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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

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Here you make an unsupported assertion. You think it common sense, I suppose, but it is not a true statement: "predetermination would take the power of choice away from the person, and therefore would contradict many of His promises in Scripture. Predetermination and personal choice are contradictions in fact. No one can predetermine an action for a person and give him the power to choose at the same time."

You make a similar mistake in what you say about God's ability (or, actually, God's person): "He does not exist in a simultaneous past/present/future state."

You are looking at it backwards. If he is God, he is not subject to any temporal principles from outside himself. I expect you consider it self-contradictory to say "simultaneously past/present/future", and I agree, it is. But these are human conceptions; God's ways are not our ways. God is not a temporal creature like us, but he can visit any time he likes.

So it is with predetermination. Ignoring for now the implications people draw from the concepts they imagine from "predetermine", such as where they draw the 'equals' sign in "double-predestination" —to predetermine only means "to decide ahead". We say he is (at least) omniscient, yet, if he merely knew all things, but created anyway, knowing what was going to happen, he thus caused all things to happen, via the process we refer to as the chain of causation. Now, I'm not saying that is all there is to it, but I am putting the thoughts in this order to demonstrate the ludicrousness of the notion that he does not predetermine.

Other things you do not mention here, you no doubt consider logical, for example, that the Command implies the ability to obey. It does not. Neither does God deciding mean that either option could actually happen. Nor does God deciding mean that man has no choice. It only means that man chooses what his inclinations lead him to —to what he actually prefers, even if only for that instant of choice. He sees what to him are two possibilities, but in fact, only the one he is going to choose is going to happen. One is indeed possible, the other one only looks possible. So he chooses between the two.
When I consider the nature and character of God I go by just what the Bible says about Him. If you can find any clear reference that God lives in an ever-present state where the past, present and future are all the same to him, then do it, because I can't.

There are many Scripture references that invite unconverted sinners to come to Christ and receive Him as Saviour. I can't see why He would invite sinners to choose for Christ, if He had already predetermined that they would? Doesn't that work against free personal choice? Why did Joshua tell the Israelites to "choose this day whom you will serve" if God had made their choice already for them. Sounds contradictory to me. Actually, an ever-present God, predeterming people's choices at the same time giving them free choice, sounds like a koo koo bananatown god to me, and not the God of the Bible who does things with sound wisdom and never contradicts Himself. Again, come up with some clear Scriptures that God programs some to be saved and others lost without them having the ability to choose for themselves.

The problem is that when people read into the Bible text things that aren't there (eisegesis) they come up with all sorts of looney tunes stuff.
 
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You may be right. I was guessing he called it gnosticism because he thinks Calvinists claim one cannot be saved without understanding that the Gospel is according to Calvinism (i.e. "special knowledge".
There is a point at which the Holy Spirit enlightens the seeker with the truth of the Gospel and gives them "saving faith" to receive Christ and move on to the transformation of conversion to Christ. I'm not totally sure at which point that is. I can't believe that it is before the person believes the Gospel. I think it starts with the preaching of the Gospel, the person hearing and believing it, then the enlightenment happens. When the person is enlightened by the Holy Spirit he receives Christ as Saviour and then as he continues to seek the Lord, the transformation takes place. This transformation is called regeneration or conversion. I think that is the process, and it fits in with Calvinist teaching,

Arminian teaching involves the preaching of the Gospel, the person believing it, choosing to receive Christ as Saviour, as a result he is regenerated and then receives the enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. This means that the work of the Holy Spirit is the result of the person's choice for Christ, and that growth in grace is dependent on continuance of right choices.
 
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That is not what the early church thought. Irenaeus (80 years after the apostle Paul) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. He also specifically states "If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others?", see the full passage below.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
They say that to eat an elephant one does it one bite at a time. You have provided a very interesting quote, but I feel like I was being trampled by the elephant as I worked through it. :)
 
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FutureAndAHope

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They say that to eat an elephant one does it one bite at a time. You have provided a very interesting quote, but I feel like I was being trampled by the elephant as I worked through it. :)

I hope you do not mean my approach is like an elephant, trampling you. If it is forgive me. I have been scouring the earliest Church Fathers, to see if they are in agreement with Irenaeus. I found all early Church fathers were in agreement with the free will argument. These are all the people within the generation of or shortly after Paul. They also discuss the passage in Romans 9, but don't understand it to be talking about fixed salvation, but rather a picture of faith. I will put one of them here after the free will quotes.

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. (Cont.)


Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.


For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.


Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 1-25


Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith.


Ch 56-50


Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Barabus - Epistle 2 Chap. XIII. — Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.

But let us see if this people134 is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. (Gen_25:21) Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen_25:23) You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” (Gen_48:11, Gen_48:9) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh135 should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,135 for he is my first-born son.” (Gen_48:18) And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” (Gen_48:19) Ye see on whom he laid136 [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed,137 it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.” (Gen_15:6, Gen_17:5; comp. Rom_4:3)
 
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bmjackson

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Sarah was angered when Hagar became arrogant when she was able to bear a child for Abraham. Scripture does not tell us how Abraham felt but he must had been in a predicament, feeling confused, upset and torn. Wouldn't it agony to send away someone who carried his flesh and blood? But the Bible does not say all these.

I think that Hagar, with her newly aquired position of having some power due to her pregnancy, began to retaliate to being raped by Abraham (a slave girl did not have the choice to consent) which Sarah found intolerable so wanted her out. Abraham could not have been feeling to bad about it as he sent her and his son off onto the streets with no support or home which he could have arranged being a rich man.
 
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I hope you do not mean my approach is like an elephant, trampling you. If it is forgive me. I have been scouring the earliest Church Fathers, to see if they are in agreement with Irenaeus. I found all early Church fathers were in agreement with the free will argument. These are all the people within the generation of or shortly after Paul. They also discuss the passage in Romans 9, but don't understand it to be talking about fixed salvation, but rather a picture of faith. I will put one of them here after the free will quotes.

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. (Cont.)


Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.


For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.


Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 1-25


Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith.


Ch 56-50


Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Barabus - Epistle 2 Chap. XIII. — Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.

But let us see if this people134 is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. (Gen_25:21) Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen_25:23) You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” (Gen_48:11, Gen_48:9) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh135 should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,135 for he is my first-born son.” (Gen_48:18) And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” (Gen_48:19) Ye see on whom he laid136 [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed,137 it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.” (Gen_15:6, Gen_17:5; comp. Rom_4:3)
I was just joking. I couldn't help it. You are sharing valuable information, and it is appreciated.
 
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bmjackson

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Going back to the meaning of regeneration, scripture says: John 3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So Jesus is saying that there cannot be a regeneration of fleshy birth but in the spiritual realm there must be a second birth or in other words, a second work of grace. In the first, one is imputed with righteousness, in the second, one is imparted with righteousness and most believers are still in the first.
 
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I think that Hagar, with her newly aquired position of having some power due to her pregnancy, began to retaliate to being raped by Abraham (a slave girl did not have the choice to consent) which Sarah found intolerable so wanted her out. Abraham could not have been feeling to bad about it as he sent her and his son off onto the streets with no support or home which he could have arranged being a rich man.
The story of Hagar is a foreshadow of Jesus and the Gospel, if you look up the different on-line explanations.
 
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Going back to the meaning of regeneration, scripture says: John 3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So Jesus is saying that there cannot be a regeneration of fleshy birth but in the spiritual realm there must be a second birth or in other words, a second work of grace. In the first, one is imputed with righteousness, in the second, one is imparted with righteousness and most believers are still in the first.
Where is that in the Bible?
 
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Where is that in the Bible?
Your reference talks about natural birth, and then the need to be born again of the Spirit of God. I don't see any reference to a second spiritual birth.
 
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bmjackson

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Where is that in the Bible?

We see it in the story of Abraham, where he was imputed with righteousness in Genesis 15 but continued in his sinfulness: getting his wife to lie for him and lying himself to save his own life, utterly failing at his first duty of a husband to protect his wife, his treatment of Hagar, his failure to help his nephew when Sodom fell but when he gets to Mount Moriah God does a great work in him so that thereafter he does what is right in God's eyes in being willing to sacrifice his son and in buying the land for his wife's burial instead of accepting it as a 'free' gift (obviously with strings)
 
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bmjackson

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Your reference talks about natural birth, and then the need to be born again of the Spirit of God. I don't see any reference to a second spiritual birth.

Born again so another spiritual birth as explained in the verse quoted.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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FutureAndAHope

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If by "fleshly" nature, you mean fallen nature , the answer is yes, Adam did not have a fallen nature until he sinned.

I know this has been a common understanding, even I thought it. Not due to scripture, but due to tradition.

However in reading the Early Church Fathers, on the topic of Predestination. I found the following quote:

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 3 Ch 21-End

Chap. XXII. — Christ Assumed Actual Flesh, Conceived and Born of the Virgin.

3. Wherefore Luke points out that the pedigree which traces the generation of our Lord back to Adam contains seventy-two generations, connecting the end with the beginning, and implying that it is He who has summed up in Himself all nations dispersed from Adam downwards, and all languages and generations of men, together with Adam himself. Hence also was Adam himself termed by Paul “the figure of Him that was to come,” (Rom_5:14) because the Word, the Maker of all things, had formed beforehand for Himself the future dispensation of the human race, connected with the Son of God; God having predestined that the first man should be of an animal nature, with this view, that he might be saved by the spiritual One. For inasmuch as He had a pre-existence as a saving Being, it was necessary that what might be saved should also be called into existence, in order that the Being who saves should not exist in vain.

So the early church traditions are not like today's.
 
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roman2819

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I think that Hagar, with her newly aquired position of having some power due to her pregnancy, began to retaliate to being raped by Abraham (a slave girl did not have the choice to consent) which Sarah found intolerable so wanted her out. Abraham could not have been feeling to bad about it as he sent her and his son off onto the streets with no support or home which he could have arranged being a rich man.

So Sarai said to Abram, “Now behold, the Lord has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I will obtain children through her.” And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. .... Abram’s wife Sarai took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife. [Genesis 16:1-3]
 
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bmjackson

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So Sarai said to Abram, “Now behold, the Lord has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I will obtain children through her.” And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. .... Abram’s wife Sarai took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife. [Genesis 16:1-3]

So Abraham put his 'wife' out on the street? A slave girl does what she is instructed. She is unable to give her consent. Rape.
 
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Born again so another spiritual birth as explained in the verse quoted.
No. The verse doesn't talk about being born again twice. A person is converted to Christ once. He then has the indwelling Holy Spirit and becomes fully spiritual from that time onward. There is no second work of grace.
 
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bmjackson

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No. The verse doesn't talk about being born again twice. A person is converted to Christ once. He then has the indwelling Holy Spirit and becomes fully spiritual from that time onward. There is no second work of grace.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, to be born again, it must be another birth from the same substance. As Jesus says, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You can't mix them.
 
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6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, to be born again, it must be another birth from the same substance. As Jesus says, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You can't mix them.
That is not what that verse says. You are twisting the meaning. That which is born of flesh is flesh is natural birth by which we are all born into the world. That which is born of the Spirit is the new birth that converts us to Christ. If you read the context you will see that Nicodemus asked Jesus if we go back into our mother's womb and be born all over again naturally. Jesus' answer to him was what He said in verse 6. You can't take one verse out of its context and make up your own theology out of it.
 
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