What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

The whole thing, point after point, fits Reformed Theology to a T. It begins with Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) and slavery to Satan and sin. It teaches specifically the operation of, or ways of, the sinful nature, and that by nature we justly deserve God's wrath. Then it shows how God regenerated us while we were still dead in our sin, and explains specifically that it was a work entirely of Grace, and that salvation itself is included in that rebirth. And it shows God's sovereignty over, or distance from, time, in that it describes us as already raised up in Christ and seated with him, in Christ. It also thus demonstrates the concept of being "in Christ", as the operative norm, (instead of mentioning 'cooperation', where we do our part and God does his). And it says why God has done that, repeating what Romans 9 also teaches, that God does this, for his own sake, to show us the incomparable riches of his Grace, shown in his kindness (towards the undeserving). Then of course, the Reformed favorite, that it is by Grace alone that we are saved, through faith, both of which are the gift of God, and not by works, but that we are in fact God's handiwork, created in Christ, to do the things that God has predestined for us to do.

Ephesians 2 does not teach a regeneration occurring in advance of salvation, nor does it teach irresistible grace. Sorry, but Paul was not teaching tulip. You shove the round peg into the square hole with this one.

You complain that my criticism of Calvin is inadequate. After all my criticism revolves around my two primary issues with Calvinism. But in my opinion, these two problems render the whole concept
useless. The rest of it isn't good theology but I can pinch my nose and let it pass on by.

 

[AVB 2]

I don't think anyone here has questioned His authority to do what He wishes...

Some do I believe. Some say that God will not violate our free will. In nearly 50 years of searching the scriptures I have not been able to find that passage, will someone please point it out to me. Actually I have not been able to find any passage in the entire bible where free will is mentioned, however the concept is mentioned rather frequently. Eve exercised her free will and plunged all mankind into sin. King Saul lost his kingdom by exercising his free will. Jonah decided to use his free will to go east rather than west and on and on. It seems every time in the scriptures where man uses his free will, it means disaster will soon arrive on its heels.

 

[zoidar]

Some do I believe. Some say that God will not violate our free will. In nearly 50 years of searching the scriptures I have not been able to find that passage, will someone please point it out to me. Actually I have not been able to find any passage in the entire bible where free will is mentioned, however the concept is mentioned rather frequently. Eve exercised her free will and plunged all mankind into sin. King Saul lost his kingdom by exercising his free will. Jonah decided to use his free will to go east rather than west and on and on. It seems every time in the scriptures where man uses his free will, it means disaster will soon arrive on its heels.

If God decrees the existence of free will. Who am I to come against that?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Free will to choose your respond, is it in the bible? Matt 11:27 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” The Lord is inviting all who are weary and burdened, and He will give them rest. Then it seems to say to me, TAKE my yoke upon you and learn from ME, so I ask, is this a command or request for whoever is weary and burdened to come to Him and He will give whoever rest, He gave the invite, and only by faith, WHOEVER comes or not, why did WHOEVER COME OR NOT, was it their decision whether or not to come is in this passage, THAT IS THE QUESTION OF THE AGES, is it not? One comes and one doesn't who's choice is it, whoever was invited, but some of the whoever do not exercise faith, and never get relief from their burdens! What a terrible response to cast all their care upon Him. My understanding, your decision or not, which is it? Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for they that come to Him, must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder to those who trust in Him. Peace in the heart or just continue to handle your own burdens, as I understand, you are the one to decide, do you accept His invitation, by grace through faith-------------------------THAT IS THE QUESTION--------------------

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Happy late Fathers Day!

johnny was banned lol- didn't insult a single soul personally. mostly just thumbs up liking posts. its gets worse by the week.

 

[RickReads]

Some do I believe. Some say that God will not violate our free will. In nearly 50 years of searching the scriptures I have not been able to find that passage, will someone please point it out to me. Actually I have not been able to find any passage in the entire bible where free will is mentioned, however the concept is mentioned rather frequently. Eve exercised her free will and plunged all mankind into sin. King Saul lost his kingdom by exercising his free will. Jonah decided to use his free will to go east rather than west and on and on. It seems every time in the scriptures where man uses his free will, it means disaster will soon arrive on its heels.

I`m not sure who you mean. All Arminians believe God violates free will in order to expose people to the gospel. Near as I can tell this thread is a gang of Arminians who are criticizing the brave Calvinists who have posted here.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I`m not sure who you mean. All Arminians believe God violates free will in order to expose people to the gospel. Near as I can tell this thread is a gang of Arminians who are criticizing the brave Calvinists who have posted here.

Yes Arminians believe the opposite about free will.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Haha, I've never heard of a Wesleyan Calvinist. Sort of a contradiction in terms, no?

Perhaps, a lot of contradictions in bible ideologies out there.

I recall visiting a pro-LGBT church, a lot of the younger generation wanted to go conservative, attend seminary, the whole bit.

 

[John Mullally]

Really?? You actually think @Clare73 claims to speak for sovereign God? In a manner of speaking, we all do that when we try to represent the truth, but that isn't what you are referring to, is it?

He does things like this:

1. Says "Good for you!" and "you don't know the scriptures".
2. Asks for bible commentary on a list of scriptural passages and requires "the whole council of God".
3. Frequently answers questions by telling the other person to find the answer in some of his long posts.
4. Purports to give commentary by attaching a laundry list of scriptures without explanation.
5. With me: constantly demands to know how arguments made from Acts and NT Epistles relate to terms in Christ's parable (wheat, tare, sheep, goat). They don't - neither the book of Acts nor the NT Epistles reference Christ's parables.
6. Pretends to answer from a purely objective point of view when he is obviously a staunch Calvinist. It comes across as inauthentic. Calvinist ReverendRV also pointed this out.

 

[Bill Fishlore]

Love is one of the primary and essential attributes which reflect the nature and character of God. The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love and because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God's love is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.

God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4 tells us.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

In the monumental work of Calvin’s Institutes , it is interesting for a man with such an attention to detail when it comes to dogma and Scripture that he left out any mention of Gods primary attribute that God is love (1 John 4:8;16) and any biblical reference to those two verses in 1 John regarding God is love. His institutes contain thousands of bible references and over 1500 pages in his Institutes.

Another interesting fact is that in the Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith, question 4 “What is God “? We read the following regarding Gods attributes and notice what is left out.

“God is Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. “

Notice like in Calvin’s Institute’s, the WCF leaves out Gods primary attribute that He is love.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. There was no Sovereignty for there was no creation to be Sovereign over. Why do you ask about those attributes and that they were not necessary? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

The true nature of Gods love is at the heart of the gospel message: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in His shall not perish but have everlasting life, John 3:16.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

 

[John Mullally]

It is a shame you must see regeneration, or for that matter, any virtue, as the result of "cooperation" with the spirit of God, in place of it being the work of God in you. Again, ad nauseum with the repetition of it, I do not deny the effort and will of man being "involved" in the whole matter, except where by nature man is incapable, as per Romans 8, to submit or even to please God.

Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists believe mans nature must be changed and both mainly give credit to God.

Their are a large number of directives in the NT, with many addressed to non-believers - they are not there for show. We see in Acts 2 that Peter promises "remission of sins" and the "gift of the Holy Spirit" to those who repent. Non-Calvinists commonly see that promise as including the "new birth". It is God's response to those who genuinely agree to repent in response to the leading of the Holy Spirit during the preaching of the Gospel. The fact that Peter pleads with his audience, even saying "Save yourselves", highlights that fact.

Calvinists insist that man is so corrupt that he is unable to understand the Gospel message and respond unless his nature is changed first. There is plenty of support for man being corrupt. But I cannot find any support of an event where God necessarily changes a man's nature without consulting him. The best that can be done is to point to John 3:8 - but that is not conclusive. In Ezekiel 18:30-32, it is safe to say that getting a new heart and new spirit (which can only come from God) does not precede repentance (which requires man's consent).

To put it maybe more plainly, how does repentance mean anything when it is merely the act of someone as silly, ignorant, stupid, presumptuous, foolish, fitful, emotionally driven, self-important and self-centered, selfish, inconsistent, easily distracted and fooled person, (ignoring for the moment that the lost are at enmity with God and are slaves to sin)? It is silly enough to claim that the regenerate are able to do so in and of themselves, but the Unregenerate???

God gave the earth to mankind (Psalms 115:16) and although Adam fell, men still retain authority. That is why men are called to pray, preach the Gospel, and respond to the preaching of the Gospel. Of course all of this is intended to be done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The fact that God judges men means they must be able at some point to respond positively to Him.

 

[RickReads]

johnny was banned lol- didn't insult a single soul personally. mostly just thumbs up liking posts. its gets worse by the week.

How long would I last?

 

[John Mullally]

Yes, I'm pretty sure all of us in this thread can show multitudes of passages showing the dire need for repentance. He does not say, "repent in order to get a new heart". In that passage the sound is as though repentance and regeneration are all of a lump. As I said, the one thing does not happen without the other.

I count Repentance (which requires man's consent) three times in Ezekiel 18:30-32. In verse 31, receiving a new heart or spirit (which only God can do) does not precede repentance - which contradicts the Calvinist "Total Depravity" doctrine.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

 

[RickReads]

He does things like this:

1. Obnoxiously says "Good for you" and "you don't know the scriptures".
2. Asks for bible commentary on a list of scriptural passages and requires "the whole council of God".
3. Purports to give commentary by attaching a laundry list of scriptures without explanation.
4. Constantly demands to know how arguments made from Acts and NT Epistles relate to terms in Christ's parable (wheat, tare, sheep, goat). They don't - neither the book of Acts nor the NT Epistles reference Christ's parables.
   • Calvinist's understanding of Christ's use of wheat, tare, sheep, goats does not prove OSAS and does not prove that God chose to decree who would and would not be saved from before the foundation of the world. You cannot interpret NT Epistle scriptures by interjecting it - they don't relate!
   • This comes across as mockingbird style. Not showing any interest in understanding the other's point of view or to honestly debate it.
5. Pretends to answer from a purely objective point of view when he is obviously a staunch Calvinist. He sounds like Calvin, but says I only study Paul. This comes across as posing.

I always thought Clare is a female. Am I mistaken?

 

[AVB 2]

Quote: "But I cannot find any support of an event where God necessarily changes a man's nature without consulting him."

God doesn't need to "change a man's nature without consulting him" because the elect were chosen before God created the universe according to Ephesians 1:3-4 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love." We were "in Christ" before creation and as a result we were "His sheep" before creation and as such we recognized His voice when we responded to the gospel message.

Not only that but since when does God need to "consult" with His creation before He does anything? If God wants to "violate our free will" He can and will because God is sovereign. Otherwise God is subservient to our free will, which is a wicked as can be.

 

[John Mullally]

I learned the following from MacArthur and Piper:
God desires all to be saved, but He only decrees that the some will be.

That's a little better! So how does the fact they say that change anything their purported followers believe?

Piper & MacArthur teach that God decrees all things that happen on earth - even the evil (including rape, murder, people going to hell), and yet purport that God desires all to be saved. That is better than what?

 

[John Mullally]

I always thought Clare is a female. Am I mistaken?

His page does not declare his sex. Clare is sometimes a last name.

 

[John Mullally]

Quote: "But I cannot find any support of an event where God necessarily changes a man's nature without consulting him."

God doesn't need to "change a man's nature without consulting him" because the elect were chosen before God created the universe according to Ephesians 1:3-4 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love." We were "in Christ" before creation and as a result we were "His sheep" before creation and as such we recognized His voice when we responded to the gospel message.

Not only that but since when does God need to "consult" with His creation before He does anything? If God wants to "violate our free will" He can and will because God is sovereign. Otherwise God is subservient to our free will, which is a wicked as can be.

Ephesians 1:1-6 addresses the faithful in Christ Jesus - they are the ones chosen to be blessed with every spiritual blessing.

Ephesian 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Redemption in Christ3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
​

The fact that God has no need to consult His creation does not prove He does not do that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I C. Indeed, it has been apparent that I overestimated you. Better if I had said, your powers are weak old man.

Hahaha!!! .......'er, waaaaiiiit! Did you just hurt my feelings? —Because, if you hurt my feelings, and I find out about it.....!

 

[Mark Quayle]

His page does not declare his sex. Clare is sometimes a last name.

Does it matter?