What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Kinda' sad when plain English is now suspect. . .

And who rubbed misput with a hot brick?

It's like a darn snakepit!

Sorry, this place tends to make me keep my dukes up.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry, this place tends to make me keep my dukes up.

Sure wished I'da knowed. . .apology accepted.

Can we get back to being civil now?

 

[RickReads]

Sure wished I'da knowed. . .apology accepted.

Can we get back to being civil now?

Not Likely. LOL! The thing to remember is anytime you're talking to somebody with a Calvinist background you're talking to someone who has been taught predestination is about people.

Its indoctrination which is always hard to get past.

 

[RickReads]

Talk about snarky and gamey, wow! You really are funny and entertaining.

If you give me a chance I'll try.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Impartiality of justice is just that. . .of justice.
And God is impartial in justice. . .he gives everyone his due, what he has earned.
To those whose sin debt is unpaid, he gives what they've earned--damnation.
To those whose sin debt is paid, he gives what they're due--salvation from damnation.

Mercy is impartial in that there is no mercy for anyone without justice being satisfied.
However, nowhere is mercy required to be impartial in its selection of its objects of mercy.

That is the right of totally sovereign and free choice, when all justice has been satisfied.

But He doesn’t give everyone what is due and according to Calvinism there’s nothing they can do to receive His mercy which makes His judgement partial to some but not others.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Not Likely. LOL! The thing to remember is anytime you're talking to somebody with a Calvinist background you're talking to someone who has been taught predestination is about people.

Its indoctrination which is always hard to get past.

Trust me I know it’s true since I was one for over 40 years and I can attest what you say is true and I’ve seen it with every Calvinist I’ve debated with over the years .

 

[RickReads]

Trust me I know it’s true since I was one for over 40 years and I can attest what you say is true and I’ve seen it with every Calvinist I’ve debated with over the years .

It's all the same with any kind of belief system. Any objections to it are met with self-talk that will usually overcome any merit there may be in the discrepancies.

The issue I`ve just had over predestination is a classic example of it. Romans 8:29 & 30 is where I live.
It's my personal Jesus. God giving me the moon on a platter of gold. It`s everything.

It took Clare agreeing with those verses before I could really take an objective look at her assertion.

 

[RickReads]

But He doesn’t give everyone what is due and according to Calvinism there’s nothing they can do to receive His mercy which makes His judgement partial to some but not others.

If I understand her correctly I don't believe Clare is a Calvinist.

 

[Clare73]

Not Likely. LOL! The thing to remember is anytime you're talking to somebody with a Calvinist background you're talking to someone who has been taught predestination is about people.

Its indoctrination which is always hard to get past.

I haven't studied Calvin on predestination, but are you sure you have that right?

For that is what Romans 8:29-30 states--God predestined people to be conformed to the likeness of his Son.

Would you help me understand what your issue is.

This whole predestination-of-people thing has never been on my radar.

 

[RickReads]

I haven't studied Calvin on predestination, but are you sure you have that right?

For that is what Romans 8:29-30 states--God predestined people to be conformed to the likeness of his Son.

Would you help me understand what your issue is.

This whole predestination-of-people thing has never been on my radar.

Yes, I'm sure. It's the chicken or the egg thing I was talking about.

Calvinists are just very focused on the predestination of people. Events are not on the radar. Kinda the opposite of how you are looking at it.

God preordaining works is seen as part of the predestination of people package just as you see the election as being part of the predestination of events package.

I hope that makes sense to you.

It's not so much that I conceded to your position, I've just stopped seeing it as being wrong and I think its a more effective understanding of predestination.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yes, I'm sure. It's the chicken or the egg thing I was talking about.

Calvinists are just very focused on the predestination of people. Events are not on the radar. Kinda the opposite of how you are looking at it.

God preordaining works is seen as part of the predestination of people package just as you see the election as being part of the predestination of events package.

I hope that makes sense to you.

It's not so much that I conceded to your position, I've just stopped seeing it as being wrong and I think its a more effective understanding of predestination.

It sounds like Ephesians 2:10 is your point correct ?

 

[RickReads]

It sounds like Ephesians 2:10 is your point correct ?

Yes. Perfect answer.

 

[Clare73]

But He doesn’t give everyone what is due and according to Calvinism there’s nothing they can do to receive His mercy which makes His judgement partial to some but not others.

According to your misunderstanding of "Calvinism". . .

God most certainly does give everyone his just due, what he is justly owed, what he has justly earned.
And God most certainly does not owe mercy to anyone.

All sin is subject to penalty, which justice requires must be paid--eternal death.
That penalty is paid for all those who believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ to pay their penalty for them.
Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ must may pay their just penalty for themselves--eternal death.
That is impartial justice--required and owed by a just God to all men.

Mercy, however, is not owed to anyone, it is not a matter of justice, it is free and God is sovereignly free to dispense it as he pleases, for mercy is not required of him by justice.
Nor does free (gift, not owed) mercy require the impartiality of owed (not free) justice, which justice is due to all men.
That God does not give mercy to all is not injustice, for he owes mercy to no one.
Therefore, there is nothing man can do that merits God's mercy because mercy is free, it is not earned and, therefore, not deserved.

That God dispenses mercy to some and not all is not injustice, for free mercy is not owed to anyone
and, therefore, does not require impartiality.

 

[enoob57]

According to your misunderstanding of "Calvinism". . .

God most certainly does give everyone his just due, what he is justly owed, what he has justly earned.
And God most certainly does not owe mercy to anyone.

All sin is subject to penalty, which justice requires must be paid--eternal death.
That penalty is paid for all those who believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ to pay their penalty for them.
Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ must may pay their just penalty for themselves--eternal death.
That is impartial justice--required and owed by a just God to all men.

Mercy, however, is not owed to anyone, it is not a matter of justice, it is free and God is sovereignly free to dispense it as he pleases, for mercy is not required of him by justice.
Nor does free (gift, not owed) mercy require the impartiality of owed (not free) justice, which justice is due to all men.
That God does not give mercy to all is not injustice, for he owes mercy to no one.
Therefore, there is nothing man can do that merits God's mercy because mercy is free, it is not earned and, therefore, not deserved.

That God dispenses mercy to some and not all is not injustice, for free mercy is not owed to anyone
and, therefore, does not require impartiality.

Tell that to the one not born yet but will go to hell no matter what... doomed from the womb theology is what it is rightly called...
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Clare73]

If I understand her correctly I don't believe Clare is a Calvinist.

Quite honestly, I haven't studied "Calvinism," I've studied Paul.

I argue Paul, not "Calvinism."

But I suspect some of the stuff out here attributed to "Calvinism" is misunderstanding of Calvin.

 

[RickReads]

Tell that to the one not born yet but will go to hell no matter what...

Is that sarcasm or do you really believe that?

 

[Clare73]

Tell that to the one not born yet but will go to hell no matter what...

All men go to hell no matter what (Romans 5:18), except for the mercy of God to some.

 

[enoob57]

Calvinism is a non-Biblical doctrine that is foisted upon the Scriptures...

 

[RickReads]

Quite honestly, I haven't studied "Calvinism," I've studied Paul.

I argue Paul, not "Calvinism."

But I suspect some of the stuff out here attributed to "Calvinism" is misunderstanding of Calvin.

Why are you evasive about your denominational affiliation?

I enjoy telling people that I'm a Baptist Berean Charismatic Apostolic Pentecostal Church of God Mountain Assembly Pauline Quaker Messianiac.

In case you didn't know a Messianiac is a Baptecostal Holy Roller who likes Jewish things and enjoys calling Jesus by His Hebrew transliterated name.

And FYI Calvin isn't misunderstood, he was wrong.

 

[enoob57]

All men go to hell no matter what (Romans 5:18), except for the mercy of God to some.

You may believe what ever you like about God but we all will answer to the Scriptures

John 12:48 (KJV)
[48] He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

and the scripture is very clear about God's intent to fallen man

Ezekiel 18:32 (KJV)
[32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

and if God claims He has no pleasure in a thing then God did not do it or have responsibility of it

Isaiah 46:9 (KJV)
[9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
[11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.