What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Romans 5:18 disagrees. . .we are guilty of condemnation at birth.

We are all condemned by Adam's guilt imputed to us (Romans 5:12-18), which is why all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law with the death penalty in force at the time and, therefore, no sin to cause death (Romans 6:23).

Precisely. . .

We do not inherit guilt by birth, it is imputed/accounted/reckoned to us by God.

No one is exempt from condemnation (Romans 5:18).

Yes, you keep repeating that. We don't inherit guilt, God just puts it on us when we are born courtesy of Adams's mistake.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Their teaching does not slander God saying that He creates some that He "dooms from the womb".
We agree up to this point and it shows that free will is important.
I did not address this. We agree that man is depraved, in rebellion, and does not seek God. But I don't find where man cannot be reached by the Holy Spirit as is. If that is an important truth, there would be scripture to explicitly state that.

Understand, then, that rebellion is his way, and humanity —i.e. 'creaturehood'— defines his level of ignorance and integrity, so that only by the Spirit of God is there any value to his repentance, or even the reality (or 'kind') of conviction. Otherwise, you have "whereof to boast."

 

[Mark Quayle]

When Paul talks about boasting, he means we can't earn salvation through deeds. Repentance is not a deed. Repentance comes from realizing one is lost, and in a need of forgiveness. So one turns to God for forgiveness and God bestows us forgiveness not from some good deed we have done, but through mercy, and that is what the Bible means by grace.

Repentance IS a deed.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, you keep repeating that.

Because it keeps being misstated.

We don't inherit guilt, God just puts it on us when we are born courtesy of Adams's mistake.

Precisely. . .guilt is imputed, not inherited.

 

[Greg Cheney]

I could say that "you seem to think" that God is not omnipotent, but it would not further this conversation much. God is dead serious when he commands repentance, but the rebelling, of their own free will, always reject him, according to their will, unless he changes their will. I don't know how much more obvious it can be.

Even the Arminian notion of prevenient grace, for the sake of 'God honoring our self-determination' still involves the fact of God deciding to whom to give this prevenient grace! There is no logical way around the fact that God first decides, except by self-contradiction, or ignoring Scripture, or denying Scripture.



Grace by definition is unmerited. I do not say that all grace is unconditional. Even what Calvinists call Unconditional Grace could be said to be conditioned on God's decision, (but that is human-talk, in the way it ignores the Simplicity of God).

The Bible does not teach that God decides for us - he grieves when we do not submit to him. Imagine a God grieving for those he chose to damn. Calvinist "grace" is not the grace of the Bible.

 

[zoidar]

Repentance IS a deed.

Ok, show then from scripture that repentance is a deed "ergon". I'll be surprised if you are able to do that.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The Bible does not teach that God decides for us - he grieves when we do not submit to him. Imagine a God grieving for those he chose to damn. Calvinist "grace" is not the grace of the Bible.

Correct and God can be resister too. So much for the “ I “ in tulip .

 

[Clare73]

Ro 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
For this verse to correlate the way some claim, all mankind would have to receive imputed righteousness from God as well as supposedly all mankind receives imputed condemnation,

Understood in the light and context of the whole NT,
all those born of Adam (in Adam) do receive imputed guilt, and
all those born of Christ (in Christ) do receive imputed righteousness.

having no choice in either process. What some are missing is there is a process involving each individual in each case.
Hint:
Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

The whole context being. . ."because all sinned" is the necessary (and unexplained) conclusion of "all died," unexplained conclusion because there was no law with the death penalty in force at the time to cause their deaths.

PS: Please do not hack my post, example; highlight all but two words of a sentence and reply to that when the two words are the main point of the sentence. Of course you can dismiss this request but I can also dismiss your post, kemosabe : )

I understand, but what you consider the main point of the sentence is not necessarily the basis nor the main point of my response.
My highlights indicate precisely to what I am responding, which is often the wheel on which the argument turns, everything else depending on it, so that when there is no wheel, there is really no argument.

So the response to me becomes to show the Biblical error of my argument, thereby showing that your argument remains valid.

 

[Clare73]

You and Clare have forced me to get technical. Normally I`d let it go. So try and get this because I don't want to add another 500 pages of a sideways circular debate. Regeneration in reference to conversion is found just once in the Bible and refers to the washing away of sin. The new birth is a reference to the complete process.

The complete process would be salvation:

rebirth-->faith-->salvation (remission of sin)-->justification (declared, imputed righteousness-->sonship.

It's a one-package deal.

Your idea of regeneration is a Calvinist construct. Unbiblical

Contraire. . .

Rebirth and regeneration by definition are the same thing in the NT.
What applies to one applies to the other.
The "Calvinist construct" is likewise the Biblical construct.

 

[RickReads]

Ok, show then from scripture that repentance is a deed "ergon". I'll be surprised if you are able to do that.

There can be works of repentance that are associated with repentance but repentance is not a
work. It's not something you can do, it's a conviction.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The complete process would be salvation:

rebirth-->faith-->salvation (remission of sin)-->justification (declared, imputed righteousness-->sonship.

It's a one-package deal.

Except you have the new birth in the wrong order as per John 1:12-13 , John 3:16, Romans 10:9-13.

 

[Greg Cheney]

Understand, then, that rebellion is his way, and humanity —i.e. 'creaturehood'— defines his level of ignorance and integrity, so that only by the Spirit of God is there any value to his repentance, or even the reality (or 'kind') of conviction. Otherwise, you have "whereof to boast."

Repentance is admitting one has been wrong toward God and now one is submitting to God. There is no boasting when one repents. This is yet another Calvinist fallacy. There are no claims of self-merit in repentance.

 

[John Mullally]

Understand, then, that rebellion is his way, and humanity —i.e. 'creaturehood'— defines his level of ignorance and integrity, so that only by the Spirit of God is there any value to his repentance, or even the reality (or 'kind') of conviction. Otherwise, you have "whereof to boast."

Responding in humility to the conviction of the Holy Spirit is hardly self-righteous boasting. Be aware that Acts 7:51 shows that men can resist the Holy Spirit - so there is no irresistible grace.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

The complete process would be salvation:

rebirth-->faith-->salvation (remission of sin)-->justification (declared, imputed righteousness-->sonship.

It's a one-package deal.

The bible clearly says Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works lest any man shall boast. Now show me where in the bible it says you receive the rebirth, faith brings salvation. It would also be great to show rebirth, which is never shown in the bible as you stated it will bring faith, pass that we agree, looking forward to seeing your proof text in that order, reading out of the text and not having to read it into the text. Have a great day.

 

[RickReads]

Repentance IS a deed.

I`m serving God by repenting for my sins. How does that work?

 

[Clare73]

Correct and God can be resister too. So much for the “ I “ in tulip .

Responding in humility to the conviction of the Holy Spirit is hardly self-righteous boasting. Be aware that Acts 7:51 shows that men can resist the Holy Spirit - so
there is no irresistible grace.

"Irresistible" grace is not Calvin's construct.

Calvin's construct is God working in the disposition to give one to prefer his will, which one then freely chooses because it is what he prefers, likes.

Ezra 1:1 - God moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm.
Ezra 1:5 - God moved the hearts who prepared to go up and build the house.
Nehemiah 2:12 - . . .God had put it in Nehemiah's heart what to do for Jerusalem.
Nehemiah 7:5 - God put it in Nehemiah's heart to assemble the nobles. . .
Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
2 Corinthians 8:16 - God. . .put it into the heart of Titus. . .

 

[Der Alte]

Ok, show then from scripture that repentance is a deed "ergon". I'll be surprised if you are able to do that.

Romans 9:11
(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Galatians 2:16
(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ephesians 2:9
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5
(5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;​

God would not tell us so many times "not by works" then command us to repent if that was a work in His sight.

 

[Greg Cheney]

"Irresistible" grace is not Calvin's construct.

Calvin's construct is God working in the disposition to give one to prefer his will, which one then freely chooses because it is what he prefers, likes.

Ezra 1:1 - God moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm.
Ezra 1:5 - God moved the hearts who prepared to go up and build the house.
Nehemiah 2:12 - . . .God had put it in Nehemiah's heart what to do for Jerusalem.
Nehemiah 7:5 - God put it in Nehemiah's heart to assemble the nobles. . .
Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
2 Corinthians 8:16 - God. . .put it into the heart of Titus. . .

Of course God can influence people; so can Satan; so can you; so can I. It does not negate their free will.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did.

I`m serving God by repenting for my sins. How does that work?

Would it not show that you are obeying God by confessing your sin and thanking him for his forgiveness which we got when Jesus paid all our sin debt by laying down his life?

 

[RickReads]

"Irresistible" grace is not Calvin's construct.

Calvin's construct is God working in the disposition to give one to prefer his will, which one then freely chooses because it is what he prefers, likes.

Ezra 1:1 - God moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm.
Ezra 1:5 - God moved the hearts who prepared to go up and build the house.
Nehemiah 2:12 - . . .God had put it in Nehemiah's heart what to do for Jerusalem.
Nehemiah 7:5 - God put it in Nehemiah's heart to assemble the nobles. . .
Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
2 Corinthians 8:16 - God. . .put it into the heart of Titus. . .

In every case, the person had already chosen their path before God intervened in their lives.