What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Der Alte · Jun 14, 2022

misput said:
Actually my issue is with God and I do not believe He considers man to be a sinner until he knowingly and willfully sins, "is drawn away by his own lust". Obviously my issue is not with you because you are just someone in cyber space that I enjoy debating with : )

We usually think of someone mature "sinning" but have you ever seen a sweet little toddler stand there and lie? I as a parent hear a crash in the next room, I run in and there is something broken on the floor. I asked my sweet little innocent toddler, "What happened, did you do this?" And that sweet little toddler stands there shaking his head saying "I didn't do it."

iwbswiaihl · Jun 14, 2022

Clare73 said:
Well, since you asked. . .

Let's begin with John's gospel:

John opens his Gospel with the "Word," which in Greek philosophy was the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe, which John declares is the recently despised and crucified man, Jesus of Nazareth, who is the eternal Logos, source of all wisdom and power, and who became flesh in order to reveal God to us.

In the beginning was the Word--the Word is eternal (see Jn 17:5, 24; 1Jn 1:1-3),
which Word was with God--distinct from the Father, personality (personhood)
and which word was God-deity of the Word who is distinct from the Father,
through him--male personhood,
all things were made--creator (Col 1:13-17),
in him was life--all life in creation is in and through him (Col 1:17),
the life was the light of men--the Word revealing,
the Word became flesh (Jn 1:14)--incarnation,
which incarnation reveals the Word to be God's Son, the only begotten of the Father (Jn 1:14),
to which Heb 1:3-4 testifies.

Then what do you conclude from what Jesus states about himself?

He often refers to three, Father, Holy Spirit, and Son (himself) in his many claims about himself; e.g.,
he came down from heaven (Jn 3:13, 6:38, 42, 62, 8:58, 17:5, 24; 1Jn 1:1-4),
from glory (John 17:5, John 16:28) where he was before (John 6:62),
"before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), and
was sent by God (Jn 5:36-40, 10:36, 13:3, 16:28),
possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22; Jn 13:3, 13)
to die as a ransom for the sins of many (Mt 20:28, 26:28; Jn 10:11)
with power to forgive sin (Mt 9:2-6),
to conquer Satan (Jn 12:31; Lk 10:18; Mk 1:23-26, 5:6-13),
to speak for God (Jn 7:16, 8:25-28, 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10; Lk 9:35, 10:16),
and to judge all mankind (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48; Mt 25:31-33),
as the exclusive (barring all others) way to God (Jn 14:6),
the source of all truth and life (Jn 1:4, 14:6, 5:25-26, 6:40),
the decisive factor in the eternal destiny of every man (Jn 3:18-19, 36; 5:24, 6:40, 8:24-25),
equal with God--doing what God does (Jn 5:18-19, 8:19, 12:44-45, 14:7-9, 16:15, 17:10),
--as the Father works, so the Son works (miracles) - (Jn 5:17),
--as the Father gives life, so the Son gives life (Jn 5:21),
--as the Father is Judge, so the Son is Judge (Jn 5:22),
--as the Father is to be honored, so the Son is to be honored (Jn 5:23),
--as the Father has life in himself, so the Son has life in himself (Jn 5:26)
--as the Father sends with authority and power, so the Son sends with authority and power (Jn 20:21)
--as the Father makes law, so the Son makes law (Mt 5:24-47, 12:7-8, 19:9, 21:23-27,ch 23, Lk 6:5)
--as the Father confers the kingdom, so the Son confers the kingdom (Lk 22:29),
empowering the apostle to speak for him, as well as for God (Lk 10:16; Jn 13:20),
to recall and understand all things correctly (Jn 14:26, 16:13-15; Lk 24:48-49), and
speaking exactly what God told him to say when he made these claims about himself (Jn 12:49).

Jesus is saying in these claims that he is no less than God. And this is the way the Jews understood him (Mk 2:3-7; Jn 6:41-42, 10:30-33, 5:18, 8:58-59, 19:7), which is why they killed him.

I don't remember answering your post on this topic, and it is ok that you replied, but it is all out of the context of the post to which I did reply. Point being in that post I "think" I remember that he was talking about when Jesus was walking on the earth as the man, Jesus, therefore I would not think any of your references would apply to that context. From what I know about that is he had laid aside the privilege, if I can use that term, of using His power and authority as a man, and I would use this text to show that: Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

I will only show one more verse which should put the capstone on the fact that He fully walked only as the man, Jesus even though He was the Son of God and the 2nd of the Trinity of God, John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory "that I had with you "before the world existed". I added the " ". I almost sure you will agree with what I posted.

iwbswiaihl · Jun 14, 2022

Fervent said:
When I speak of Jesus' nature I am referring only to his human nature. Denying that Jesus' human nature is the same human nature as ordinary humans have is the ancient heresy of docetism. Hebrews 2:17 is the most explicit statement of Jesus sharing in an identical human nature, but there are plenty of other Scripture that show it. Calvinism is not the only thread of modern Christianity guilty of this brand of docetism, it is common among all who accept the Augustinian view of the fall unmodified which is built on a mistranslation and speculation around why infants were baptized in his day.

Reading your reply, I see that you were replying that you thought I was saying that Jesus had a different nature while walking as a man than did the other human race, at least I think that is what you are saying, if not, I believe what this Ph 2:5-11 says is true, so I did go back and read my post to which I was replying, and do agree one could think that, but my answers would show that I did not agree with the one was replying to. My answer even confused me as I read it, so I can see why you may have though that, but my answer and scripture I HOPE showed that I truly do believe He laid that aside when He walked as man, I even posted in one of my passages this from Phil 2 which is below. Sorry about that wording.

Let me post this from Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

bmjackson · Jun 14, 2022

Der Alte said:
We usually think of someone mature "sinning" but have you ever seen a sweet little toddler stand there and lie? I as a parent hear a crash in the next room, I run in and there is something broken on the floor. I asked my sweet little innocent toddler, "What happened, did you do this?" And that sweet little toddler stands there shaking his head saying "I didn't do it."

This has been studied by psychologists who say that it starts around four years of age. They did a test and left a toddler sitting at a table with some sweets saying wait till I get back and you can have some. Watching through a two way mirror they see the child take a sweet or two. The three year olds will say yes I did take one when asked but after that age they will usually lie.

Clare73 · Jun 14, 2022

misput said:
Obviously Adam was

"Obviously" is never the ground for Biblical teaching.

Only what the NT presents is ground for Biblical teaching.

Adam was not a sinner before he disobeyed God and neither is any other man.

It's not about being a "sinner," it's about being guilty in God's economy.

A fleshly nature is not a fallen nature.

Paul uses "flesh" to mean the fallen nature, not the nature Adam was given at his creation.

Clare73 · Jun 14, 2022

misput said:
Actually my issue is with God and I do not believe He considers man to be a sinner until he knowingly and willfully sins, "is drawn away by his own lust". Obviously my issue is not with you because you are just someone in cyber space that I enjoy debating with : )

Which has nothing to do with Paul's use of "flesh" to refer to the fallen nature of Adam, not the nature of Adam before the fall.

Clare73 · Jun 14, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
I don't remember answering your post on this topic, and it is ok that you replied, but it is all out of the context of the post to which I did reply. Point being in that post I "think" I remember that he was talking about when Jesus was walking on the earth as the man, Jesus, therefore I would not think any of your references would apply to that context.

All of my references are the words of Jesus himself in the context of his earthly life.

From what I know about that is he had laid aside the privilege, if I can use that term,
of using His power and authority as a man,

He lay aside his glory (John 17:5), not his divinity.

We see him using his divine power (miracles, forgiveness of sin) and authority (Matthew 5:21-48) throughout the NT.
Jesus could not rid himself of his divinity and still be the only begotten Son of God.

and I would use this text to show that: Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

I will only show one more verse which should put the capstone on the fact that He fully walked only as the man, Jesus even though He was the Son of God and the 2nd of the Trinity of God, John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory "that I had with you "before the world existed". I added the " ". I almost sure you will agree with what I posted.

Clare73 · Jun 14, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
I don't remember answering your post on this topic, and it is ok that you replied, but
it is all out of the context of the post to which I did reply.

Your specific request was:
Would you show that to me about the Divine nature being active in Him when He walked as man: I would like to see that expressed in the bible."

And that is the request with which I complied.

Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth had a divine nature as well as a human nature?

Point being in that post I "think" I remember that he was talking about when Jesus was walking on the earth as the man, Jesus, therefore I would not think any of your references would apply to that context. From what I know about that is he had laid aside the privilege, if I can use that term, of using His power and authority as a man, and I would use this text to show that: Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

I will only show one more verse which should put the capstone on the fact that He fully walked only as the man, Jesus even though He was the Son of God and the 2nd of the Trinity of God, John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory "that I had with you "before the world existed". I added the " ". I almost sure you will agree with what I posted.

Please show the Biblical error in my post #1316 regarding Jesus of Nazareth's personal claims to be divine.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 14, 2022

I had a fairly wild thought last night about the all-knowingness of God. In the following passage from Irenaeus, we see that God knows all things.

God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

Yet from the bible the Son, does not.

Mar_13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

This thought to me is quite revolutionary. Because it allows for an explanation of the foreknowledge of God, yet restricted knowledge at the same time. Jesus who is no less God, even God of the OT. As we see here:

Luk_13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

We see in the bible that there are times when God did not know all, but which part of the Godhead is speaking, is it Jesus?

Gen_6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

And

Gen 18:20-21 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

We see in the OT often times the Angel of the LORD (God’s messenger), being called God.

Jdg_13:22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!"

Is the messenger Jesus? Jesus is no less the creator, no less God. But in knowledge, He is possibly, to a degree, limited.

Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

So according to all the passages from the Church Fathers, man has genuine free will, is not cohered or fated by God. We can be sure God is not selecting some for life and other for damnation, that is man’s choosing. But the Father may still have perfect foreknowledge, a knowledge He shares from time to time with man.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Ignoring for the purposes of this answer that an early church member writing something does not necessarily represent the early church, I point out your waste of effort in responding:

You continue to promote the notion that Calvinism denies the ability to choose or reject God. You are still mistaken. We all consistently choose to reject God, by choice, according to our own corrupt will, until God changes our will.

We also disdain the notion that some are intrinsically better or worse than others. It is your claim that some choose God without God choosing them, and regenerating them, while others do not, which is to lay the merit for that choice at the feet of the individual chooser, necessarily implying that the one who chooses God is intrinsically better than the others.

I think that reconciling God choosing us, which is true, and we choosing Him which is also true, is next to impossible with our finite minds. It is a mystery. In our minds they are contradictory, and theologians go from one extreme to the other because they think they have to believe that one is true and the other is not. That is why we have extreme Calvinism and extreme Arminianism. Pelagius tried to work it out and utter failed going into heresy with his thinking. Even though Calvin was and is one of the best systematic theologians, I don't think he was able to satisfactorily work it out, and he probably knew it and did the best he could. But Calvin is not God, and neither are the rest of us. We can see this given the thousands of threads and posts arguing about predestination and free choice since Christian Forums began many years ago.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Even the phrase, "God lives in an ever-present state" which, yes, you disagree with, demonstrates that you didn't get my point. I don't say he lives in an ever-present state. I do say that one's need to consider him that way is to give validity to human conceptions, and not to God's supremacy. GOD is the default fact. Time, within which we reside and to which we are subjected, is not default fact. God does not reside there, nor is he subject to it, though he can visit it.

I have always maintained that the difference between time and eternity is that our time is measured by the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun. But if we got into a starship and went out into the galaxy away from the solar system, and let's say all our chronometers broke down and we could no longer measure the time, we would be left with just going from one event to another. We wouldn't stop existing and doing things, but we would no longer be conscious of minutes, hours or days, because we would have no way of measuring them. God lives in eternity where there is no measurement of time. He doesn't need it because eternity will never end, so He doesn't have to worry that He doesn't have enough time to do what He plans to do. This is why 1000 years is just a minute to God because He doesn't possess a clock! But He still is aware of the past, and He goes from one event to another as He works out HIs plans and purposes for the future. I believe that He knows the future because the Bible says He is omniscient and has foreknowledge. How that is possible, we don't know, because He is God and we ain't.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
Your choice, but you limit God by your understanding. This is the only statement you made that I would agree with: I don't believe that God has predetermined anyone to hell. The invitation to be saved is open to all. Although myriads of souls will reject Christ, myriads will receive Him. Those who reject Him will know at the Judgment that it was because of their choice that they will be facing the eternal wrath of God.

You say this: "Although God knows the past, present, and future, I am sure that He does not exist in a simultaneous past/present/future state. No one can exist in that state. And a God who exists in that state is not the God of the Bible". I am not quite sure your meaning that He does not exist in a simultaneous past/present/future state, I would think He being Spirit can see or be/ in all these at the same time in knowledge or present seeing as how He can be anywhere He decides to be/ He sees the invisible, and that imaginary God who exists would not be God because there is no other God such as that or could be, I can't believe I am even making this statement: the bible says there is no other God.

You do need to reconsider what the bible actually says about who God actually is, omnipotent, all omniscience and omnipresent. Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Eph 1:9-11 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

Rom 11:33-34 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”

Dan 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM.

You have the choice to believe the word of God or not!

You have to use your common sense to see that God goes from one event to another to achieve His plans and purposes. The past to us, is the same past to God and although He knows the future, He is working to bring us to that future where we will be rejoicing with Him in glory. But He is not actually at that future yet. He still shares the same present that we do.

I know that God can do all things and there is nothing impossible to Him. But we can go to loony tunes extremes in our view of God that make Him someone so koo koo bananatown that it is impossible to fellowship with Him. Someone who lives in a simultaneous ever-present state is more science fiction than Bible. He would be nothing but a still photograph, frozen in time.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
Its a shame from my perspective that you did not show any proof from the bible. Especially that Jesus had a Divine nature! Trying to say what I know that the bible teaches about Jesus nature while walking on earth as man is surely HOLY GROUND, will try, not desiring to be wrong on any point, here goes: Jesus while He walked on earth had laid aside the attributes of the Godhead, meaning He walked and followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit just as a man, Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. To demonstrate this: John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me".
John 14:31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here. He walked by faith, just as we must walk by faith, looking above at the Phil 2 verses, like in parts 6 He thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation and took upon himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of a man(men). 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Everything he did as a man, was limited to the ability of man, he walked by faith, grew in the knowledge as a man, Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. John 8:29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” This should suffice for my point, Jesus laid aside the divine knowledge and walked as man, by faith, sinless in actions, which demonstration that He indeed was spotless, never committed a sin, thus John the Baptist called Him the Lamb(spotless) of God who takes away the sin of world. When He died as a man He had never sinned and thus paid the sin debt for the sins of the world, all the sins of a believer was forgiven because of His payment for our sins, Ps 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. Isa 43:25 “I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins. 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Please look at these verses and reconsider the limitations that your view place on the ALL KNOWING GOD OF THE SCRIPTURES.

The very name "Immanuel" means God with us. The reason why the Jewish leaders were so upset with Jesus is that He made it clear that He was God. Cobbling verses together out of context doesn't convince me of anything.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

John Mullally said:
Another way of looking at it is that the Holy Spirit works in concert with the Gospel preaching but not in an irresistible manner as Calvinist teach. The sinner's free will cooperation with the Holy Spirit results in both remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit. That is why Peter is able to promise remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit to those who Repent and are baptized. Salvation and what Calvinist refer to as regeneration are not two separate events.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them

And this Gospel call is not reserved for a select group of people.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

This is echoed in Mark 16:16:

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Late Add: Its not that the Work of the Holy Spirit starts after the sinner believes. The work of the Holy Spirit is in concert with the preaching of the Gospel. If the sinner cooperates, the work of the Holy Spirit results in both the new birth and salvation. Acts 17:51 says that men can resist the Holy Spirit.

It shows that there is a lot of truth in both Calvinism and Arminianism. So I think that it is not best to go to extremes in either way. I believe that the priority is that we believe God's promises and act on them and then see as we look back how God has so wonderfully planned our way for us.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

Clare73 said:
Actually, that is not Biblically correct.

God can work in the disposition (which no man can), which governs the will, giving one to prefer his will, which they then "freely choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what they prefer, like," which is the Biblical meaning of "free will."

The mystery is that we live according to our free personal decision making, but when we look back and review the past, we see evidence of God's wonderful plans being worked out in our lives. It is as if He planned our way for us, and yet we chose it for ourselves. I don't think we will ever be able to work that out fully.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

Clare73 said:
Are you saying Jesus was born with a fallen human nature or, as the second Adam (Romans 5:14;
1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49), he was born with a sinless nature as was the first Adam?

The former is heresy.

No. Adam was created perfect, as was the rest of creation. God looked at His creation and saw that it was "very, very, good." That was perfection in God's view. Therefore Adam had a perfect human nature, being in the image of God. He lost that perfect nature at the Fall, and was no longer in the perfect image of God.

Jesus had a perfect human nature because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. That is why He is called the Second Adam. And He also had His Divine nature, because He never gave that up, as the Word-Faith teachers claim. He humbled himself as a servant, but He never ceased from being God. So He had two natures in Him. He was and still is, the perfect God-man. His humanity enabled Him to be the perfect sacrifice for sin without spot and blemish, and His Divinity enabled Him to bear the eternal wrath of God for the three hours He suffered on the Cross until the full debt for sin was paid. Only God could bear the full weight of the wrath of God toward every sinner in the world from Adam to the coming of Christ in just three hours. If Jesus was just human, He would have been instantly vaporised.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
Would you show that to me about the Divine nature being active in Him when He walked as man: I would like to see that expressed in the bible.

He walked on water, controlled the weather, fed five thousand people with five small loaves and two fish, and was transfigured in the presence of Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration. No more human being could have achieved those things. He was not just an ordinary human empowered by the Holy Spirit as the Word-faith teachers say. We are empowered the same Holy Spirit yet we can't do the remarkable miracles that Jesus did.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

Clare73 said:
Jesus was speaking to the apostles, who would be penning the Scriptures and laying the foundation of the church, guaranteeing they would be equipped for that work.
That was not a guarantee to every believer, regardless.

1 Corinthians 2:14 is not the verse which distinguishes the mature understanding of a believer from the immature understanding of a believer.
That is found in such places as 1 Corinthians 3:1-6, 1 Corinthians 12:28; Hebrews 6:1-2, etc.

1 Corinthians 2:14 distinguishes between the believer and the unbeliever.
Not according to the NT, where that refers to spiritual maturity, something which grows (1 Corinthians 3:1-6).

If that were the case, God would not have appointed teachers to the church (1 Corinthians 12:28), nor would there be infants in Christ (1 Corinthians 3:1-6), nor would the writer of Hebrews have been vexed (Hebrews 6:1-2).

There is a difference between being mature in the faith and having a superduper spirituality that causes someone to glow in the dark. We grow in grace and in the knowledge of God. We don't have a "spirituality" of our own. That is New Age occult. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us the mind of Christ. So there is no such thing as "spiritual maturity" in a Christian believer. It is more in a person involved in New Age mysticism.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 14, 2022

Fervent said:
As Athanasius said "What was not assumed was not healed." And, of course, there is Hebrews which says He was like unto his brothers in every way. The "fallen nature" that undergirds the T in tulip leads to a denial of Jesus' actual humanity, and if Jesus was not actually human like everyone else then humanity is not healed. The Manichean influence on Augustine's theology of treating the flesh as evil that persisted until the ruthless precision of Luther and Calvin extending its logical consequences without regard for the historic teachings of the church lead straight to docetism.

So, you don't believe in the virgin birth, and so Jesus was just an ordinary person, corrupted by sin like every other sinner in the world. Okay with your belief in an alternate gospel than the one that Paul preached.

Fervent · Jun 14, 2022

Watchman1 said:
So, you don't believe in the virgin birth, and so Jesus was just an ordinary person, corrupted by sin like every other sinner in the world. Okay with your belief in an alternate gospel than the one that Paul preached.

That's quite the leap. Where did I deny the virgin birth? This is the problem with the "fallen nature" stuff that comes from Augustine not the Bible, it leads either to a docetic view where Jesus was not actually human or a psuedo-nestorianism where Jesus humanity is nothing but a tool of the divine.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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