• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,463
857
Califormia
✟146,819.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Calvinists use inductive reasoning to formulate their 'Total Depravity' by showing a laundry list of scriptures depicting man's corrupted nature. That is not sufficient. Calvinist 'Total Depravity' goes beyond saying that man is corrupt - it says that man's corruption is at a level he is unable to repent in response to the Gospel while under the influence of the Holy Spirit without having his nature changed first (i.e. what they call regeneration and others call the new birth).

If Calvinist 'Total Depravity' is an important truth I believe there will be at least two scripture passages showing that man must undergo 'transformation', 'the new birth' or 'regeneration' before he can respond in repentance to the preaching of the Gospel under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Just because God desires all people to be saved does not mean they are - man is subject to judgment. Look on-line, even John Piper and John MacArthur admit that God desires all to be saved - although I don't agree with much else they preach. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 provide strong evidence that God desires all to be saved.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
60
richmond
✟72,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced

What problem for Arminianism? Please clarify.
 
Upvote 0

AVB 2

Saved for nearly 50 years.
Jul 3, 2013
151
96
Northeast Indiana
✟29,679.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

The reason that A "chooses" Christ (actually he didn't, he was chosen by God long before he was born) was determined before the foundation of the world according to Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as He [God] hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." B was not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Our free will would never allow us to choose righteousness over sin. Eve in the Garden of Eden knew God's revealed will as found in Gen 3:2-3 "And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it..." So it was very clear to Eve; don't eat of the tree in the midst of the garden. So did Eve follow God's will or did she use her free will? You already know the answer.

Romans 9:15 “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” God is sovereign and He doesn't check with our free will before He acts. A god that will not violate our free will is not the God of the Holy Scriptures. Why would any Christian pray a prayer like this: Oh God hear my prayer for my first born son. He is not a believer, he thinks God is a figment of man's imagination and evolution is how this world began 4.5 billion years ago. I want you to change his mind, but as an Arminian I realize that You cannot influence his beloved free will in any way shape or form because his free will is much more important to You than is saving his soul from eternal damnation. Amen.
 
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

iwbswiaihl

Active Member
May 17, 2022
398
118
82
BON AQUA
✟34,412.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I deleted all but this, which I will comment on: And you did say perhaps not entirely accurate, because the main difference is really that mindset behind that false Gospel. I doubt seriously if you know the mind set of many others, although that may just be observation.

But when it comes to grace, as I say below, by grace through faith, is true.
Speaking only from my own post, go back and show where I ever posted any of what you say: One can easily find that whenever I mention salvation, if I took it from the beginning I would say that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I have also stated that it is the word of God that deals with the heart of man by the work of the Holy Spirit through His word in the heart that brings conviction that I needed Jesus Christ as my Savior. I have shown that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Even showed Isa 55: 6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.7Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11 so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it.

I could add more but this is sufficient to show the means of conviction is from the Lord by the working of the Holy Spirit through the word which produces the faith which is offered by His grace as I stated above. Plus, I do not think you singled me out nor even mention by name, but felt included, not being of reformed mind set, but to jab a little, but a mind set of rightly dividing the word.
OR OH ME?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,478
2,670
✟1,038,295.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What problem for Arminianism? Please clarify.

Why did I come to Christ, but not my friend F. Why did I "choose" Christ, but not F? We both have free will. But why did I do the better choice? The dilemma as I see it is we believe we have free will, but we don't know why some "choose" Christ, others not.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,767
3,102
Australia
Visit site
✟888,226.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Now we know God hardens sinners, but we need to look at how and why? With Calvinist leanings, you would say men can not come to Jesus unless they are drawn. That it is His sovereign choice. Let’s look at:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.​


It is certainly a choice that God makes, but look at what it is a choice between.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​


The fact is God enlightens those who respond to His love, and the redemptive message He has given.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."​


He hardens, i.e. does not reveal Himself, to the one who once seeing the light goes on in his sins.

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.​

As we see here it is man’s choice between, coming to the light or withdrawing from it.


Joh 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

The passage you quote where Paul states:

Rom 9:18-21 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​


Is not God saying, “shut up man, I am God”. It is a reply to those people who dishonor His word by not acting in love for Him and His words. The blinded could have an objection, but it is not valid objection. For they were given a chance. As we see from John above.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.​

It is not just the bible that presents this idea the Earliest Church Fathers maintain the free will of man in regard to salvation:

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 [A.D. 120-202]

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)​


Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.​
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,090
7,513
North Carolina
✟343,679.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Concerning Arminianism it's the question Mark Quayle posted. Something like why A is "choosing" Christ but not B. What is it with A that makes him do the better choice,
The same thing that it is in John 3:3-8. . .the sovereign Holy Spirit regenerating when and where he pleases, working in the disposition giving one to prefer God's will, which he freely and voluntarily chooses because it is what he prefers.
A better than B? Is it chance? The answer is, I have no idea why, other than I believe free will is involved. So I see that as a similar dilemma as we have in Calvinism where
we don't know why God creates A for heaven but not B.
Scripture answers your question, but it seems you don't like the answer and won't accept it,
which answer is: because it pleases him to do so. . .period.
 
Reactions: AVB 2
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
60
richmond
✟72,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced

Ok, I get it. Arminians believe everyone has a chance. It's a matter of having freewill to choose sin instead of choosing Christ. The elect are chosen because they choose to respond to His voice.

I think you are accepting Mark's argument instead of examining actual Arminian doctrine.

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
 
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
60
richmond
✟72,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced

I grappled with this issue for many years. I dropped that back of bricks when I found the path away from the blindness of Calvinism. My answer is in post 1888
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,478
2,670
✟1,038,295.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with liking, accepting or not liking, not accepting what answer scripture gives.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,090
7,513
North Carolina
✟343,679.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Calvinists use inductive reasoning to formulate their 'Total Depravity' by showing a laundry list of scriptures depicting man's corrupted nature. That is not sufficient.
"Scripture is not sufficient" to explain unregenerate man's complete inability to please God
(Romans 8:8), as
"Gravity is not sufficient" to explain why what what goes up must come down.
 
Upvote 0

AVB 2

Saved for nearly 50 years.
Jul 3, 2013
151
96
Northeast Indiana
✟29,679.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

If God desires that all will be saved, all will be saved. Close the churches, call all the missionaries home and forget about evangelism! God desires all to be saved therefore all will be saved! God always gets what He desires right? After all He is God almighty. Did He desire Adam and Eve to sin? Did He desire to send Christ to die a horrible and painful death at Calvary? No, but He did allow it. Why? To erase the effects of man's free will. Perhaps "all" means all kinds of people; Jews and Gentiles, kings and knaves, rich and poor, freemen and slaves, men and women, famous people and not famous people, ALL must be saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Cannot God override a man's free will? The God of the Holy Scriptures in not some wimp wringing His hands in heaven hoping against all hope that someone somewhere will use their free will to humbly receive Christ. No, He is sovereign over absolutely everyone and everything 100% of the time. Absolutely nothing happens that He has not already predestined to happen, including man's salvation. The Arminian says that God will not violate man's free will which makes God subservient to mankind's sinful free will. William Henley said "I am the master of my fate; the Captain of my soul." Henley was wrong, God is our Master and our Captain. So what did Christ accomplish at Calvary? The possibility that some may receive Him and gain eternal life? Or did His works actually save many from damnation.
Salvation is always the work of God on behalf of man and never a work of man on behalf of God.
 
Upvote 0

iwbswiaihl

Active Member
May 17, 2022
398
118
82
BON AQUA
✟34,412.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
And they start with sovereign regeneration by his sovereign Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8).

When do spiritually dead men (Ephesians 2:1) spiritually cooperate?

Not according to Jesus in John 3:3-8.

And not according to Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Read the rest of John 3

Perfect example when the dead to Christ come to life; by grace through faith just like this John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,478
2,670
✟1,038,295.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I grappled with this issue for many years. I dropped that back of bricks when I found the path away from the blindness of Calvinism. My answer is in post 1888

I believe we have free will. To me that's the only way to make sense of the existence of sin. But I don't understand how it works. Well, I have some ideas...
 
Reactions: ReverendRV
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,090
7,513
North Carolina
✟343,679.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
We have limited free will, we are not free to make all moral choices.
We cannot choose to be sinless--to never sin in thought, word or deed.

Nor does the human will operate in a vacuum.
It's not about the will, it's about the disposition, where the preferences and likes reside, which governs the will.

You came but not your friend, because the Holy Spirit gave your, and not your friend's, disposition to "prefer" it, and our will chooses what we prefer, like.
 
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,463
857
Califormia
✟146,819.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
If God desires that all will be saved, all will be saved. Close the churches, call all the missionaries home and forget about evangelism! God desires all to be saved therefore all will be saved! God always gets what He desires right?
As I said previously, I suggest you look on-line and you will find that John Piper and John MacArthur saying that God desires all to be saved. Those are the leading Reformists - they are YOUR leaders. Put your gun down.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,478
2,670
✟1,038,295.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

It's not a very fun story. 39 years old, died from heart attack. I gave him a Bible. I doubt he ever opened it.
 
Reactions: ReverendRV
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,365
69
Pennsylvania
✟946,385.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Yes, I know who "the prince of the power of the air" and "god of this world" is. My point was that what we escape is his dominion over us, not his influence, though granted, "escape" could be used in the sense that we are no longer captives to his influence. I'm hoping that is all you meant.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,090
7,513
North Carolina
✟343,679.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It's not a very fun story. 39 years old, died from heart attack. I gave him a Bible. I doubt he ever opened it.
Yeah, that hurts.

But there will be no tears in heaven.
 
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,365
69
Pennsylvania
✟946,385.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
As I said previously, I suggest you look on-line and you will find that John Piper and John MacArthur saying that God desires all to be saved. Those are the leading Reformists - they are YOUR leaders. Put your gun down.
Do John Piper and John MacArthur, (our purported esteemed leaders), qualify that statement? Or do they mean by it the same thing you do?
 
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0