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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Presbyterian Continuist

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When I consider the nature and character of God I go by just what the Bible says about Him. If you can find any clear reference that God lives in an ever-present state where the past, present and future are all the same to him, then do it, because I can't.

There are many Scripture references that invite unconverted sinners to come to Christ and receive Him as Saviour. I can't see why He would invite sinners to choose for Christ, if He had already predetermined that they would? Doesn't that work against free personal choice? Why did Joshua tell the Israelites to "choose this day whom you will serve" if God had made their choice already for them. Sounds contradictory to me. Actually, an ever-present God, predeterming people's choices at the same time giving them free choice, sounds like a koo koo bananatown god to me, and not the God of the Bible who does things with sound wisdom and never contradicts Himself. Again, come up with some clear Scriptures that God programs some to be saved and others lost without them having the ability to choose for themselves.

The problem is that when people read into the Bible text things that aren't there (eisegesis) they come up with all sorts of looney tunes stuff.
 
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You may be right. I was guessing he called it gnosticism because he thinks Calvinists claim one cannot be saved without understanding that the Gospel is according to Calvinism (i.e. "special knowledge".
There is a point at which the Holy Spirit enlightens the seeker with the truth of the Gospel and gives them "saving faith" to receive Christ and move on to the transformation of conversion to Christ. I'm not totally sure at which point that is. I can't believe that it is before the person believes the Gospel. I think it starts with the preaching of the Gospel, the person hearing and believing it, then the enlightenment happens. When the person is enlightened by the Holy Spirit he receives Christ as Saviour and then as he continues to seek the Lord, the transformation takes place. This transformation is called regeneration or conversion. I think that is the process, and it fits in with Calvinist teaching,

Arminian teaching involves the preaching of the Gospel, the person believing it, choosing to receive Christ as Saviour, as a result he is regenerated and then receives the enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. This means that the work of the Holy Spirit is the result of the person's choice for Christ, and that growth in grace is dependent on continuance of right choices.
 
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They say that to eat an elephant one does it one bite at a time. You have provided a very interesting quote, but I feel like I was being trampled by the elephant as I worked through it.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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They say that to eat an elephant one does it one bite at a time. You have provided a very interesting quote, but I feel like I was being trampled by the elephant as I worked through it.

I hope you do not mean my approach is like an elephant, trampling you. If it is forgive me. I have been scouring the earliest Church Fathers, to see if they are in agreement with Irenaeus. I found all early Church fathers were in agreement with the free will argument. These are all the people within the generation of or shortly after Paul. They also discuss the passage in Romans 9, but don't understand it to be talking about fixed salvation, but rather a picture of faith. I will put one of them here after the free will quotes.

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. (Cont.)


Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.


For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.


Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 1-25


Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith.


Ch 56-50


Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Barabus - Epistle 2 Chap. XIII. — Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.

But let us see if this people134 is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. (Gen_25:21) Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen_25:23) You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” (Gen_48:11, Gen_48:9) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh135 should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,135 for he is my first-born son.” (Gen_48:18) And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” (Gen_48:19) Ye see on whom he laid136 [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed,137 it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.” (Gen_15:6, Gen_17:5; comp. Rom_4:3)
 
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bmjackson

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I think that Hagar, with her newly aquired position of having some power due to her pregnancy, began to retaliate to being raped by Abraham (a slave girl did not have the choice to consent) which Sarah found intolerable so wanted her out. Abraham could not have been feeling to bad about it as he sent her and his son off onto the streets with no support or home which he could have arranged being a rich man.
 
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I was just joking. I couldn't help it. You are sharing valuable information, and it is appreciated.
 
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bmjackson

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Going back to the meaning of regeneration, scripture says: John 3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So Jesus is saying that there cannot be a regeneration of fleshy birth but in the spiritual realm there must be a second birth or in other words, a second work of grace. In the first, one is imputed with righteousness, in the second, one is imparted with righteousness and most believers are still in the first.
 
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The story of Hagar is a foreshadow of Jesus and the Gospel, if you look up the different on-line explanations.
 
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Where is that in the Bible?
 
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Where is that in the Bible?
Your reference talks about natural birth, and then the need to be born again of the Spirit of God. I don't see any reference to a second spiritual birth.
 
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bmjackson

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Where is that in the Bible?

We see it in the story of Abraham, where he was imputed with righteousness in Genesis 15 but continued in his sinfulness: getting his wife to lie for him and lying himself to save his own life, utterly failing at his first duty of a husband to protect his wife, his treatment of Hagar, his failure to help his nephew when Sodom fell but when he gets to Mount Moriah God does a great work in him so that thereafter he does what is right in God's eyes in being willing to sacrifice his son and in buying the land for his wife's burial instead of accepting it as a 'free' gift (obviously with strings)
 
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bmjackson

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Your reference talks about natural birth, and then the need to be born again of the Spirit of God. I don't see any reference to a second spiritual birth.

Born again so another spiritual birth as explained in the verse quoted.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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FutureAndAHope

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If by "fleshly" nature, you mean fallen nature , the answer is yes, Adam did not have a fallen nature until he sinned.

I know this has been a common understanding, even I thought it. Not due to scripture, but due to tradition.

However in reading the Early Church Fathers, on the topic of Predestination. I found the following quote:

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 3 Ch 21-End

Chap. XXII. — Christ Assumed Actual Flesh, Conceived and Born of the Virgin.

3. Wherefore Luke points out that the pedigree which traces the generation of our Lord back to Adam contains seventy-two generations, connecting the end with the beginning, and implying that it is He who has summed up in Himself all nations dispersed from Adam downwards, and all languages and generations of men, together with Adam himself. Hence also was Adam himself termed by Paul “the figure of Him that was to come,” (Rom_5:14) because the Word, the Maker of all things, had formed beforehand for Himself the future dispensation of the human race, connected with the Son of God; God having predestined that the first man should be of an animal nature, with this view, that he might be saved by the spiritual One. For inasmuch as He had a pre-existence as a saving Being, it was necessary that what might be saved should also be called into existence, in order that the Being who saves should not exist in vain.

So the early church traditions are not like today's.
 
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roman2819

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So Sarai said to Abram, “Now behold, the Lord has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I will obtain children through her.” And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. .... Abram’s wife Sarai took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife. [Genesis 16:1-3]
 
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bmjackson

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So Abraham put his 'wife' out on the street? A slave girl does what she is instructed. She is unable to give her consent. Rape.
 
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Born again so another spiritual birth as explained in the verse quoted.
No. The verse doesn't talk about being born again twice. A person is converted to Christ once. He then has the indwelling Holy Spirit and becomes fully spiritual from that time onward. There is no second work of grace.
 
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bmjackson

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No. The verse doesn't talk about being born again twice. A person is converted to Christ once. He then has the indwelling Holy Spirit and becomes fully spiritual from that time onward. There is no second work of grace.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, to be born again, it must be another birth from the same substance. As Jesus says, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You can't mix them.
 
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6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, to be born again, it must be another birth from the same substance. As Jesus says, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You can't mix them.
That is not what that verse says. You are twisting the meaning. That which is born of flesh is flesh is natural birth by which we are all born into the world. That which is born of the Spirit is the new birth that converts us to Christ. If you read the context you will see that Nicodemus asked Jesus if we go back into our mother's womb and be born all over again naturally. Jesus' answer to him was what He said in verse 6. You can't take one verse out of its context and make up your own theology out of it.
 
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