What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[iwbswiaihl]

How can a baby be born without a decision to be so?

The Holy Spirit's arm is not too short. . .he doesn't need anything from anyone to regenerate anyone,
just as the mother doesn't need anything from the baby to give it birth.

I know you have shown your age and know for certain you have never heard a baby ask that question! And you also know, the Holy Spirit is Spirit and has no arm! You just gave an opinion without any scripture reference. And I haven't seen anyone ever say the Holy Spirit needs any outside help, but we also have seen what scripture teaching and all I am trying to do is show it in hopes that those who say otherwise on this topic will see what the verses actually say in the bible, saved by grace through faith.

 

[Clare73]

I know you have shown your age

Just can't hide youthful exuberance!

and know for certain you have never heard a baby ask that question!

Agreed! . . .self-evident. . .has anyone ever heard a baby ask any question?

And you also know, the Holy Spirit is Spirit and has no arm! You just gave an opinion without any scripture reference.

Are you sure about that?

Numbers 11:23.

And I haven't seen anyone ever say the Holy Spirit needs any outside help,

He "needs" outside help if we must have faith before he can regenerate us.

but we also have seen what scripture teaching and all I am trying to do is show it in hopes that those who say otherwise on this topic will see what the verses actually say in the bible,
saved by grace through faith.

Which faith is a gift: Philippians 1:29; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; 2 Peter 1:1; Romans 12:3.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In that case we are not saved when we are regenerated.

I was saved when I prayed. How do I know that? I know how "fish tastes", that is how. It's just a knowing. Still couldn't I be wrong? Not much in life comes with 100% certainty, neither do this, but I'm as sure as a person can be sure.

There is a difference between being filled with the Spirit, and having the Spirit residing within. The residing necessarily has certain results. The feeling of it is not necessarily obvious. The facts depend on God, not on your assessments.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I know you have shown your age and know for certain you have never heard a baby ask that question! And you also know, the Holy Spirit is Spirit and has no arm! You just gave an opinion without any scripture reference. And I haven't seen anyone ever say the Holy Spirit needs any outside help, but we also have seen what scripture teaching and all I am trying to do is show it in hopes that those who say otherwise on this topic will see what the verses actually say in the bible, saved by grace through faith.

HOW does "saved by grace through faith" mean @Clare73 is wrong? I really don't get this.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Then they must not have it. . .because if you have it, you don't feel that way about it at all. . .call it what Foolishness may call it, I see it as a gift! Hallelujah!

I agree! But then, they see it as having happened to them, but disagree on WHEN or HOW it is.

But like I say, I have confidence many of such are saved, because (if for no other reason), I've heard them pray, and they sound like Calvinists, depending on God to accomplish what they know very well they cannot, including their own righteousness and faithfulness.

 

[zoidar]

There is a difference between being filled with the Spirit, and having the Spirit residing within. The residing necessarily has certain results. The feeling of it is not necessarily obvious. The facts depend on God, not on your assessments.

But you do believe when you are regenerated you are instantly saved?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Agreed! . . .self-evident. . .has anyone ever heard a baby ask any question?

Numbers 11:23.

He "needs" outside help if we must have faith before he can regenerate us.

Which faith is a gift: Philippians 1:29; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; 2 Peter 1:1; Romans 12:3.

So, who said otherwise, these verses only validate what I have always posted, by grace are you saved through faith---faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Faith can only be proven to be real when exercised. Your point is what? Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “It was necessary to speak the word of God to you first. But since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’g”48When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord spread throughout that region.

Again, this has always been what I was telling you, faith follows hearing the word, are you now agreeing? GREAT

 

[iwbswiaihl]

HOW does "saved by grace through faith" mean @Clare73 is wrong? I really don't get this.

post #2342.

Numbers 11:23.
And I haven't seen anyone ever say the Holy Spirit needs any outside help,
He "needs" outside help if we must have faith before he can regenerate us.
but we also have seen what scripture teaching and all I am trying to do is show it in hopes that those who say otherwise on this topic will see what the verses actually say in the bible,
saved by grace through faith.

This above was the statement she made, especially again, mentioning "He "needs" outside help if we must have faith before he can regenerate us." I do not believe it to be scriptural to say the lost are regenerated before they can believe the gospel. I do not see where that is taught in the scriptures, and those who believe it have not shown where I could read it for myself. Show me and clear up the issue. Because I believe what I said, the lost are brought to faith by the word of God, which is scripture,
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Thanks

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Agreed! . . .self-evident. . .has anyone ever heard a baby ask any question?




You were the one who brought it up in your previous post, not me!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Irresistible Grace was a losing idea - so you repackage it. But now its 'TULEP'. That does not work. How about shuffling the letters to get 'LET UP'. Another way of thinking about is that you make a change from "LIT UP" to "LET UP" - probably not.
God wants all to be saved and even John MacArthur and John Piper agree to that. Per your doctrine, the Holy Spirit elects one by changing their will without their consent. But then He passes over another one – effectively sentencing him to eternal fire. I don't see that in any church doctrinal statements because its repulsive.

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.​

This does not mean man’s will is not involved. In John 6 we see Jesus disputing with the crowd of Jews that followed Him because He miraculously fed them the day before. A little later in the chapter, Jesus deliberately repulses the same crowd saying “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you” which appears to drive off everyone except the twelve the Father gave him in response to prayer in Luke 6:12-13. Someone said He turned a mega-church into a bible study.

In Ephesians 1:1-6 Peter addresses the “Faithful in Christ” and says they are predestined to all spiritual blessings in the the heavens.
You repeatedly make an assertion without scriptural evidence. The Holy Spirit convicts and draws – but that is not the same as changing man’s will. There is no scripture that God changes man’s will without man's consent (repentance). Some are drawn, but resist.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”​

Wrong. Do you ever change your mind?

​

Your argument here is immaterial as Paul also dealt with his own “sinful flesh cannot please God” per 1 Corinthians 9:27.
Again the Holy Spirit’s convicting and drawing is not changing a man’s will.
Man’s will is not involved if an outside agency changed it without his permission. Ever watch the movie "The Stepford Wives"?

The cheap faux-arguments, illegal blows and misrepresentations have become excessive. This is enough.

 

[Clare73]

So, who said otherwise, these verses only validate what I have always posted,
by grace are you saved through faith---faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Faith can only be proven to be real when exercised. Your point is what?

Well. . .that explains a lot.

Seems you missed that faith is a gift, it is not of man, but of God only.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “It was necessary to speak the word of God to you first. But since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.”

And that likewise explains a lot. . .the verse presented was the following, showing
the origin of faith is not of man, but God only, a gift.

48 - When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and
all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

49And the word of the Lord spread throughout that region.

Again, this has always been what I was telling you, faith follows hearing the word,
are you now agreeing? GREAT

Are you now agreeing that faith is not of man, but only of God, a gift from him? GREAT.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But you do believe when you are regenerated you are instantly saved?

"Instantly" is a time-dependent term, so no, I don't say that, but "surely" and "as a result of", the Spirit of God taking up residence in a person, yes.

I suppose I should discuss what you mean, by 'saved'. I am saved when my sins are forgiven. In a real sense, the sins of the elect are forgiven before the foundation of the earth. We humans like to demand a particular moment of time, so it can be identified many ways, the most common of which is the "installment" of the Holy Spirit within, i.e regeneration, which indwelling necessarily causes salvific faith and repentance and submission and so on. But if you equate it with the lost vs found terminology, then a person is not saved until he is drawn from the jaws of death, not until his new life is begun because he has repented. Others focus on the word, 'believe', since there is plenty to indicate that those who do not believe are condemned already, and plenty to indicate that belief IS the faith by which, Scripture says, we are saved. And that faith is not of yourselves.

 

[Clare73]

. . .has anyone ever heard a baby ask any question?

You were the one who brought it up in your previous post, not me!

Are you sure about that?

 

[zoidar]

"Instantly" is a time-dependent term, so no, I don't say that, but "surely" and "as a result of", the Spirit of God taking up residence in a person, yes.

I suppose I should discuss what you mean, by 'saved'. I am saved when my sins are forgiven. In a real sense, the sins of the elect are forgiven before the foundation of the earth. We humans like to demand a particular moment of time, so it can be identified many ways, the most common of which is the "installment" of the Holy Spirit within, i.e regeneration, which indwelling necessarily causes salvific faith and repentance and submission and so on. But if you equate it with the lost vs found terminology, then a person is not saved until he is drawn from the jaws of death, not until his new life is begun because he has repented. Others focus on the word, 'believe', since there is plenty to indicate that those who do not believe are condemned already, and plenty to indicate that belief IS the faith by which, Scripture says, we are saved. And that faith is not of yourselves.

If the Holy Spirit is residing within a person and that person is not yet saved, what is it that makes him saved later on? That he has repented, that he has faith you say? So you don't believe it's enough for a person to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be a child of God, saved?

The Bible describes salvation as a moment in time.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
— Romans 10:9

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
— Romans 8:24

I don't believe you can have the Holy Spirit residing within you without having faith. How is that possible? If you have the Holy Spirit residing in you you are a child of God, end of story.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Well. . .that explains a lot.

Seems you missed that faith is a gift, it is not of man, but of God only.

And that likewise explains a lot. . .the verse presented is the following, showing
the origin of faith is not of man, but God only, a gift.

48 - When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and
all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Are you now agreeing that faith is not of man, but only of God, a gift from him? GREAT.

Of course, It was even stated in the verse that I posted, Eph 2:8-9 never have disputed that and one reason I normally post scripture text so that anyone can look it up. Each of your proof text I have never disagreed with, and clearly stated that it when you say one is regenerated first, even before believing that is no where found in a scripture verse, if it is just show it saying that in the verse, not reading it into a verse. That will make the fat lady sing, as the expression goes, and by using this expression, have no one in particular in mind.

 

[John Mullally]

The cheap faux-arguments, illegal blows and misrepresentations have become excessive. This is enough.

It wasn't long ago you said this to me and then kept poking.

Nice. It is good to have a simple heart toward the Scriptures. But that doesn't mean that any of them should be abandoned or neglected.

Now how is this me misrepresenting you? I assume you would pretty it up by exchanging "changing their will without their consent" with something like "Sovereignly setting them free" - but they mean the same thing! As when Calvinists say "Sovereignly" they mean no interference from man.

God wants all to be saved and even John MacArthur and John Piper agree to that. Per your doctrine, the Holy Spirit elects one by changing their will without their consent. But then He passes over another one – effectively sentencing him to eternal fire. I don't see that making it into any online church doctrinal statements because its repulsive.

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.​

 

[Clare73]

Of course, It was even stated in the verse that I posted, Eph 2:8-9 never have disputed that and one reason I normally post scripture text so that anyone can look it up. Each of your proof text I have never disagreed with, and clearly stated that it when you say one is regenerated first, even before believing that is no where found in a scripture verse, if it is just show it saying that in the verse, not reading it into a verse.

The issue is not lack of Biblical evidence, the issue is lack of understanding of the evidence:

John 3:3-8 - "No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

There is your sequence, rebirth must come first, before anything else can happen.

 

[Greg Cheney]

It is in Acts 13:48: ". . .and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Actually the word is ordained, and it does not mean preordained. It refers to a disposition or alignment. Those who were obedient to God were "positioned" to submit to Jesus Christ as Lord. Their submission to God aligned or positioned them to submit to Christ.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Are you sure about that?

Yes, your post #2338 You said: How can a baby be born without a decision to be so?

 

[Greg Cheney]

I would like to see that developed philosophically. I don't think it can be done, consistently, logically, because it MUST depend on mere chance, at some point, which is a logically self-contradicting construct.

God himself spoke of things that may or may not occur. Philosophy aside, that is what the scriptures say. But I know that as a Calvinist you would say he didn't mean that - he couldn't; it would contradict the Calvinist's definition of sovereignty: meticulous control of all that occurs ("every particle of dust is doing exactly what God decreed.")