What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Der Alte]

Oh please. I never said Jesus believed in Universal Salvation. I`m tired of your false accusations and wish you would stop stalking me on this website.

My apologies. That was not my intention. I never said nor implied you did but the UR-ites seem to believe that. I don't stalk people I address arguments whoever posts them.
I have repeatedly asked the "Hell No!" crowd for one vs., 2 or more would be better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said unequivocally that "all mankind will be saved, no matter what, the righteous with the unrighteous, even after death." But all I get are crickets.

 

[RickReads]

My apologies. That was not my intention. I never said nor implied you did but the UR-ites seem to believe that. I don't stalk people I address arguments whoever posts them.
I have repeatedly asked the "Hell No!" crowd for one vs., 2 or more would be better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said unequivocally that "all mankind will be saved, no matter what, the righteous with the unrighteous, even after death." But all I get are crickets.

Per the standard Arminian view I believe salvation is universally available but not universally accepted and applied.

 

[Der Alte]

Previously posted
I think an analogy is appropriate here. I heard/read this several years ago.
A man wanted to go on an ocean cruise. He was not wealthy so he saved his money until he could afford the least expensive ticket. He took as much food with him as he was able to carry. He ate sparingly but it was not long until he was out of food. He waited as long as he was able but eventually he had to get some food. He went to the ship's dining room and sought out one of the people in charge. He explained his situation and said he would work for food.
.....The dining room worker asked to see his ticket. He examined it and said this ticket entitles you to eat at all the meals. Salvation is "for" all but all do not want it. God is a gentleman He will not force anyone to accept His salvation. I don't care how many verses Origen or Ilaria Ramelli twist out-0f-context.

 

[RickReads]

Previously posted
I think an analogy is appropriate here. I heard/read this several years ago.
A man wanted to go on an ocean cruise. He was not wealthy so he saved his money until he could afford the least expensive ticket. He took as much food with him as he was able to carry. He ate sparingly but it was not long until he was out of food. He waited as long as he was able but eventually he had to get some food. He went to the ship's dining room and sought out one of the people in charge. He explained his situation and said he would work for food.
.....The dining room worker asked to see his ticket. He examined it and said this ticket entitles you to eat at all the meals. Salvation is "for" all but all do not want it. God is a gentleman He will not force anyone to accept His salvation. I don't care how many verses Origen or Ilaria Ramelli twist out-0f-context.

If this analogy resolves our rift I say so be it and amen.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

WHAT! LOL. What's your question brother?[/

Another one of my did not mean to put your partial quote just the ? mark, was going to comment on another but just made a boo boo that I did not notice it added your heading; can't tell you how it happened, seems it just did, I thought I had checked it, as I have said before, Adrion Rogers would say, when you lay an egg, step back, admire it and move on, I am moving on --------------------------

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you are perishing in thirst, the bottle of water given by the Good Samaritan will do you no good unless you open it up and drink the water.

How do you do that, if you are dead?

 

[John Mullally]

My apologies. That was not my intention. I never said nor implied you did but the UR-ites seem to believe that. I don't stalk people I address arguments whoever posts them.
I have repeatedly asked the "Hell No!" crowd for one vs., 2 or more would be better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said unequivocally that "all mankind will be saved, no matter what, the righteous with the unrighteous, even after death." But all I get are crickets.

You also did this to Rick & I on this thread: Some believe that Response posting with a canned list of anti-Universalist scriptures insinuates you are rebuking a Universalist.

Advice: Avoid friendly fire: Only shoot your anti-Universalist scriptures in response to posts that clearly espouse Universalism.

When I first joined the forum two years ago, you labeled me a UR a few times - and it took me a long tim. annoying as I don't like being labeled with code names and I have never espoused Universal Reconciliation.

 

[RickReads]

If I find any eggs around here that belong to you I'll toss them at cha.

 

[RickReads]

How do you do that, if you are dead?

All the unsaved are in a condition of perishing for thirst. Dying not dead. The lost are they who are dead.
Now what Calvin?

 

[RickReads]

My apologies. That was not my intention. I never said nor implied you did but the UR-ites seem to believe that. I don't stalk people I address arguments whoever posts them.
I have repeatedly asked the "Hell No!" crowd for one vs., 2 or more would be better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said unequivocally that "all mankind will be saved, no matter what, the righteous with the unrighteous, even after death." But all I get are crickets.

Verses that appear to support Universal Salvation are in the Arminian opinion that I hold to actually talking about the Universal Provision Jesus gave the world as our propitiation for sin.

 

[zoidar]

This we do not know.

This we do not know.

Scripture doesn't say exactly. I found it reasonable and responded the best way I could.

But in what way would Jesus suffer less if he bore the sins of fewer people? Fewer lashes with the whip? Less time on the cross? Less anxiety? Nothing of that make sense IMO. To messure the punishment for sin this way seems totally off to me, since the punishment for sin is death, not less, not more.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Someone ask another, HOW DO YOU DO THAT IF YOU ARE DEAD ? Does the bible answer that, YES!
THE EXACT QUESTION--READ IT FOR YOURSELF

Eph 2: 1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[RickReads]

Someone ask another, HOW DO YOU DO THAT IF YOU ARE DEAD ? Does the bible answer that, YES!
THE EXACT QUESTION--READ IT FOR YOURSELF

Eph 2: 1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

We have two types of dead in the gospel. Physical death and Spiritual death. Dead in trespass and sin is also a deadness of heart that results in love failing.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

We have two types of dead in the gospel. Physical death and Spiritual death. Dead in trespass and sin is also a deadness of heart that results in love failing.

True and this states being dead in trespass and sin: Eph 2:1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. But when one is born of the Spirit this happens:
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Clare73]

The Jewish people at that time probably considered "those he foreknew" as being their ancestors and guys like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, etc. who knew God. It wasn't until the "doomed from the womb" talk that things got twisted up.

Relevance?

A lot of the Jews at that time also thought that parts of the Mosaic law still applied.

What matters is what the NT demonstrably teaches, not what the Jewish people thought.

 

[RickReads]

Relevance?

A lot of the Jews at that time also thought that parts of the Mosaic law still applied.

What matters is what the NT demonstrably teaches, not what the Jewish people thought.

All the teachers of the gospel were Jewish, your views on the Jews are way off the mark.

 

[Clare73]

Clare is resisting my destruction of Calvinist doctrine by my proof that salvation is universally available. She is intelligent and understands the ramifications for Calvins.

Thanks for the comments. . .wish I could return the favor, but your claim "of destruction of Calvinism" limps somewhat in light of the fact that you do not deal with John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14, where both Jesus and Paul emphatically present the absolute and total inability of unregenerate man to any spiritual work.

And Clare doesn't do "isms,' she does Scripture. . .and Clare "resists" only that which is contra-NT, no matter what it may be called.

Likewise, has she denied that everyone has free choice regarding salvation, and that only those who do not choose salvation do not receive it?

Your issue?

 

[RickReads]

Thanks for the comments. . .wish I could return the favor, but your claim "of destruciton of Calvnism" limps somewhat in light of the fact that you do not deal with John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14, where both Jesus and Paul emphatically present the absolute and total inability of unregenerate man to any spiritual work.

And Clare doesn't do "isms,' she does Scripture. . .and Clare "resists" only that which is contra-NT, no matter what it may be called.

Likewise, has she denied that everyone has free choice regarding salvation, and that only those who do not choose salvation do not receive it?

Your issue?

You promote replacement theology and you are a closet Calvinist ism to the core.

 

[Clare73]

Somone posted: God's foreknowledge is not about knowing what man is going to do, it's about executing what he knows he is going to do because he has decreed from the foundation of the world that he shall do it.

John 1:9-12 9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.
But to all who did receive Him He gave the right to become children of God
to all who did

We are not free to assign meanings to words used in Scripture.
Their meaning is determined by their use in Scripture.

The Biblical meaning and the Biblical use of divine "foreknowledge,"
is not God looking down the corridors of time and seing in advance what men are going to do.
Rather, according to Scipture, it is God knowing in advance what he is going to do because from the foundation of the world he has decreed that he shall do it.

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (forekowledge) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, (foreknowledge executed), and they came to pass.

God executed in their present the purpose and choice he made before the foundations of the world; i.e.,
God executed/accomplished (acted according to)
his foreknowledge (his previous purpose and choice). . .as in Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).

 

[Clare73]

Scripture doesn't say exactly. I found it reasonable and responded the best way I could.

But in what way would Jesus suffer less if he bore the sins of fewer people? Fewer lashes with the whip? Less time on the cross? Less anxiety? Nothing of that make sense IMO. To messure the punishment for sin this way seems totally off to me, since the punishment for sin is death, not less, not more.

Good question. . .

There is that aspect of God separating from him that we cannot measure.
Lots of room for varying degrees of horror there.