What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ok, this whole book of life thing. How can it be said (future tense):

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I would imagine the book of life is not static. Most likely all names are in the book to begin with, with a positive plan for us, but blotted out when we "choose" to reject Christ finally and completely.

I'm not sure about that. To say that names can be blotted out of the Book is to say that God actually doesn't know who is going to be saved and who is going to remain faithful to Him to the end.

While I think it is true that a professing Christian can end up being lost by not continuing in the faith, it is not because of "backsliding" or struggles with sin. It is because of a deliberate choice to reject their profession of faith and to declare themselves atheist. I know a school principal I worked with who said he was converted in a Life Church, but because of the "hypocrites" in it, he left the church, threw out his Christian profession and became an atheist. I believe he will be lost in spite of his initial profession of faith. My point is that God knew all about that before the foundation of the world, and his name, unless he repents at some later stage, was never written in the Book in the first place.

Of course these are educated guesses, because we don't know all the mysteries of heaven and the decrees of God. If we could work it all out, God wouldn't be God, would He? But He has revealed all that we know in order for us to believe the Gospel of Christ, receive Christ as Savour and be saved.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But He has revealed all that we know in order for us to believe the Gospel of Christ, receive Christ as Savour and be saved.

... at least on this point, we can agree.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But I couldn't relate Romans 8:29 that spoke of God's foreknowledge that clearly stated that God knew before the foundation of the world who was going to be saved and who was going to reject the Gospel and be lost.

I have been thinking about this scripture. Here is my summary of thoughts.

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


I am interested to know what Paul meant by the above scripture. He used the term foreknew, in one other place in Romans. It says:


Rom 11:1-2 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,


Now I am coming from this from the point of view of believing in free will. So I will see if the scripture can fit that point of view. First Paul says:


God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. This does not appear to be talking about any predestination, in the sense of God choosing destiny, or knowing beforehand what individuals would do. It is not individualized, it is talking about the nation of Israel. And how God chose to work through them. On the level of individual salvation it actually says:


Rom 11:2-5 …Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Of all those people, who God foreknew only a remnant was saved. So foreknowledge would be better applied to the term “Those who God chose to work with in the past”, “Those who God calls to be saved”. Apply this same meaning to Romans 8:29-30 And it means a vastly different thing.


For those whom God chose to work with, planned from the beginning (both Jew and Gentile), He predestined them (through Christ 1Pe 1:20) to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the first born among many brethren. Etc.


When you apply the meaning of the term “whom he foreknew” from other scripture to this one. It radically changes it’s meaning. The term Predestination then can be seen to represent the past statement, not some pre-chosen, pre-known people. But rather in Christ they were predestined.


1Pe_1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have been thinking about this scripture. Here is my summary of thoughts.

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


I am interested to know what Paul meant by the above scripture. He used the term foreknew, in one other place in Romans. It says:


Rom 11:1-2 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,


Now I am coming from this from the point of view of believing in free will. So I will see if the scripture can fit that point of view. First Paul says:


God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. This does not appear to be talking about any predestination, in the sense of God choosing destiny, or knowing beforehand what individuals would do. It is not individualized, it is talking about the nation of Israel. And how God chose to work through them. On the level of individual salvation it actually says:


Rom 11:2-5 …Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Of all those people, who God foreknew only a remnant was saved. So foreknowledge would be better applied to the term “Those who God chose to work with in the past”, “Those who God calls to be saved”. Apply this same meaning to Romans 8:29-30 And it means a vastly different thing.


For those whom God chose to work with, planned from the beginning (both Jew and Gentile), He predestined them (through Christ 1Pe 1:20) to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the first born among many brethren. Etc.


When you apply the meaning of the term “whom he foreknew” from other scripture to this one. It radically changes it’s meaning. The term Predestination then can be seen to represent the past statement, not some pre-chosen, pre-known people. But rather in Christ they were predestined.


1Pe_1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

So your God is not omniscient? That He has only partial knowledge that doesn't include the future?

 

[ReverendRV]

So your God is not omniscient? That He has only partial knowledge that doesn't include the future?

A tenant of Systematic Theology is that the True God is the greatest Concept of God possible. This is summed up by the Bible calling God 'the Most-High God'. You can use this point of Theology against people who have a 'Puny-god'...

 

[roman2819]

I believe in predestination,

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW REVEALED UNTO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS BY THE SPIRIT.

You quoted Ephesians 3:5 but ignore 70 verses of Ephesians chapter 1,2,3. same for other verses you quote, you ignore context. So in Ephesian, what did God reveal now that was not known before? God just revealed his plan to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Ephesians chptr 1 and 2 explained that He had planned this from the beginning, it was not revealed before, but after Jesus's atonement it is now made known to the apostles who were instructed to reach out to the Gentiles.

People zoomed in on the words "predestined" to mean God chose to save individuals. But Ephesians showed that God preplanned or predestined the plan, but not the person individually.

Ephesians 1 :1 To God’s holy people in Ephesus, .... (v4) For He chose us in him before the creation of the world ... In love (v5) He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ,... (v11) In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him .... (v12)in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ...
Meaning = "We" and "us" refer to the Jewish Christians . Jews who confessed their sins were first to be saved in Jesus

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth... ch 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised”... 12 you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise...
= Clearly, "you who are Gentiles" clearly means Paul was referring to Gentile Christians. "You" does NOT mean individuals. Paul explained that formerly, Gentiles were excluded from God

Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus you... have been brought near by the blood of Christ...:14 For He ...has made the two groups one... 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations = but now Gentiles can be saved if they confessed their sins because Jesus' atonement has abolished the need to fulfill the Law (such as circumcision and OT laws)

15: His purpose was to create... one new humanity out of the two... and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross... 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit... .. Chapter 3:16 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus...”
= Both Jews and Gentiles have same access to God -- anyone who confessed their sins to Jesus can be saved. The mystery (Eph 3:16) is that when God reached out to Jews first, He had (unknown to anyone) planned ahead to offer salvation to the Gentiles too.

So what is predestination? It is just a word that refers to how God planned it all ahead to offer salvation to the Jews and then to Gentiles. In context, predestination does NOT mean God choose to save individuals. There is no discussion of individual predestination in Ephesians or Scripture. But unfortunately, some people focus on 3 words "He predestine us" and believe the idea of individual predestination.

In Book of People , Acts and others, there are verses that say "God choose us". During biblical times, people don't say they chose to believe in God. Instead they said God chose them -- this is out of humility. In ancient times, people on earth -- Jews, Persians, Babylonians, Chinese -- were more humble towards God and heaven. So to say they are chosen by God is a figure of speech. Such linguistic elements have been lost over time. When interpreting Bible, we have to appreciate how words were used in different times, culture and context.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

This is a theology taught in the 1970s by Gordon Olson, during the time when Winkie Pratney and others ran "Discipleship Boot Camps". I am not sure whether Mr Pratney subscribed to the theology himself, but he recommended Olson's manual to me when I spoke with him in the 1970s. I purchased the manual and read through it. Olson quoted many Scriptures that made it seem that God did not know the future, and for a number of years I believed the theology. But I couldn't relate Romans 8:29 that spoke of God's foreknowledge that clearly stated that God knew before the foundation of the world who was going to be saved and who was going to reject the Gospel and be lost.

Because Paul wrote the verse under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and He is the Spirit of truth, then the foreknowledge that Paul spoke about had to be true, and Olson's theology has to be a mistake.

Unfortunately Olsen's theology has had a wide influence among many Christian groups, and this has given rise to a misunderstanding of how people are predestined either to be saved or lost.

Gordon Olson was an open theist who denied the absolute foreknowledge of God, that He knows every detail of the future. The book he wrote explaining this was "The Foreknowledge of God'. He is pretty persuasive about what he believes and his teaching definitely would support Calvinist predetermination of who is saved and lost.

[/QUOTE]

Just for thought: God is perfect in knowledge, because He created and spoke into existence all things, Job 37:16 Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,
Job 36:4 For truly my words are not false; one who is perfect in knowledge is with you.
Pro 19-20 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; by his knowledge the deeps broke open, and the clouds drop down the dew.
Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.

 

[Clare73]

@Clare73 You just agreed with me twice in a row. If you don't stop trying to frighten me I`ll have to tell the authorities.

Surely, I made a mistake! . . .must have lost my presence of mind.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You quoted Ephesians 3:5 but ignore 70 verses of Ephesians chapter 1,2,3. same for other verses you quote, you ignore context. So in Ephesian, what did God reveal now that was not known before? God just revealed his plan to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Ephesians chptr 1 and 2 explained that He had planned this from the beginning, it was not revealed before, but after Jesus's atonement it is now made known to the apostles who were instructed to reach out to the Gentiles.

People zoomed in on the words "predestined" to mean God chose to save individuals. But Ephesians showed that God preplanned or predestined the plan, but not the person individually.

Ephesians 1 :1 To God’s holy people in Ephesus, .... (v4) For He chose us in him before the creation of the world ... In love (v5) He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ,... (v11) In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him .... (v12)in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ...
Meaning = "We" and "us" refer to the Jewish Christians . Jews who confessed their sins were first to be saved in Jesus

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth... ch 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised”... 12 you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise...
= Clearly, "you who are Gentiles" clearly means Paul was referring to Gentile Christians. "You" does NOT mean individuals. Paul explained that formerly, Gentiles were excluded from God

Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus you... have been brought near by the blood of Christ...:14 For He ...has made the two groups one... 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations = but now Gentiles can be saved if they confessed their sins because Jesus' atonement has abolished the need to fulfill the Law (such as circumcision and OT laws)

15: His purpose was to create... one new humanity out of the two... and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross... 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit... .. Chapter 3:16 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus...”
= Both Jews and Gentiles have same access to God -- anyone who confessed their sins to Jesus can be saved. The mystery (Eph 3:16) is that when God reached out to Jews first, He had (unknown to anyone) planned ahead to offer salvation to the Gentiles too.

So what is predestination? It is just a word that refers to how God planned it all ahead to offer salvation to the Jews and then to Gentiles. In context, predestination does NOT mean God choose to save individuals. There is no discussion of individual predestination in Ephesians or Scripture. But unfortunately, some people focus on 3 words "He predestine us" and believe the idea of individual predestination.

In Book of People , Acts and others, there are verses that say "God choose us". During biblical times, people don't say they chose to believe in God. Instead they said God chose them -- this is out of humility. In ancient times, people on earth -- Jews, Persians, Babylonians, Chinese -- were more humble towards God and heaven. So to say they are chosen by God is a figure of speech. Such linguistic elements have been lost over time. When interpreting Bible, we have to appreciate how words were used in different times, culture and context.

Thanks for the post. I have been deconstructing my 40 years of Calvinism this past year.

 

[Clare73]

Except John 3:16 only applies to the eject not the world in Calvinism

So what is the non-issue here, other than disagreement with the text?

John 3:16 applies to those to whom Jesus said it applied, "whoever believes," right?
Who are "the elect" (Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Romans 11:7; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1) if not those who believe?
What is your issue with the elect of the NT?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I can’t begin to tell you how many Calvinists defend daily , habitual sin and justify it on another forum . I get banned when I challenge them too. And I’m not talking about becoming sinless or sinless perfectionism either. It’s as if the new birth , new creation has no effect over the flesh . And the flesh , not the in dwelling spirit has the victory . I question the conversion . It’s an oxymoron to say one is saved yet lives like the children of darkness .

I've never heard of any Calvinist who does that. Are you calling them Calvinists because they call themselves Calvinist, or because they fit your concept of Calvinist? Or do you call them Calvinists because of their doctrine?

They may be otherwise 'Calvinistic' but that doctrine is not Calvinism.

 

[Clare73]

Can a Calvinistic viewpoint really explain what love is? Kindness? Goodness?

You see a man in the street, do you have love for him? Why? God may not love him.

Is that not turning truth inside out?

And in that paradigm, God also may love him, and we don't know which, so are we free to reject him?

God's love is for all, it is "without partiality",

God's justice is without "partiality."
Does Scripture state his mercy, love or favor are also without partiality?

it is the rejection of His love that God hates.

Is it not sin that God cannot tolerate in his burning pure and holy presence. . .which is why Christ's righteousness is imputed to us (Romans 1:17; Romans 3:20-24) in justification by faith, just as it was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3), that we may "come into his presence with thanksgiving?"

God does not have a naughty and nice list, where He is the one who determines on whom he will be naughty and on whom he will be nice.

God has a Book of Life which separates the "naughty" from the "nice."

Is that "love"?

Does God's love delight in man's evil and sin, or does it rejoice with the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6), which is his word and which reveals his election (Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Romans 11:7; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1)?

 

[Clare73]

It’s the greatest reason of all to reject it’s teaching .

It's the greatest reason of all to reject the misrepresentation of its teaching, as in TULIP's "irresistable" grace, a misnomer for the operation of God's grace.

 

[Clare73]

Ok, give me the context, of Cain?

I will give you the context of Romans 9, Paul has been talking about faith in God's promise, and how it, not perfect works saves. Yet having stated, very clearly that those Rom 2:6 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": Paul goes to two great lengths, expressing faith, the "new (or should I say renewed) promise of God" saves, and we should be careful to maintain good works, because we will indeed be judged by our works.
Romans 9, then says:

Rom 9:7-8 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
The illustration of Isacc, is not telling us that some a sovereignly chosen for salvation with no action on the part of the person, and some are damned by God's selection, having been given no chance.

Correct. . .the example of Isaac is not about Isaac's salvation.
Romans 9 is about Paul vindicating God's righteousness in his rejection of Israel, except for a remnant, by demonstrating that not all Israel is Israel. . .as presented in my post #981 to you, following:

"In vindicating God's righteousness in his rejection of Israel in Romans 9, Paul demonstrates that not all Israel is Israel, that throughout Israel's history God has operated in a pattern of sovereign separation/choice:

1) separation (Isaac and Ishmael) based on God's choice of (promise to) Sarah,

2) separation (Jacob and Esau) based on nothing but Gods absolutely sovereign choice of Jacob, and

3) separation again (belief and unbelief--but fulfilling his promise to Israel in a believing remnant),
with God's choice of the Gentiles in Israel's stead (Romans 11:19). . .

which separating and choosing in the old covenant is a demonstration of God's
4) separating and choosing in the new covenant (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).

In the exercise of his absolute sovereignty in the disposition of men (above)
God fails neither in his promise to Israel (fulfilled in a remnant),
nor in his purpose of the gospel; i.e., the offer of salvation to the world.

So what's the problem with the absolute sovereignty of God in the disposing of men?"

But rather, Isaac was used as a picture to represent how "it is God's choice how he saves". He saves "now", by faith, not by works of the law. God's promise to Issac was a good picture of this because his promise came with no effort of his own. But it is not saying there is "no choice in who is saved", we have to bend the rest of the scripture to get that picture.

 

[ReverendRV]

I believe in predestination, wherein God chooses whom He will save and destroy the rest on judgment day, as do a small number of others. The rest of you believe in "free will" salvation, otherwise known as Arminianism. People like to call predestination "Calvinism," but that is a misnomer, as John Calvin did not create, discover or originate the doctrine of predestination, he believed it and taught it to others. Predestination is in Scripture. Just as Calvin's name is not found in Scripture, neither is the name of Jacobus Arminius, from which the word "Arminianism" derives. John 1:12 is one of the favorite verses quoted to validate Arminianism. Yet, John 1:13, which is directly related to John 1:12, is rarely, if ever also quoted. Arminianism is completely built upon and depends totally upon the false concept that each individual has the ability, intellect and opportunity to "chose" to believe or not, that each person determines whether or not they "get saved." As I heard a pastor say, "Everybody chooses where they will spend their eternity." This ability to "chose" is directly related to man's "free will." The reason John 1:13 is ignored is that the verse totally destroys the concept that man has the "free will" to choose or reject the gospel and by his "free will" determines if he "gets saved" or rejects the truth.
John 1:13 Which were born(spiritual birth that comes from God, James 1:18), not of blood (being Jewish), nor of the will of the flesh,(that which man desires), NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God.
In order to teach "free will" salvation requires a pastor to either ignore verses that teach predestination or twist the predestination verses if they quote them. The main "proof text" used to teach that God "wants to save everybody" is, of course, 2Pet 3:9. However, this verse has not been translated properly, in that a couple of crucial words is left out. Peter wrote, "...but is longsuffering to us-ward..." Whenever the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it is only used to refer to the sheep, the believers, the predestinated. It is never used to mean "all people." So Peter wrote that "God is longsuffering to His sheep..." As a result of clarification, the verse should properly read,"... not willing that any of us (sheep) should perish, but that all of the sheep will come to repentance." In church buildings, pew warmers will often hear the phrase, "God wants to...", "God wants to bless you," "God wants to use you," "God wants to do a mighty work in your life,..." Yet, there is no verse that uses the words, "God wants to..." Rather than "God wants to...," Scripture teaches that God does whatever He wants to do, in the case of people, no person can prevent God from acting nor does God have to get permission from a person before God can act on a person, or that "God will never do something against a person's will."
Psalm 115:3, 135:6
Isa 46:10
Dan 4:35

Let's look at some predestination verses using logic rather than a skewed view.
Isa 55:11, a favorite verse in many church buildings.
So shall my word be that goes forth out of my voice: it will not return to me void, but it will accomplish that which I purpose, and it will prosper (succeed) in the situation/circumstance to which I send it.
This verse is easy to understand. By the meaning of the verse, if God sent His word to individuals with the purpose of those individuals "getting saved," then, these individuals would "get saved." God's word would prosper in the goal of which it was sent. So, if God "wants" all people to get saved, why doesn't He simply send His word to all individuals? Why doesn't He tell every individual exactly what each individual needs to hear to "persuade" or "convince" each individual to "Accept Christ?" ("Accept Christ" is not found in Scripture.) Your camp teaches that God pursues people, something not found in Scripture. Your camp teaches that God "woo's people." Again, another tradition of man not found in Scripture.

A person has to have their spiritual eyes and ears open to understand salvation, which is a spiritual thing, 1Cor 2:14 But the natural man (man in the flesh) recieveth not the things of the Spirit (spiritual things) of God: for they (spiritual things) are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerened. A person has to have their spiritual eyes and ears open to understand the spiritual truths in Scripture. A person has to have their spiritual eyes and ears opened in order to believe in Jesus. If so, what do you do with these verses?
Mat 11:25 At that time, Jesus, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou has hid these things from the wise and prudent and has revealed them to babes. Hmm, God "wants" everybody to "get saved?" But He hides knowledge and understanding from the wise of the world? If a person needs spiritual knowledge and understanding to obtain salvation, but God hides it from them, how can you say God wants everybody saved if He keeps the crucial and necessary information from them? And Jesus gave thanks for this action of God!

Read this carefully, Mat 11:27 All things are delivered to me from my Father: and no human knows the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any human the Father, except for the Son, and he TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.
Hmm, no person, of their own efforts and intellect, can ever come to know the Father. Jesus has to reveal the Father to people! According to this verse, Jesus chooses to whom He will reveal the Father. This also means that Jesus doesn't reveal the Father to all people.

Mat 13:10-11 And the disciples asked Jesus, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" Jesus replied, "Because it is granted to you to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it (the ability to understand) is not granted to them." Hmm, the ability to understand the mysteries of the kingdom, spiritual eyes and ears opened, is only given to some and the rest are kept in spiritual darkness. Again, crucial information is given to some and kept unknown to others.

Lk 9: 43-45 "... Jesus said to his disciples, "Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man will be delivered into the hands of men." BUT THEY UNDERSTOOD NOT WHAT JESUS WAS SAYING, IT WAS HID FROM THEM...

Lk 19:42...but now they are hid from your (spiritual) eyes.

John 8:47 "He that is of God hears God's word. You do not hear God's word because you are not of God."

John 10:26-27 "But you don't believe me because you are not one of my sheep...My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me."

John 12: 37-40 "... THEREFORE THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE because Isaiah had said, " He (God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts so that they could not see (with spiritual eyes), nor understand with their heart (mind), and be converted, and I should heal them. God prevented them from believing. Why would God actively prevent people from believing if He wants everybody saved? How does salvation come? When a person believes, Acts 16: 28-31. If believing is the first part of salvation and is necessary for salvation, and God prevents people from believing, how does that fit in with "God wants everybody to get saved?"

2Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW REVEALED UNTO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS BY THE SPIRIT.

2Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord GIVE YOU UNDERSTANDING IN ALL THINGS.

1John 4:6 We are of God: He that knoweth God hears us; he that is not of God does not hear us. "Hear" here does not mean simply audibly hearing words. For the sheep, it means to hear with spiritual ears having been opened to the truth. For the goats, it means that their ears are spiritually closed, made deaf.

These verses are in your bible. I can show many more which teach that God opens eyes and ears and God closes eyes and ears. But these verses are never taught or explained. Why? because they all contradict Arminianism. Notice, there is not one mention of God closing off spiritual understanding as a response or reaction to people "rejecting the truth." The "lost" in 2Cor 4:3 are lost because God purposed them to be lost before they were born. They are born lost, they live their lives as lost people and they will die lost. You may disagree, but this is what belief in predestination teaches.

Hey Bob, I'm a Calvinist too...

 

[Clare73]

I challenge every Calvinist to read this. It was written by Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38, one of the earliest Church Fathers, It clearly states that man has free will, and is damned because of using it for good, or evil.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will,

Thanks.

Men are possessed of a limited free will, in that they do not have the power to choose (execute) all moral choices; e.g., man cannot choose to be sinless, to never sin in thought, word or deed.

However, man has free will in the Biblical sense: the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what he prefers, likes.
But man's will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by his disposition; i.e., what he prefers, likes.

The issue here being unregenerate man (without the Holy Spirit) does not "prefer or like" the things of God (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14) and, therefore, he does not and will not choose them.

and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

Correct.

What is true is that all unregenerate men (no Holy Spirit) are by nature fallen, corrupt (Romans 8:7-8), condemned (Romans 5:18).

What is true is that those who receive, believe and obey the gospel are saved from the condemnation in which all mankind is born (Romans 5:18).

What is true is that "no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

What is true is that "All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

What is true is that "I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God.

The issue is not power, the issue is preference.
Fallen, corrupt, unregenerate man does not prefer nor like the things of God and will not freely choose what he does not prefer nor like.

For there is no coercion with God,

Indeed!

God accomplishes his purposes, not by coercion, but by working in the disposition (heart) of unregenerate man, giving him to prefer the things of God, which man then freely and voluntarily without external force or constraint chooses of his own free will.

God does not violate the free will of unregenerate man, God uses the free will of unregenerate man to bring man to himself.

but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice

The issue is not "power" of choice, the issue is "preference" of choice, which preference determines the choice.
Unregenerate man's preference must be changed in order for him to freely choose the things of God.

(for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious,

but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart,

That is the heart (disposition) of unregenerate man which has not been given to prefer the things of God.

thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom_2:4, Rom_2:5, Rom_2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good,

All are made with an unregenerate fallen nature, none are by nature "good."

these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat_5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk_21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk_6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk_12:45, Luk_12:46; Mat_24:48, Mat_24:51)

All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

Remembering that the issue is not power, the issue is preference. Unregenerate man chooses what he prefers.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co_6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe_2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph_4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph_4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co_6:11)

If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

And again, remembering it is not about power, but preference.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit (unregenerate man) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he does not understand them, and they are foolishness to him," of which foolishness he wants no part.

Romans 8:7-8 - "the sinful mind (unregenerate man) is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

It cannot do so because what it prefers is so much stronger than the contrary.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I've never heard of any Calvinist who does that. Are you calling them Calvinists because they call themselves Calvinist, or because they fit your concept of Calvinist? Or do you call them Calvinists because of their doctrine?

They may be otherwise 'Calvinistic' but that doctrine is not Calvinism.

It’s on another forum , slicks .

 

[Clare73]

Romans 8:29: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers".
Predestination has to be linked with God's foreknowledge. God knew from the foundation of the world who were going to come to and embrace Christ, and who were going to reject or ignore the Gospel and remain lost. Predestination without foreknowledge is "predetermination", and there are no Bible verse that state the word "predetermination". It means that God does not predetermine who is going to be saved or lost without knowing beforehand who is going to receive Christ.

Ok, but I tend to find that people, fall into the "predetermination" camp more readily. And it makes God look like a monster. But I would also say, that you should consider that "foreknowledge" is not what you think it to be either. For note, God did not know everything that would occur before hand.

Gen 6:6-7 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Nor is that the Biblical meaning of divine foreknowledge.

From my post #160:

"Divine foreknowledge, as used in Scripture, does not refer to God knowing in advance what men are going to do, but refers to God knowing in advance what he is going to do. . .because he has decreed that he shall do (execute) it.

Acts 15:18 - 'Known to the Lord for ages is his work.'

Isaiah 48:3 - 'I foretold (predestined) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted (executed), and they came to pass.'

See Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 37:26.

God executed in their present the choice and purpose he made (predestined) before they were created;
i.e., he executed (accomplished) his foreknowledge (his previous choice and purpose)."

But God predetermined that at a time in history, He would send His Son to become a man and to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. If we look back on when we first received Christ, we see that God predetermined events and circumstances where we would be in a place where we would hear the Gospel. Then it was up to us to actually receive Christ. Every person who is lost will be able to look back to where God arranged circumstances and events to enable them to hear the Gospel. The difference is that they hardened their hearts and refused it. They will know it when their eyes are opened at the Judgment, and they will know that they are guilty and the fault was upon no one but them. They won't be able to play the "predestination" card to blame God, because all He has to say is, "You can see clearly where I arranged everything so that you could hear the Gospel of Christ, but it was you who refused it in spite of Me doing everything to make it as easy and simple as possible to receive Christ and be saved from My wrath to come." Those who are lost will not be able to deny it.

 

[TedT]

"Predestinate" is to destinate (determine) the outcome in advance.

Unacceptable...it must mean to predict the outcome of a person's free will decision will indeed be fulfilled.

Iow, predestination refers to prediction, not to causation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It’s on another forum , slicks .

slicks? Doesn't answer my point.