What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Ok. If you can defeat the rest of Romans 7,8 and 9, or Phil 2:1-10, I'll provide more.

Phil 2:1-10 ? That's a new one... I don't see how this has anything to do with repentance or regeneration...

 

[zoidar]

But you are claiming that the "new birth" is not "regeneration"? Your descriptions certainly sound like regeneration to me.

My view is there is: conviction -> repentance -> new birth, regeneration, receiving the Spirit, salvation. (It's all the same)

 

[zoidar]

If you first must do something to qualify for Grace, it is not all of Grace, and you have merit whereof to boast.

When Paul talks about boasting, he means we can't earn salvation through deeds. Repentance is not a deed. Repentance comes from realizing one is lost, and in a need of forgiveness. So one turns to God for forgiveness and God bestows us forgiveness not from some good deed we have done, but through mercy, and that is what the Bible means by grace.

 

[zoidar]

Well... let me try to answer this. It seems to me your thinking is pretty vague; for instance, you say "...convicted, which leads to repentance, which leads to regeneration." You don't say HOW they are (or can be) convicted, nor how that leads to repentance, or how repentance leads to regeneration. You may suppose you (and others) have given some obvious references showing that from Scripture, and even some showing HOW, in Scripture, but I haven't seen them. Nor have I seen any reasoning that to me makes sense without that first mountain being moved out of the way: "The unregenerate are spiritually dead."

You said that you identify with the Arminians in this matter —(that the things God uses to draw people to himself come before the regeneration, but 'awaken the heart sufficiently' (I suppose?) to make a real decision for Christ. To my mind, Arminians have engineered a half-breed. How does one sort of become alive?

I don't fully know how Arminians teach, but I figure that I'm close to their understanding.

I will tell you how I think it normally works. Martin is dead in his sins. He is living in sin. One day he realizes that the life he is living is wrong. He starts reading the Bible and he realizes he is not heading for heaven. This means he is convicted. He understands the only hope for him is being forgiven, so he turns to God in prayer for forgiveness. Hearing Martin, God regenerates Martin giving him the Holy Spirit. Martin is now a saved believer, a child of God and he is changed to live a new life through the Spirit. His old life, living in sin is gone.

I believe that is the normal order of things. But I have talked with people that seems to have received instant salvation without any repentance or prayer. So I guess that happens too.

One passage comes to mind, but I will see what more I can come up with. I'll be back with that.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So let me spell this out with Scripture. The Spirit comes after faith, confession, repentance.The order below and scripture is consistent from both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......


Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving

Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Romans 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Romans 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Romans 8:30
9- Sanctification- Romans 8
10- Glorification Romans 8:30

conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

God does not toy with people as you might suggest. I do not consider the Lord to be a "trickster". I believe that God commands us to repent and that God would not do so unless we are able. Otherwise it is chicanery. The doctrines of Calvinism are poison and they slander the Lord. But at least you all are good for providing head-scratching ideas.

I could say that "you seem to think" that God is not omnipotent, but it would not further this conversation much. God is dead serious when he commands repentance, but the rebelling, of their own free will, always reject him, according to their will, unless he changes their will. I don't know how much more obvious it can be.

Even the Arminian notion of prevenient grace, for the sake of 'God honoring our self-determination' still involves the fact of God deciding to whom to give this prevenient grace! There is no logical way around the fact that God first decides, except by self-contradiction, or ignoring Scripture, or denying Scripture.

Grace is not unconditional. There is a difference between self-merit and repentance and obedience. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. Nowhere does God say "you people better repent of thinking you need to obey me to have my favor", he condemned self-righteousness and dead works. Calvinists butcher biblical terms; most serious people know that.

Grace by definition is unmerited. I do not say that all grace is unconditional. Even what Calvinists call Unconditional Grace could be said to be conditioned on God's decision, (but that is human-talk, in the way it ignores the Simplicity of God).

 

[Mark Quayle]

I will tell you how I think it normally works. Martin is dead in his sins. He is living in sin. One day he realizes that the life he is living is wrong. He starts reading the Bible and he realizes he is not heading for heaven. This means he is convicted. He understands the only hope for him is being forgiven, so he turns to God in prayer for forgiveness.

But HOW does Martin realize that the life he is living is wrong? Or maybe I should say, HOW does Martin realize that the life he is living is more than regrettable? Mere conscience (which, btw, is also by God's grace) may convict him too, or the Spirit may, but either way, that too is the work of God; yet Martin will rebel, even if he has a pretty good intellectual grasp, he will not understand the depth of his guilt. And if he thinks he repents, he doesn't realize he is too weak. It is only by the Spirit of God, that one's repentance is real, i.e, valid.

You have no way of bypassing this mountain: The natural man cannot please God, will not and cannot submit to God's law, has no true faith and does not comprehend spiritual things.

The depth of guilt, btw, is beyond even the intellectual grasp of the regenerate, but not beyond the grasp of the Spirit of God in the regenerate. To me, THAT, (the merit or ability of the Spirit of God alone to realize the Gospel), is the ultimate principle behind the Reformed doctrine of regeneration, and my notion of, indeed, that same salvific grace and salvific faith remaining and effecting all virtues of the Redeemed for the duration of the life of the Redeemed. We do so, because God does it in us.

I believe that is the normal order of things. But I have talked with people that seems to have received instant salvation without any repentance or prayer. So I guess that happens too.

So let me spell this out with Scripture. The Spirit comes after faith, confession, repentance.The order below and scripture is consistent from both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......


Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving

Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Romans 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Romans 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Romans 8:30
9- Sanctification- Romans 8
10- Glorification Romans 8:30

conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.

hope this helps !!!

It can appear to occur all of a lump. I don't even deny the order as it appears in the Scriptures that @Jesus is YHWH presents. What I deny is that regeneration is not 'begun' or effected before conviction and repentance. The logical sequence need not be shown, by way of cause-and-effect, to come up with the time sequence those verses show. I think that the new life is the continuing of the new birth. To put it crassly, more Spirit control is not more-valid Spirit, but more of the Spirit.

BTW, @Jesus is YHWH, the verses such as you show, and there are many more, that give an apparent time sequence, don't necessarily demonstrate even a time sequence. But it is nice, that you at least admit to the every-time need for rebirth. You just don't seem to understand what causes it. After all, it is an Arminian thing to say Calvinism teaches it is automatic, but now you teach an automatic Spirit involvement upon repentance/confession/acceptance.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I never have anything approaching those kinds of thoughts.

As a believer, choosing should be our response to following the direction in God's word and the leading of the Holy Spirit (mainly our conscience and our gut). When we error, we ask for forgiveness and make an adjustment.

Side Comment: Long ago as a school boy, I remembered hearing this acronym from the Navigators that really stuck with me - ACTS: Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, Supplication.

Oh NOOoooooo! Not a religious construct!!! @RickReads will get all over you for being unbiblical. After all, the Navigators haven't been around very long.

Choosing is indeed a response to direction in God's word, and the leading of the Holy Spirit, (and in response to many other things that present in our thinking and instinct). And responding to that is always going to be in rebellion, until we are regenerated.

 

[RickReads]

BTW, @Jesus is YHWH, the verses such as you show, and there are many more, that give an apparent time sequence, don't necessarily demonstrate even a time sequence. But it is nice, that you at least admit to the every-time need for rebirth. You just don't seem to understand what causes it. After all, it is an Arminian thing to say Calvinism teaches it is automatic, but now you teach an automatic Spirit involvement upon repentance/confession/acceptance.

He wasn't teaching automatic Spirit involvement. This is just another example of you injecting an issue that isn't addressed into the text.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

But HOW does Martin realize that the life he is living is wrong? Or maybe I should say, HOW does Martin realize that the life he is living is more than regrettable? Mere conscience (which, btw, is also by God's grace) may convict him too, or the Spirit may, but either way, that too is the work of God; yet Martin will rebel, even if he has a pretty good intellectual grasp, he will not understand the depth of his guilt. And if he thinks he repents, he doesn't realize he is too weak. It is only by the Spirit of God, that one's repentance is real, i.e, valid.

You have no way of bypassing this mountain: The natural man cannot please God, will not and cannot submit to God's law, has no true faith and does not comprehend spiritual things.

The depth of guilt, btw, is beyond even the intellectual grasp of the regenerate, but not beyond the grasp of the Spirit of God in the regenerate. To me, THAT, (the merit or ability of the Spirit of God alone to realize the Gospel), is the ultimate principle behind the Reformed doctrine of regeneration, and my notion of, indeed, that same salvific grace and salvific faith remaining and effecting all virtues of the Redeemed for the duration of the life of the Redeemed. We do so, because God does it in us.




It can appear to occur all of a lump. I don't even deny the order as it appears in the Scriptures that @Jesus is YHWH presents. What I deny is that regeneration is not 'begun' or effected before conviction and repentance. The logical sequence need not be shown, by way of cause-and-effect, to come up with the time sequence those verses show. I think that the new life is the continuing of the new birth. To put it crassly, more Spirit control is not more-valid Spirit, but more of the Spirit.

BTW, @Jesus is YHWH, the verses such as you show, and there are many more, that give an apparent time sequence, don't necessarily demonstrate even a time sequence. But it is nice, that you at least admit to the every-time need for rebirth. You just don't seem to understand what causes it. After all, it is an Arminian thing to say Calvinism teaches it is automatic, but now you teach an automatic Spirit involvement upon repentance/confession/acceptance.

Brother don't forget I was a staunch calvinist for over 4 decades so I'm very familiar with the order salutis as I taught it for years. And I also know the calvinist position on regeneration.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You and Clare have forced me to get technical. Normally I`d let it go. So try and get this because I don't want to add another 500 pages of a sideways circular debate. Regeneration in reference to conversion is found just once in the Bible and refers to the washing away of sin. The new birth is a reference to the complete process.

Your idea of regeneration is a Calvinist construct. Unbiblical.

You and Clare have forced me to get technical. Normally I`d let it go. So try and get this because I don't want to add another 500 pages of a sideways circular debate. Regeneration in reference to conversion is found just once in the Bible and refers to the washing away of sin. The new birth is a reference to the complete process.

Your idea of regeneration is a Calvinist construct. Unbiblical.

You are repeating your assertion, not demonstrating it. Do you need me to do it for you? Here ya go: "The translation, 'REGENERATION', is used just twice...[etc]. Therefore all other references to born-again, new birth, re-birth, new life, etc, are not about regeneration." —Such is the logic you present. And it is, at least to me, pretty obviously mistaken.

 

[RickReads]

Oh NOOoooooo! Not a religious construct!!! @RickReads will get all over you for being unbiblical. After all, the Navigators haven't been around very long.

Choosing is indeed a response to direction in God's word, and the leading of the Holy Spirit, (and in response to many other things that present in our thinking and instinct). And responding to that is always going to be in rebellion, until we are regenerated.

A religious construct is fine until we consider it scripture such is the epistle of TULIP

 

[RickReads]

You are repeating your assertion, not demonstrating it. Do you need me to do it for you? Here ya go: "The translation, 'REGENERATION', is used just twice...[etc]. Therefore all other references to born-again, new birth, re-birth, new life, etc, are not about regeneration." —Such is the logic you present. And it is, at least to me, pretty obviously mistaken.

Actually, you copied my post twice and your post doesn't make much sense.

I addressed the term new birth which refers to everything the Spirit does at the moment God receives a person as His child. The washing away of sin is one of several things that happen and you mocked me for saying so I found that odd even for a Calvinist.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Brother don't forget I was a staunch calvinist for over 4 decades so I'm very familiar with the order salutis as I taught it for years. And I also know the calvinist position on regeneration.

Yet, you conflate the life by the Spirit with the necessary regeneration by the Spirit in which the will of the fallen creature is changed. Like, admittedly, many Calvinists and Reformed, your monergism only applied to salvation, and not to the subsequent life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

A religious construct is fine until we consider it scripture such is the epistle of TULIP

"We", who? I don't consider TULIP scripture. I only consider it "from Scripture", and even then, only as far as it goes, not as it is extrapolated to imply by the many Arminian-leaning who depend on humanly understood principles instead of Scripture.

 

[Clare73]

No one is guilty of sin until they sin.

Romans 5:18 disagrees. . .we are guilty of condemnation at birth.

We are all condemned by Adam's guilt imputed to us (Romans 5:12-18), which is why all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law with the death penalty in force at the time and, therefore, no sin to cause death (Romans 6:23).
So why did they die? They died because of the guilt of Adam imputed/accounted/reckoned to them, as the pattern for the second Adam, Christ (Romans 5:14), whose righteousness is also imputed/accounted/ reckoned by faith, as it was imputed/accounted/reckoned to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

Ezekiel 18:20 - The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Deuteronomy 24:6 - Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
2 Kings 14:6 - Yet he did not put the sons of the murderers to death, but acted according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers must not be put to death for their children, and children must not be put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

Precisely. . .

We do not inherit guilt by birth, it is imputed/accounted/reckoned to us by God.

No one is exempt from condemnation (Romans 5:18).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Phil 2:1-10 ? That's a new one... I don't see how this has anything to do with repentance or regeneration...

Ha! Sorry about that! (Though, I think it does have to do with repentance and regeneration, by way of the meaning of the Gospel, in what Christ did), I meant Eph 2:1-10.

 

[John Mullally]

Oh NOOoooooo! Not a religious construct!!! @RickReads will get all over you for being unbiblical. After all, the Navigators haven't been around very long.

Their teaching does not slander God saying that He creates some that He "dooms from the womb".

Choosing is indeed a response to direction in God's word, and the leading of the Holy Spirit, (and in response to many other things that present in our thinking and instinct).

We agree up to this point and it shows that free will is important.

And responding to that is always going to be in rebellion, until we are regenerated.

I did not address this. We agree that man is depraved, in rebellion, and does not seek God. But I don't find where man cannot be reached by the Holy Spirit as is. If being born-again is required before responding to the Holy Spirit is an important truth, there would be scripture to explicitly state that.

 

[RickReads]

"We", who? I don't consider TULIP scripture. I only consider it "from Scripture", and even then, only as far as it goes, not as it is extrapolated to imply by the many Arminian-leaning who depend on humanly understood principles instead of Scripture.

No? As I recollect you claim Paul is summarizing Tulip in Ephesians 2.

 

[Mark Quayle]

My view is there is: conviction -> repentance -> new birth, regeneration, receiving the Spirit, salvation. (It's all the same)

I have no problem with a simultaneousness to "all the same". My problem is with cause-and-effect. None of these are of any value if it is not by the Spirit of God. They are false, if they are only the effect of our spirit.