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I strongly recommend this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07VTS48L6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It is dirt cheap and gives all the relevant ECF's quotes.
Falls somewhat short of Biblical demonstration giving merit to your assertion of my error in post #445. . .This is why I hang my hat on belief in the Lord, not on any interpretation of man, including me, who chase their tails like a bunch of dogs, no reflection on dogs : )
No, I would not agree to that. For instance it never entered God's Mind to Cause Judah to Offer their children to Molech as a Child Sacrifice. Judah Offered their children to Molech of their own Free Will, not because of the constraining Will of God. Their Will and the Will of God flowed Concurrently as Primary and Secondary Causation. We do not know the Mind of God as to why he determined the Act; but we do know it wasn't as a Child Sacrifice. I tend to think he may have saved people from a future Hitler, etc. But whatsoever reason God had for determining this, we can rest assured it was a good reason...Could you answer my question more plainly? I’ve asked if you believe that God’s sovereign over your choices and actions, which would include that moment where you became “not your average Calvinist.”
Yes or no, then your rational behind the whole point.
Like saying “you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.” I’m not meaning to upset that applecart of definitions, it’s here and it’ll be here for many generations to come, that doesn’t change the fact that God deterministically has his way when I reject Calvinism, and when you embrace what you call Calvinism.
Wouldn’t you agree to that? If you do, then yes, yes you believe that God is sovereign over your actions and choices, mine too.
You wouldn’t want to attribute your coming to Calvinism as a product of your own wisdom, intellect or righteousness, having these things over and above Christians who don’t want Calvinism.
You got it right bubba, makes more sense than anything I have heard on this thread lately : )Calvin taught man are in 2 camps. Those predetermined/predestined to salvation or destruction before creation. Man can only do what was predetermined by God. So God chose most humanity for hell/eternal torment and a few for salvation. They use Jesus words you did not choose Me but I chose you. No one has a free will to choose God. God must draw/drag you first to Him ( against your will ) and regenerate you prior to belief and repentance. This is Calvinism 101 and I taught this for over 4 decades and its wrong. If God is really Love then calvinism is wrong. They will also elevate Gods hate above His love. They focus on the negative aspects of God to defend their beliefs.
In fact in both the Institutes of Calvin and the WCF Gods is Love is missing from the list of Gods attributes. Its obvious why if God is truly Love then their doctrines in tulip and double predestination collapse. Those doctrines are the exact opposite of love.
hope this helps !!!
Judah Offered their children to Molech of their own Free Will, not because of the Will of God.
Their Will and the Will of God flowed Concurrently as Primary and Secondary Causation. We do not know the Mind of God as to why he determined the Act; but we do know it wasn't as a Child Sacrifice.
whatsoever reason God had for determining this, we can rest assured it was a good reason...
Do you believe in the Providence of God?
We can always go back to your discussion. Regarding Providence, do you think God used General Providence to bring the Crucifixion of Christ to fruition?Was that action within the (1) foreknowledge of God and (2) did God chose to create knowing that this would happen? According to Calvinists God knows the future because he has determined the future to be that way.
Gods knowledge (and as a consequence his will that the action be done) can’t be “Concurrently” with the wills of ignorant, finite man. To insist that man’s will is simultaneously happening alongside Gods will, yet God determined this to happen, that makes no sense.
That’s why Calvinists have repurposed words like sovereignty so that they can drive right down to the source, namely the will of God (which even in your own messages supersedes the will of man.)
So, despite horrible events like the sacrifice of children not being “in the mind” of God, God has determined them to happen since before the world began. You can appreciate the seeming futility of applying reason to these views, right?
General providence yes, not meticulous providence. Do you believe in meticulous providence? I’m not sure one answer would be as believable as another, since you seem to have your finger on every button simultaneously, still, we live in hope!
We can always go back to your discussion. Regarding Providence, do you think God used General Providence to bring the Crucifixion of Christ to fruition?
I do; and I think you should say yes...
I think God orchestrated the confrontation and wouldn’t hand His son into their care, not wanting to heal simply that generation, but rather the whole world forever.
We both believe in general providence. Do you believe in meticulous providence? Because if you do, that pulls the rug out from under simple general providence.
The game plan was twofold:I mean, returning to the crucifixion, Jesus does perceive that the crowd would make Him king, so He retreats. And again He knows that if He dropped the use of parables many would turn and be healed,
but that’s not the game plan. The game plan was to harden the crowds heart, not deterministically, but by a ministry of parables and confronting the high earthly powers.
One reason I believe in Meticulous Providence is because Jesus Christ Meticulously orchestrated the Crucifixion himself. For this reason, I think you should also agree in Meticulous Providence...Sure, we can hold two conversations. That means you’ll have to compose a meaningful response to post #525 however.
I think God orchestrated the confrontation and wouldn’t hand His son into their care, not wanting to heal simply that generation, but rather the whole world forever.
We both believe in general providence. Do you believe in meticulous providence? Because if you do, that pulls the rug out from under simple general providence.
I mean, returning to the crucifixion, Jesus does perceive that the crowd would make Him king, so He retreats. And again He knows that if He dropped the use of parables many would turn and be healed, but that’s not the game plan. The game plan was to harden the crowds heart, not deterministically, but by a ministry of parables and confronting the high earthly powers.
So let’s revisit my questions, then we can go from there.
Must be a book not highly valued if its dirt cheap or it would be in much demand, wouldn't it? Reading these last few pages seem as those there are some that place high value on their views not being in the reach of many of us. Of course, I am due to be wrong................Last time I remember being wrong was when I last made a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I strongly recommend this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07VTS48L6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It is dirt cheap and gives all the relevant ECF's quotes.
Must be a book not highly valued if its dirt cheap or it would be in much demand, wouldn't it? Reading these last few pages seem as those there are some that place high value on their views not being in the reach of many of us. Of course, I am due to be wrong................Last time I remember being wrong was when I last made a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Must be a book not highly valued if its dirt cheap or it would be in much demand, wouldn't it? Reading these last few pages seem as those there are some that place high value on their views not being in the reach of many of us. Of course, I am due to be wrong................Last time I remember being wrong was when I last made a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The author, a professor, wants it to be available to everyone.
Must be a book not highly valued if its dirt cheap or it would be in much demand, wouldn't it?
One reason I believe in Meticulous Providence is because Jesus Christ Meticulously orchestrated the Crucifixion himself. For this reason, I think you should also agree in Meticulous Providence...
do you think God used General Providence to bring the Crucifixion of Christ to fruition?
I do;
Would you say that God Providentially determined the Selling of Joseph into Slavery? I would. Would you say that the Offering of the Children was Providentially governed by the Providence of God? I suspect you will agree...
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