What is wrong with Calvinism ?

QvQ said:

What puzzles me is that I thought a man had to have Faith First to be born again And First, to have Faith a man must be born again.
On the list being discussed here, a person is "convicted repents baptized." Faith has been completely removed from that list.

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The bible says the faith come by hearing and hearing the word of God.

Receivedgrace said:

If man has no choice then he is nothing more than an automaton. No glory for God in that creation. No God made man in His own image and gave free will to make choices to glorify God Who created him.
God knows everything but man does not. Predestination is not predetermination.
4500 posts in this thread are like the untold thousands of posts in many other threads where no opinions are ever changed. God's word is inerrant and man's word is not. When there are contradictions it is in the understand of man's interpretation not God's word.

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You sound as if I had just told you that man has not choice. I said the opposite.

God does not predestine by 'knowing everything'. Of course he knows, but it is not as a result of him having comprehension of activity beyond his causation, but rather, because he causes it.

God is first cause, or he is not God. If there is activity to which he must respond, from outside of his causation, he is not first cause, and therefore not God.

Why are you telling me God's Word is inerrant and there are no contradictions? Did I say differently? Did I imply differently? If I had to compare, I would conclude that it is those who believe in uncaused free will that produce the contradictions into Scripture.

Clare73 said:

The apostles received the Holy Spirit (rebirth) in John 20:22, then they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost for special enabling of starting the church.

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It is not possible that what is recorded in John 20:22 is the account of the disciples (not Apostles in this context) "receiving" the Comforter:


John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


It was necessary for Christ to first return to Heaven from whence He came before the Comforter was sent. This is reiterated here:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is when men and women receive the Holy Spirit:


Acts 11:13-18
King James Version

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


The "words" whereby Cornelius and his house were saved was the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as recorded in Acts 10. Cornelius was saved, not merely empowered when he was Baptized with the Holy Ghost. He received repentance unto life. He received eternal life. Because he believed the Gospel, and believed in Jesus Christ.

Not a single Old Testament Saint was born again, because the New Birth is the immersion of a believer into Christ, and it is simply not possible that men were immersed into God prior to Christ first coming, then dying, and then returning to Heaven that He might send the Comforter.

It is the Comforter that enlightens the natural mind to the spiritual things of God, and in order for natural men and women to be born again, the Comforter must enlighten their minds to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

No Old Testament Saint was enlightened of the Gospel of Jesus Christ because—it remained a Mystery until the Comforter was sent.

John 20:22 is an instruction of Christ to His disciples to receive the Holy Spirit when He is sent, rather than an account of their receiving Him at that time.

Clare73 said:

The Holy Spirit does not act savingly for anyone outside the rebirth by the Holy Spirit, for you must have the Holy Spirit to accept anything from him, you do not accept anything from the Holy Spirit if you are without him, and you have him only by the rebirth (1 Corinthians 2:14).

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On the contrary, it is through His convicting ministry that men and women are born again.

We have an entire Old Testament filled with men and women of faith that received from the Holy Spirit, Who has always ministered in and through men and women. We call this the filling of the Holy Spirit and it does not require regeneration.

Today, Christians can be born again and eternally indwelt by God but this does not mean they are filled with the Spirit. Eternal Redemption did not begin until Pentecost (for those alive: it is very likely Old Testament Saints were eternally redeemed at the time of the Cross). This is the day the Comforter is sent in His convicting ministry and the day when He began to reveal the Mystery of the Gospel.

QvQ said:

What puzzles me is that I thought a man had to have Faith First to be born again And First, to have Faith a man must be born again.

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You are correct, faith is necessary in regeneration. However, we must always remember that we are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace.

Scripture shows a consistent pattern of God revealing His will to men and judging them based on their response to that revelation. It is no different today, for God is consistent in His dealings with man. What is different is that today general faith is not a means of relationship with God in an eternal context, because God has revealed His will as specific to faith in Christ:


Hebrews 6
King James Version

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.


Grace is God "permitting" men to "go on unto perfection." Perfection speaks of "completion," rather than our modern usage of something that is without flaw. The contrast is between the revelation Jews received prior to the establishment of the New Covenant through Christ and the revelation now being revealed to men, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The "Gospel" was incomplete in regards to man's understanding prior to the Comforter's coming. They anticipated the Messiah but did not understand that He would die in their stead and that through this death remission of sins would be everlasting (as contrasted with the temporary remission provided by vicarious animal sacrifice).

This revelation is given to men by the Comforter and is the basis for the faith in Christ that leads to Regeneration. Only faith in Christ leads to regeneration. Regeneration was made possible only through the death of Jesus Christ in our stead, and that is one of the truths we embrace in faith in Christ.

Eternal Redemption must be distinguished from the "salvation" we see in the Old Testament in this sense: the Old Testament Saints were justified in a temporal sense due to their response to the revelation given them by God. Because of this, they were "saved" in an eternal perspective (God's) but still in need of Eternal Redemption. It is not that different from the fact that we (today) have been eternally redeemed and placed into Christ and He in us but we still await glorification.

The Old Testament Saints were "saved" but not eternally redeemed, This would not happen for them until Christ died in their stead:


Hebrews 9:11-12
King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Regeneration in the Old Testament is one of the flaws I see in Calvinism. This doesn't mean they are wrong about everything, but this particular teaching is one area I see as contrary to Scripture. It lessens the magnitude of what Christ accomplished, in my view.

God bless.

Mark Quayle said:

You sound as if I had just told you that man has not choice. I said the opposite.

God does not predestine by 'knowing everything'. Of course he knows, but
it is not as a result of him having comprehension of activity beyond his causation, but rather, because he causes it.

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Which is the meaning of divine foreknowledge as it is used in Scripture; i.e., it is his foreknowledge of what he has decreed/ordained.

God is first cause, or he is not God. If there is activity to which he must respond, from outside of his causation, he is not first cause, and therefore not God.

Why are you telling me God's Word is inerrant and there are no contradictions? Did I say differently? Did I imply differently? If I had to compare, I would conclude that it is those who believe in uncaused free will that produce the contradictions into Scripture.

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zoidar said:

Faith is more active, something that changes you life, believing is passive, believing a fact which doesn't have much to do with a changed life. That's my thinking about that.

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The activation of Faith by the Holy Spirit is regeneration.

Saul believed, was convinced of the fact of Jesus and Christians, as he was persecuting them. Saul received absolute Faith in Jesus as Lord on the road to Damascus. It changed his life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith.

Do you believe the Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria?

P1LGR1M said:

It is not possible that what is recorded in John 20:22 is the account of the disciples
(not Apostles in this context) "receiving" the Comforter:
John 16:7-9 King James Version
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

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You are setting Scripture against itself.
Paraklesis is a legal term, as in the counsel for the defense (1 John 2:1), helping someone in trouble with the law, and is better translated "counselor."

The Holy Spirit has various functions in Scripture, some of them designated as a name of him; e.g., spirit of adoption, judgment, grace, knowledge, truth, life, etc. The names describe the function being referred to. The Spirit of life (God's breath, regeneration) was given to the apostles in John 20:22, while the Spirit of Counsel (advocate) was given at another time.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

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It was necessary for Christ to first return to Heaven from whence He came before the Comforter was sent. This is reiterated here:
Acts 1:4-5
King James Version
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is when men and women receive the Holy Spirit:
Acts 11:13-18
King James Version
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
The "words" whereby Cornelius and his house were saved was the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as recorded in Acts 10. Cornelius was saved, not merely empowered when he was Baptized with the Holy Ghost. He received repentance unto life. He received eternal life. Because he believed the Gospel, and believed in Jesus Christ.

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Not a single Old Testament Saint was born again, because the New Birth is the immersion of a believer into Christ, and it is simply not possible that men were immersed into God prior to Christ first coming, then dying, and then returning to Heaven that He might send the Comforter.

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The OT saints were saved by belief in the Promise (seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 3:15, Genesis 15:6), as the NT saints are saved by belief in Jesus Christ (the Promised Seed, Galatians 3:16).

QvQ said:

The activation of Faith by the Holy Spirit is regeneration.

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Faith is not regeneration. Faith is a response to the revelation God provides to an individual. What kind of faith one has is dependent on the revelation provided to them.

Note that men and women of faith under the Law are contrasted to men and women who place faith in Christ:

Galatians 3:21-27
King James Version

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Paul's point is not that there was no faith prior to specific faith in Christ (through the revelation of the Gospel by the Comforter), but that the faith of then had a different focus.

One cannot be baptized into Christ apart from faith in Christ, and faith in Christ was something yet future in the Old Testament. While men were under the (Covenant of) Law specific faith in Christ was something which should afterwards be revealed (v.23), meaning, after the Covenant of Law.

God bless.

Jesus is YHWH said:

foreknowledge precedes decree.

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Divine foreknowledge is about God's work, not man's.
Divine foreknowledge of the future is based on the divine decrees before the foundations of the world.

P1LGR1M said:

Faith is not regeneration. Faith is a response to the revelation God provides to an individual. What kind of faith one has is dependent on the revelation provided to them.

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zoidar said:

Faith is more active, something that changes you life, believing is passive, believing a fact which doesn't have much to do with a changed life. That's my thinking about that.

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Zoidar stated that belief is passive. Faith is active.
That would mean grace (the Holy Spirit) changes passive belief into active Faith. That change is regeneration as a person receives the Holy Spirit at that time.

Clare73 said:

You are setting Scripture against itself.

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On the contrary, the Scripture presented speaks for itself.

Are you going to say that Jesus Christ was somehow confused when He said—

P1LGR1M said:

John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

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—?

Please address the Scripture presented.

Clare73 said:

Paraklesis is a legal term, as in the counsel for the defense (1 John 2:1), helping someone in trouble with the law, and is better translated "counselor."

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Context determines the "best interpretation." And I do not see His (the Comforter) ministry towards unbelievers as simply a matter of "counseling," but a matter of conviction:

John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


See the link for the word translated "will reprove."

The Comforter's ministry is first and foremost stated by Christ as bringing conviction upon those who do not believe in Christ (v.9).

Clare73 said:

The Holy Spirit has various functions in Scripture, some of them designated as a name of him; e.g., spirit of adoption, judgment, grace, knowledge, truth, life, etc. The names describe the function being referred to. The Spirit of life (regeneration) was given to the apostles in John 20:22, while the Spirit of Counsel (advocate) was given at another time.

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You have yet to address the point made which shows it isn't possible the disciples received the Spirit at this time.

And trying to divide the Spirit's ministry as Comforter isn't something you'll be able to support from Scripture.

Have you given thought to why the Lord's prophecy of the coming of the Spirit of Grace is said to be the coming of "another Comforter?"

John 14:15-16
King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation G3874 of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.


Because He would be like Christ. So we look at Christ's ministry and compare that to the ministry of the Comforter and we see the similarities.

Then, when we read Christ's teaching describing the coming of the Comforter we find the differences between His (Christ) ministry and the one performed by the Holy Spirit. In the above verse we see that the Spirit would be with the disciples forever. This is contrasted to Christ's departure from then (John 14:1).

Secondly, we see that the Spirit of God would be in them (Eternal Indwelling/Union), rather than with them (the filling).

We see also that when He, the Spirit of Grace comes, the disciples would be indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:


John 14:17-23
King James Version

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


But it all begins with the revelation of the Gospel Mystery to the hearts of men and women. That is how the Comforter brings conviction to the hearts of men and women, and that is what generates faith.

Faith follows the revelation of God's truth to men and women by God. Doesn't matter if that revelation is the testimony of Creation, the internal witness of God, or direct revelation as we see with the prophets, only God can reveal truth to men and do so within the sphere of their hearts.

Clare73 said:

The OT saints were saved by belief in the Promise (seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 3:15, Genesis 15:6), as the NT saints are saved by belief in Jesus Christ (the Promised Seed, Galatians 3:16).

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If that were the case then we would have to say that Jews who reject Jesus Christ are born again by their continued faith that one day God will send Messiah.

No, only those who receive the Gospel will receive the Spirit of God in Eternal Union. The Old Testament Saints did not. They were justified in a temporal context and thus understood to be "saved," but they were not baptized into Christ and they died still awaiting Eternal Redemption.

As I said before, this is similar to the fact that we have been born again through faith in Christ but have not received our glorified bodies yet. We are saved but there are still a few things about our Eternal Redemption that we await. Glorification and the Eternal State is the ultimate state of our salvation.

God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

On the contrary, the Scripture presented speaks for itself.

Are you going to say that Jesus Christ was somehow confused when He said—
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
—?
Please address the Scripture presented.

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You aren't paying attention.

QvQ said:

Zoidar stated that belief is passive. Faith is active.
That would mean grace (the Holy Spirit) changes passive belief into active Faith. That change is regeneration as a person receives the Holy Spirit at that time.

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I was addressing this statement:

QvQ said:

The activation of Faith by the Holy Spirit is regeneration.

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It suggests that the Comforter "turns on faith" so a person can be regenerated. I have stated why I disagree with that.

Faith is a response to believing revelation provided by God. I see the order of salvation like this: God reveals truth to men and women and they respond. It begins with either believing or disbelieving. This leads to faith. Faith that something is either true or not, so the atheist cannot be said to be without belief or faith (for example).

The key, though, is to understand revelation in its proper context. Ascribing "faith in Christ" in an eternal salvific context to those who did not receive the understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel is never going to be shown in Scripture. It is in fact made clear that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to men in the Old Testament Eras and Ages. One example of this would be—


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


"The riches of the glory of this mystery is" the indwelling of Christ.

Paul ends the Epistle to the Romans speaking of the mystery:


Romans 16:25-27
King James Version

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


Specific faith in Christ is necessary for Regeneration, and faith in Christ only arises through the ministry of the Comforter Who brings conviction upon those who do not believe in Christ (John 16:7-9).

A discussion of passive and active belief and faith fall better into a context of our daily conversation, rather than a salvific context. We are not saved by our faith, we are saved by the grace of God and as a result of His divine intervention into our lives. As natural men and women we have no ability to comprehend the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are reliant on the ministry of the Comforter to enlighten our dark hearts.


God bless.

Clare73 said:

You aren't paying attention.

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I'm sorry—what was that?

Clare73 said:

The OT saints were saved by belief in the Promise (seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 3:15, Genesis 15:6),

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I agree, that the Old Testament Saints were saved, however, the point made is that they were not born again and Eternally Redeemed. That is a promise of God in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:23-27, for example) that is not realized until He establishes the New Covenant.

But don't take my word for it:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


As mentioned earlier, neither had the disciples of Christ received the promise prior to Christ returning to Heaven:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The promise in view here is defined by Christ Himself as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. We need only look to Christ's teachings to see what He is speaking about.

That this is the moment of receiving Eternal Life through union with God is supported by the contrast John the Baptist uses when this quote is given:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


One of the most overlooked points concerning Regeneration is the simple fact that Jesus Christ is The Baptizer.

So how do we get around the fact that on the day He returns to Heaven the disciples are not yet baptized with the Holy Ghost? It is yet not many days hence. The popularity of the position that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is empowerment (and that is what most Systems teach ultimately) doesn't change what Scripture teaches.

Here (Matthew 3:11-12) we see that He will baptize some with the holy Ghost (Eternal Salvation) and others with fire (Eternal Judgment).

As shown earlier in Acts 11:13-18, Cornelius (and by extension the disciples of Christ) received Eternal Salvation when he was baptized with the Holy Ghost.

It states specifically he was saved.

It states specifically that he received repentance unto life.

It is for you to show how exactly your charge of "setting Scripture against itself" is a valid charge.

Then we can look at how it is I am not paying attention.




God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

God reveals truth to men and women and they respond. It begins with either believing or disbelieving. This leads to faith.

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1) Man hears the Word.
2) Man either believes or disbelieves. That is passive.
3) Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith That is Active
The only way to activate Faith is by Grace (the Holy Spirit)
A person may passively believe or not. A person cannot by his own will or actions activate Faith. It is by Grace, not works.

Salvation is : sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, solus Christus, soli Deo Gloria

QvQ said:

1) Man hears the Word.

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Agreed: faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

QvQ said:

2) Man either believes or disbelieves. That is passive.

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I have to disagree. The only way someone can be passive in regards to either believing or faith is to be ignorant of a subject.

The Christian actively believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died for him/her.

An atheist actively disbelieves: If they cease to disbelieve they become a believer, or they have forgotten what it is they disbelieve, lol.

QvQ said:

3) Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith That is Active
The only way to activate Faith is by Grace (the Holy Spirit)

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Again, I agree, but the "activity" in the salvific context is that of God. He is the One that does the saving. The faith of the one saved is a result of the activity of God.

Concerning the second statement, I still agree, because it is the grace of God that enlightens the mind of the one who comes to belief (and subsequently have faith in what is believed). It is the same grace that established the Covenant of Law with Israel and said "If you obey you will live."

QvQ said:

person may passively believe or not.

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Have to disagree again: I do not consider "passive belief" to be belief at all. One does not "passively" believe in Christ, either at salvation or in their walk. That is nominal belief that is no better than unbelief.

When Israel "passively believed" what God had said—they died.

QvQ said:

A person cannot by his own will or actions activate Faith.

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Again, I agree: this is a result of God enlightening the natural mind.

If I came up behind you and dumped a five-gallon bucket of ice water on you there would be a reaction that you did not "activate," it would be a response to an outside stimulus.

When it comes to saving grace it is God Who brings about this reaction/response in us by His convicting ministry in our hearts. One can, with a natural mind, read Scripture or hear the Gospel and have an understanding of it at a certain level. However, believing it is only going to happen when God Himself makes it real to our hearts.

And to complicate it further, believing is not the point at which salvation takes place for all people, because Scripture makes it clear that there are those who believe yet do not believe unto the saving of the soul (person):


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


These spoken of here are those who heard the Gospel and we are told that "knew it." And they turned from it. So we see belief but no faith.


James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


Demons believe but have no faith.

QvQ said:

It is by Grace, not works.

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Agreed.

QvQ said:

Salvation is : sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, solus Christus, soli Deo Gloria

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Salvation is by grace through faith. Eternal Redemption is by grace through faith in Christ specifically. Apart from God enlightening the dead heart of a man or woman Scripture will not save. Man has no ability to understand the spiritual things of God, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ heads that list.

Adam and Eve were not born again by the promise of the Savior.

Abraham was not born again because he believed God would give him a son through whom all families of the earth would be blessed.

The disciples were not born again because they followed Christ Who taught under the Law.

Only the revelation of the Gospel directly by God to the hearts of men and women has the ability to bring saving belief into the life of an individual. It is not until men and women believe that they can exercise faith in that which they have believed.

Both belief and faith are active. Even for the atheist who claims to have once been a Christian there is still going to be an active belief and faith. Lack of active belief and faith shows either ignorance (of the subject), amnesia, or a change of belief and faith.

God bless.

QvQ said:

Do you believe the Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria?

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I have never dived down into to the Solas to know their exact meaning. To answer you I would have to find out exactly how they apply to Scripture. So I'm not fully sure. Neither do I think it's necessary to know.

P1LGR1M said:

I have to disagree. The only way someone can be passive in regards to either believing or faith is to be ignorant of a subject.

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1)The Lukewarm

P1LGR1M said:

One can, with a natural mind, read Scripture or hear the Gospel and have an understanding of it at a certain level.

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2) Hear the Word and understand it at a certain level

P1LGR1M said:

Have to disagree again: I do not consider "passive belief" to be belief at all. One does not "passively" believe in Christ, either at salvation or in their walk. That is nominal belief that is no better than unbelief.

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3)It is still belief, nominal or otherwise. Nominal belief becomes active Faith by the Grace of God

P1LGR1M said:

And to complicate it further, believing is not the point at which salvation takes place for all people, because Scripture makes it clear that there are those who believe yet do not believe unto the saving of the soul (person):

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4)These people believe but are not saved..Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith.

So we have 4 groups who hear the Word and Believe yet have not Faith
1) Lukewarm
2) Nominal
3) Understanding of natural mind
4) Believe but do not have Faith
Salvation is "for by grace you have been saved through faith." Salvation is Grace (Holy Spirit) activating belief into Faith. I would say that "ignition" is regeneration or at least the start.

zoidar said:

To answer you I would have to find out exactly how they apply to Scripture. So I'm not fully sure. Neither do I think it's necessary to know.

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In English, the five Solas state that Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone.

I believe it is a doctrine common to almost all Protestant denominations but I, being a denomination of one, believe it as self evident truth. So I am not certain who else believes it.