claim.

I think if I got Mark Quayle correct, he says it means God decreed it, but to command such a thing didn't enter God's mind.

Your thoughts?

 

[John Mullally]

I think if I got Mark Quayle correct, he says it means God decreed it, but to command such a thing didn't enter God's mind.

Your thoughts?

No, it makes no sense for God to decree something so odious that he says it never entered his mind three times.

 

[QvQ]

Some look at God predestinating everything, both good and evil. These passages contradict that claim.

Mind is predetermination. God knew in His mind, but "it did not enter my heart" (KJV)
It is the Heart of God that is troubled and this act of child sacrifice done through the will of man using possibilities God has created and granted is the Cause of His anger, wrath.
There is limited free will given to man to choose and arrange possibilities.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Indeed!

I knew a guy named Ashley. Unfortunately his house burned down with him in it. Now he is just Ash.

 

[Mark Quayle]

She said that the Bible refers to one and the same thing with "kingdom of God". And I told her there are at least two different ways how the Bible uses "kingdom of God". Of course there is only ONE kingdom of God (which is totally irrelevant to our discussion), but there are different reference points, the same way as there is the police as the police station, and the police as the officers. There is the use as kingdom of God being here now and also as where a believer goes when he/she dies. She left out the latter.

Both of those are told us, because, I believe, as a concession to our understanding, part of a heavenly "play on words". We know the kingdom of God is within us, and yet we can't see it. We know, for an example, that God subjected all things to him, he left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. That's our temporal view, not his lack of control. (1 Cor 15:27; Heb 2:8a) So it is with the kingdom of God —there is a beautiful riddle there we can't quite solve yet. But I think it is the SAME kingdom, existing as one; the fact we can't see it that way does not mean it is not so.

We have a lot of hints: The Kingdom of God is within you; God actually indwells us NOW, and our bodies are his temple. It goes on and on. We will be changed, and the old order of things will pass away, like a vapor, swallowed up in the real.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I knew a guy named Ashley. Unfortunately his house burned down with him in it. Now he is just Ash.

Was a guy I knew, name of Jim Deal. His brother Harold was a huge man, with long hair and beard to disguise the size of his face, but nobody cared. Big Harry Deal.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
— John 3:5
If Jesus refers to baptism in water which I believe, the argument is that it would be strange if he is talking about becoming a child of God and member of the kingdom, since we become children of God and members of the kingdom already when we are saved. Baptism doesn't make us children of God, it's through faith. But we need to be baptized to enter into the coming kingdom after judgement (with some exceptions of course). So from that logic he must refer to "heaven as place/the coming kingdom" rather than "His reign" in us now.

What does your logic tell you about the thief on the cross?

 

[zoidar]

What does your logic tell you about the thief on the cross?

I did say exceptions.

For instance he had no time to get baptized.

 

[Clare73]

I knew a guy named Ashley. Unfortunately his house burned down with him in it. Now he is just Ash.

Do you make up these things?

 

[zoidar]

Both of those are told us, because, I believe, as a concession to our understanding, part of a heavenly "play on words". We know the kingdom of God is within us, and yet we can't see it. We know, for an example, that God subjected all things to him, he left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. That's our temporal view, not his lack of control. (1 Cor 15:27; Heb 2:8a) So it is with the kingdom of God —there is a beautiful riddle there we can't quite solve yet. But I think it is the SAME kingdom, existing as one; the fact we can't see it that way does not mean it is not so.

We have a lot of hints: The Kingdom of God is within you; God actually indwells us NOW, and our bodies are his temple. It goes on and on. We will be changed, and the old order of things will pass away, like a vapor, swallowed up in the real.

I basically agree, but believe God is letting go of His control, not losing control. I know you said "lack of".

 

[John Mullally]

Mind is predestination. God knew in His mind, but "it did not enter my heart" (KJV)
It is the Heart of God that is troubled and this act of child sacrifice done through the will of man using possibilities God has created and granted is the Cause of His anger, wrath.
There is limited free will given to man to choose and arrange possibilities.

Here you have God compartmentalizing His mind and heart. If the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost are one, why this division between His mind and heart?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Off the top of my head, they are ministering spirits, sent to serve all those who inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14). . .God's soldiers (Genesis 32:2), regiments (Matthew 26:53), messengers (Luke 1:26).

I place them in the church because Hebrews 12:22-23 places them in church of the firstborn, along with the spirits of the OT saints.

Hmmm. I'll have to study that.

Have never really considered it quite that they are part of it, but that they were simply there, like as ministering spirits. Perhaps analogous to the "friends of the bride" in Song of Solomon.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are things in the Bible that can't really be worked out logically, for instance, how the world can be created in six days, and yet scientists date the rocks as being millions of years old. Or how a man can be born blind, and after having mud put in his eye and having it washed off, the man can have perfect eyesight. These things defy logic. It is the same with predestination and election sorted out before the foundation of world, and yet anyone can accept the invitation to believe the Gospel and be saved, and then discovering that they were elected all the time; and God hardening the hearts of the reprobate but they will be judged on their choice to reject the Gospel.

The argument between predestination and free choice has been going on since Pelagius started teaching his heresy way back when. I think that the argument arises when we try to make logical sense of something that God has said in the Bible, but hasn't given us the information about how it works. Perhaps we are not to know how it works, but to trust that God knows what He is doing and to accept that what He says is true - that election and reprobation are settled before the foundation of the world, and yet everyone is given the invitation to believe the Gospel and enabled to choose to believe it or not. Maybe we are not given to understand the ins and outs of it, but to accept the apparent paradox and rejoice over every sinner who believes the Gospel and comes to Christ.