What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'm glad you pointed this out. I looked at the index in my copy, and you're right. I looked in the index of his treatise Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God and he doesn't use them there either.

I also happen to have Calvin's commentaries, as well (I know-it appears as if I'm a huge fan, and at one time I was). Here's something wild, he skips 1 John 4:8 altogether, straight from 7 to 9. ^_^ Here is what he says at the end of v.7

Away, then, with that foolish gloss respecting unformed faith. For when any one separates faith from love, it is the same as though he attempted to take away heat from the sun.

Well, what could that mean? He tells us because he does comment on 4:16:

God is love. This is as it were the minor proposition in an argument; for from faith to love he reasons in this way: By faith God dwells in us, and God is love; then, wherever God abides, love ought to be there. Hence it follows that love is necessarily connected with faith.

Calvin flat out rejects that God loves all. It looks like God's love is only in relation to those predetermined to salvation, i.e., faith. I don't know if Calvin ever comes out and rejects love as an essential attribute of God, but it would seem what he says here would support such a rejection. Plus, for Calvin, the only aspect of God that really matters is the divine will, which is inscrutable. Ironically, I don't think he ever uses the word "sovereignty" in the Institutes.

I agree that this absence of love as an essential attribute that is in relation to all is a problem. It's no wonder Calvinists are so adamant that God does not love all. Those passages only refer to those who have faith.
Yes thanks for the comments. Calvin was a brilliant man no doubt and very meticulous and precise . He knew the Bible inside and out. And for that very reason he was well aware that God being Love was his Achilles Heal with his problematic dogma. God is Love counters tulip, the Calvinist view of Sovereignty and is a stumbling block with their doctrines.

My study the past few years deep diving into the Tri-Unity of Gods Being has opened my eyes to Gods love as a primary one based upon the Eternal/Immutable nature of Gods relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit based upon love. God is Self Sufficient and has no needs outside of Himself. Most other attributes we discuss about God have to do with His Creation and the Fall. But once we examine who God is at His core we get a better understanding of His character and nature. And when we read about the description of love in the N.T. we discover Gods real love for all mankind, not just a select few. Its a universal love for all mankind, an atonement that has in it a provision for all and a free will given by God to man to choose Christ or reject Him. A love that is not forced, for that is a narcissistic love not a sacrificial love. And we know the love of God which sent His only Son to be the sacrifice/atonement for the sins of the world.

Only a loving God creates man that can freely choose to love Him with no coercion, force, predetermination or violation of mans will. Calvinism does not teach that kind of Loving God.

hope this helps !!!
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

An essay:
Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.
From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD.


Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our created spirit life. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, as Rom 8:29 just said predestination means and as per Matthew 7:21 – 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and knowing about has no love.

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain, He never knew them.

This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?

cntd
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
cntd

1. Merit based Election before Creation?
The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:

Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.

Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before life" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.

2. Election to Damnation before Creation Serves HIS Purpose?
Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because this is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone. The explanation goes something like this:

The loved ones' eternal joy is directly proportional to their knowledge, appreciation, of GOD and the wonderfulness of their salvation. Therefore an increase of good comes forth from the eternal damnation of some persons because by their damnation, that is, the outcome of Adam's decision to sin, and HIS "before life" decision not to love these persons, two types of eternal blessings supposedly occur for the rest.

First, a fuller appreciation of several of God's attributes is made possible, which opportunity wouldn't be possible if all lived forever, that is, if HE "before life" loved them all. These attributes are usually said to be HIS justness (retribution, wrath) holiness and omnipotence.

Secondly, the truth regarding the elects' end apart from Christ's salvation is made fully known, which full knowledge makes possible the fuller appreciation of HIS salvation, for this salvation (hence, HIS mercy too) would not be so fully appreciated without the graphic depiction of both states of after earthly life.

Others even go so far as to say that their damnation is absolutely necessary in order that the purpose of GOD be able to be fulfilled by HIS elect, and they offer this explanation:

In order to live in eternity with GOD, we must live fully in the truth, which necessity necessitates having a perfect appreciation of GOD's attributes and HIS salvation, and that this perfect appreciation by HIS elect creatures is made possible first, only through witnessing HIS triumph over and judgement upon HIS enemies, and second, only when HIS perfection and our life in Christ are contrasted with the complete imperfections of the damned and the end we would have had, had HE not saved us.

cntd:
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
cntd

Now, these are very hard positions to hold, for they fail on many accounts.

First, they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.

Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential.

In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless [and the more sinful (or sick) the better].

Third, they both fail to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than the damnation of but one, since it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation, perfection and not the quantity of persons therein.

Fourthly, they both put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD.

cntd:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jesus is YHWH
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
cntd:

Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge/forelove not including everyone can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD does it particularly, we are left with but two conclusions:

We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. [Aside: as I understand it, this is Calvin's failure to understand this doctrine correctly.] GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to pre-conception existence theology, PCE, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest, is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before physical creation) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

Therein is the reason why HE loved some "before this earthly life" and why HE did not love the rest.

Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, (the elect holy angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious (election) to them (His fallen church, His sheep gone astray into sin). Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other eternally evil ones for the Day of Judgement and established them on earth for the correction of the fallen elect.

Now, I ask you, which doctrine is the more scriptural and reasonable and compatible with the attributes of GOD?

cntd
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You're basically saying God elected to create.

No that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying God created and of that creation He elected those whom He foresaw who would love Him.
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
cntd:

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.


This Scripture does not prove that we existed before our conception. The reason I am including it is that I believe that it does not invalidate pre-conception theology, and I am sure a lot of people will think that it and others like it do.

May I submit that when the Scriptures speak of works in relation to our election, they are referring to only our works after we're born, ie, no one was elected on account of any works they would do in this life.

Now, if there is anyone who would like to disagree with me on this and would like to debate whether Paul intended that our pre-life works were also to be included in the works that were excluded as part of the basis of GOD's election, I would be very interested in seeing your argument. I suppose this isn't necessary, but I would like to (first) point out that any such argument must admit to our pre-conception existence.

The second thing I would like to point out is that we were called according to HIS purpose. This must mean so that we could fulfil HIS purpose for us.

But if this is so, then there must be an uncoerced choice on our part if we are ever to have the possibility of glorifying GOD. His purpose for us necessitates a free will choice to join that purpose or it is a tape recorder type of agreement.

Therefore I say that being called according to HIS purpose and grace is almost exactly the same as saying, being called in accord with our uncoerced choice and HIS covenant, and if making that choice is a work, since earthly works are out, then it is the same as saying, Being called in accord with a pre-conception work and HIS gracious covenant with those who per-fore-med that work.

The third thing I would like to point out is that the angels are elected too. 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels...
Angels are a lot different than men (at least, that is what many believe), ie, they do not have what is usually called “racial solidarity”. This means that they have to make all their own choices. No one else can make them for them and they can not be held accountable for someone else's evil choices.

In other words, Adam's choices do not affect them at all (supposedly). Perhaps you would like to tell me on what basis GOD elected only some of them? This question does not get answered very much...sigh.

If it was not on the basis of their individual choices, then they had to be elected before the satanic rebellion, at least. But if GOD's election took place before the satanic rebellion, would this not lead us into the pretty incredulous situation of some unblemished creatures being unjustly UNpredestined to remain in heaven, (or: predestined for Hell)?

And what reasonable basis can we put forward for this situation other than HE simply did not want them to be with HIM forever? This situation does not look too good, does it?

Well then, what if no one was elected before the rebellion, that is, what if GOD's election took place after the rebellion? Then GOD's election took place after they all had made an eternal choice, and presumably that choice would be taken into account when GOD was doing HIS electing. It would have to be if HE was holy and just.

Now, the main thing I am trying to bring out with all of this is that when we just begin to consider the election of angels, we run into some pretty unreasonable implications if we leave out their choice as being a part of the basis of their election, and the only other real alternative necessitates that we accept that their eternal choice was at least a part of the basis of their election.

Peace, Ted
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,050
East Coast
✟830,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
No that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying God created and of that creation He elected those whom He foresaw who would love Him.

Did God create first and then foresee?
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yeah, God "chose to elect" those God foresaw would have faith.

Then HE also foresaw who would not have faith but created them anyway just to end in hell ??? when HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and wants no one to die but all to repent???
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then HE aso foresaw who would not have faith but created them anyway just to end in hell ??? when HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and wants no one to die but all to repent???

Amen hence His grief for those He killed in the flood. He obviously didn’t want to kill them but apparently it was necessary.
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,050
East Coast
✟830,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

Then what I said holds. God simply created the world God chose. Election and predestination have no meaning except God created. It's not like God foresaw and then created, or God created and then foresaw. God just created what God wanted to create. If anything, those who come to faith elected and predestined themselves by choosing. If God foresaw that, it is only because God decided which world to create. But God is not doing anything but creating the world God chose to create. Your position empties those words of meaning, which is fine if that's what you believe.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,113
7,243
Dallas
✟873,884.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then what I said holds. God simply created the world God chose. Election and predestination have no meaning except God created. It's not like God foresaw and then created, or God created and then foresaw. God just created what God wanted to create. If anything, those who come to faith elected and predestined themselves by choosing. If God foresaw that, it is only because God decided which world to create. But God is not doing anything but creating the world God chose to create. Your position empties those words of meaning, which is fine if that's what you believe.

This seems to be getting into things that are not revealed in the scriptures. The Bible doesn’t tell us why God chose to create the world the way He did. All we know is He foresaw those who would choose to love Him before He created anything. As to why He chose to create what He did that’s all purely speculation because it’s not discussed in the scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,050
East Coast
✟830,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
This seems to be getting into things that are not revealed in the scriptures. The Bible doesn’t tell us why God chose to create the world the way He did. All we know is He foresaw those who would choose to love Him before He created anything. As to why He chose to create what He did that’s all purely speculation because it’s not discussed in the scriptures.

I agree, I think the problem is intractable. There is a mystery side to all this that we can't know, i.e. God's side. But the idea that God elects and predestined what God foresaw as free choices is simply God choosing this world and not another. Or, if this world was the only possibility, then human free choice does all the electing and predestining, short of God not creating a world at all.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟303,748.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I could be wrong, but yeah.
Honestly, calvanism boggles the brain, but ummn .... :sorry: m'bad for speaking intosomething I know not of. :blush: haven't been here for a few weeks either and name change so again, m'bad ~Cassia~
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,050
East Coast
✟830,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Honestly, calvanism boggles the brain, but ummn .... :sorry: m'bad for speaking intosomething I know not of. :blush: haven't been here for a few weeks either and name change so again, m'bad ~Cassia~

No worries. I like your new name. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This seems to be getting into things that are not revealed in the scriptures.
...you mean like the suffering, dying, Messiah was not revealed in scripture until...until it was? This was a big lesson for all of us, not just the Pharisees, eh?

The Bible doesn’t tell us why God chose to create the world the way He did.

As to why He chose to create what He did that’s all purely speculation because it’s not discussed in the scriptures.

Is not the heavenly state the culmination of all life? Is not the heavenly state characterized as the marriage of Christ and HIS Church: Revelation 19:6-7 “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready” Is not the sexual union of married people symbolic of the spiritual unity with GOD of those married to GOD?

So: "Why were we made?"

We were made to have a full unity with GOD in a full communion of emotion (love) and communication (telepathy, like the angels enjoy) within all of created reality with GOD and everyone else within the marriage, for eternity.

All doctrine must flow from this revelation to us of HIS purpose.

A marriage that is forced is not a marriage but a rape.
A marriage that is built on tricking the bride into not understanding that she could say no is not a marriage at all but a fraud.

Therefore for HIS purpose for us to enter into the communion of a unity with us called marriage to be real, it must have been as a offered to us as a proposal of marriage which we had the right and understanding to accept or reject by our free will. Those who accepted HIS proposal (and the attenuating promise of salvation if we should ever fall into sin) were chosen to be HIS bride, a promise of marriage called election. Those who rejected HIS proposal of marriage immediately became enslaved to the addicting quality of evil with no chance of salvation as they were rejecting their only hope to be freed from their addiction, that is, they were condemned to banishment from all of created reality to the outer darkness from that second on.

No one was created as evil as HE had no reason or need for evil people in HIS purpose for finding a Bride. HE could not and would never marry an evil person. Those of you who know this to be true must redefine your theologies which mangle this truth to stay reconciled to itself. GOD is love and in HIM is no evil at all.

I champion GOD’s holiness:
- GOD did not need evil to fulfill HIS plan and did not create evil for any reason.

- All evil is creature-created by their true free will.

I champion Our Free will:
- All spirits created in the image of GOD were created with the ability to make true free will decisions and had an equal opportunity and ability to choose for HIM or against HIM.

Peace, Ted
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jesus is YHWH
Upvote 0