What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Ditto for me on Calvinism but predestination is part of Calvinism and the subject of this thread, so, much wasted information and ignorant opinion about me being confused.
Clare dose not think Jacob and Esau had a choice concerning salvation. From what I understand you do. I think the scripture about them was about the purpose God had for them, not about salvation.

Excuse me but predestination is a doctrine of the gospel. Calvinism isn't its author. You need to figure that one out before you tell us you aren't confused about it.

 

[RickReads]

Is that your best argument, ad hominem?

And yet there are others who say exactly the opposite. . .go figure.

Mehinks you don't understand the context of those matters.

As I've meditated on this issue I'm leaning toward agreeing that predestination is about events, the election itself being an event in this way of understanding it. I`m thinking that is probably Biblical.

 

[Clare73]

I may possibly go along with all that except for your assertion about Jacob and Esau.
There were things about Jacob that God liked and there were things about Esau that God didn't like.

God's personal feelings about both impacted His decisions.
Even though neither had done anything God foreknew them both.

Not really, God liked Jacobs's greed for His promise. He didn't like Esau's focus on this world displayed when he sold out for a bowl of food.

But are not these the very things being refuted in Romans 9:11-12, in that
God's choice was not based on their deeds,
it was based only on God's purpose,
that it might stand (be accomplished); i.e., Messiah would descend from Jacob, not Esau;
his people would consist of 12 tribes and be called Israel, not Edom, etc.?

 

[Clare73]

As I've meditated on this issue I'm leaning toward agreeing that predestination is about events, the election itself being an event in this way of understanding it. I`m thinking that is probably Biblical.

Remarkable. . .

"Election" an event stated in Romans 8:33?

 

[RickReads]

Remarkable. . .

An event stated in Romans 8:33?

Snarky and wrong at the same time, kinda funny.

Romans 8:33 affirms that God justifies the elect. It does nothing to prove God predestines events.

 

[RickReads]

But are not these the very things being refuted in Romans 9:11-12, in that
God's choice was not based on their deeds,
it was based only on God's purpose,
that it might stand (be accomplished); i.e., Messiah would descend from Jacob, not Esau;
his people would consist of 12 tribes and be called Israel, not Edom, etc.?

Not really, God liked Jacobs's greed for His promise. He didn't like Esau's focus on this world displayed when he sold out for a bowl of food.

 

[Clare73]

What you, Rick and Clare are failing to understand when I say collective is when the scripture uses the terms us,we, them, etc. it is referring to all believers, a group who by Gods predestined choice are fulfilling His purpose. this is, in my mind, a very different thing than predestined individual salvation which does not agree with a lot of other scripture. "Whosoever believes shall have everlasting life" sure sounds like we have a choice.

We most certainly do have a choice. . .but not in the sense of "free will" as philosophy presents, Pelagius required, and most understand it--autonomy as necessary in order to be (justly) responsible for sin.

The NT presents unregenerate man (not born again, no Holy Spirit--state in which we are born) as hostile to God, not submitting to God's law, not even capable of doing so, unable to please God. (Romans 8:7), by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) and condemned by Adam's sin (Romans 5:18).
That's the Biblical view of man, which is not the human view of man.

"Free will" is the power to choose/do voluntarily, without external force or constraint.
However, the human will does not operate in a vacuum.
It is governed by one's disposition; i.e., what one likes, prefers; i.e., self.

God works in the disposition of the elect, giving them to prefer God's will, or they would never freely choose it.
God does not violate the free will of the elect, God uses the free will of the elect to effectually draw (dragnet) them to himself.

Re 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with me.
Does not sound like our choice was made before He arrived at our door.

Nor was it. . .but his election was made and procurred before he arrived at our door.

 

[Clare73]

Ditto for me on Calvinism but predestination is part of Calvinism and the subject of this thread, so, much wasted information and ignorant opinion about me being confused.
Clare dose not think Jacob and Esau had a choice concerning salvation. From what I understand you do. I think the scripture about them was about the purpose God had for them, not about salvation.

That is correct, Romans 9:11-12 are about election of Jacob, not about salvation of Jacob.

 

[Clare73]

Remarkable. . .

"Election" an event stated in Romans 8:33?

Snarky and wrong at the same time, kinda funny.

Snarky ????????
Really?

Like "gamey," which occurs too often in these parts?

You've completely lost me.

Romans 8:33 affirms that God justifies the elect. It does nothing to prove God predestines events.

 

[misput]

Is that your best argument, ad hominem?

And yet there are others who say exactly the opposite. . .go figure.

Mehinks you don't understand the context of those matters.

Back at you. Are you a sister to Pete and repeat? What a waste of space.

 

[misput]

That is correct, Romans 9:11-12 are about election of Jacob, not about salvation of Jacob.

Why do you leave out Esau?

 

[RickReads]

Snarky ????????
Really?

Like "gamey," which occurs too often in these parts?

You've completely lost me.

Well alrighty then,

How about this, let's have a monster of a debate over which came first, the chicken or the egg.

What difference does it make if your works are because of being chosen or if they are predestined events you are chosen to do?

 

[Clare73]

Well alrighty then,

How about this, let's have a monster of a debate over which came first, the chicken or the egg.

What difference does it make if your works are because of being chosen or if they are predestined events you are chosen to do?

I give up. . .what's the difference?

And when/where did this go south?

 

[Clare73]

Back at you. Are you a sister to Pete and repeat? What a waste of space.

Why do you leave out Esau?

Don't wanna' insult mah deceased bubba, Pete. . .by bein' that thar sister to 'im 'n all. . .so
won't be uh answerin' yer question.

 

[RickReads]

I give up. . .what's the difference?

And when/where did this go south?

I was hoping you would tell me. You caused me to alter my position on predestination slightly. I can't figure out what more you would want.

 

[RickReads]

Don't wanna' insult mah deceased bubba, Pete. . .by bein' that sister to 'im 'n all. . .so
won't be uh answerin' yer question.

Esau became a great nation. He's ok for a whacko.

 

[Clare73]

I was hoping you would tell me. You caused me to alter my position on predestination slightly. I can't figure out what more you would want.

You thought the following was "wanting more"?

Remarkable. . .

"Election" an event stated in Romans 8:33?

Well, I'm thinkin' your alteration was remarkable. . .and was agreeing with you on election being an event.

Go figure. . .

 

[RickReads]

You thought the following was "wanting more"?

I thought your alteration was remarkable. . .and was agreeing with you on election being an event.

Go figure. . .

I thought you meant remarkable in a snarky kind of way.

 

[misput]

Excuse me but predestination is a doctrine of the gospel. Calvinism isn't its author. You need to figure that one out before you tell us you aren't confused about it.

Talk about snarky and gamey, wow! You really are funny and entertaining.

 

[Clare73]

I thought you meant remarkable in a snarky kind of way.

Kinda' sad when plain English is now suspect. . .

And who rubbed misput with a hot brick?
Too much holiday?

It's like a darn snakepit!