What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?

[AbbaLove]

There was no mention of lamb (no lamb was needed since Yeshua would be that lamb). The meal was after sunset (the same day the lambs would be killed). After that meal, he was arrested and tried over night and crucified from 9 AM to 3 PM when the lambs were slain. He was taken down from the cross and buried before sunset. Did anyone ever think that this actually WAS a Passover type meal and that Yeshua had it the night before because all those dealing with His dead body would be impure the next evening (just a thought)? When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God"

Am beginning to get a better sense why Alex has run into a stone wall (metaphorically speaking) for the following reasons.

1) In Exodus the lambs were to be slain between twilights meaning between sunset and one hour later when the first stars were visible at the start of Nisan 14. However, some now interpret "between twilights" to mean sometime between 9 AM to 3 PM. More specifically the period of time "while darkness came over the whole land" as meaning between twilights. Because of a new covenant we can see how some may justify this interpretation of "between twilights." However, if the RCC and Christendom believed the "Last Supper" was on Maundy Thursday, while the crucifixion was on "Good Friday," what justification would they have for mistranslating scripture. Or to venture an improbable step further: What justification would Matthew, Mark and Luke have for misrepresenting the "Last Supper" as being a Passover Seder, if in fact it was more of a regular meal with leavened bread?

2) What is rather disturbing is the implication that Christendom (even the CJB translation) has incorrectly mistranslated key passages in Matthew 26:17-20, Mark 14:12-17, and Luke 22:1-14, in affect incorrectly implying that the "Last Supper" was a Passover Seder with matzah and roasted lamb? Alex Tennent presents a strong case that the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) was actually more of a regular meal including leavened bread and that the Passover Meal with matzah and roasted lamb actually took place on Nisan 15.

3) We all agree that Yeshua and His disciples ate the "Last Supper" after sunset at the beginning of Nisan 14, He was later arrested, beaten, crucified and placed in the tomb before sunset while it was still Nisan 14. The controversy seems to be whether the 1st day of Unleavened Bread and the Passover Meal, during the time of Yeshua, occurred on Nisan 14 or Nisan 15. Is it not possible that the timing of these Passover events have changed from the Exodus Passover Meal as well as the Temple events of Yeshua's days as compared to possibe changes instituted a thousand years later, if not a hundred years later, by Rabbinical Judaism. Possibly for reasons unclear to us, but presumably due to the Temple being destroyed in AD 70, their dispersion from Israel and possibly for convenience.

4) The controversy is whether or not the these scripture accounts in Matthew, Mark and Luke have been misrepresented and consequently mistranslated. One can understand why both Christians and Messianics would be reluctant to believe that the best Biblical scholars in the world have been misled and deceived for over a thousand years. It is hard to believe that the best Greek translators and Hebrew idiom scholars representing such a diveristy of Christian denominations and Messianic Judaism affiliations wouldn't have figured it out by now. Assuming Alex Tennent's research is valid it is perplexing why both Hebrew and Greek scholars wouldn't recognize and acknowledge his research as definitely worth consideration . Alex's contention that the actual Passover meal of roasted lamb and matzah took place during the evenng, at the beginning of Nisan 15, shouldn't be that diffifcult to substantiate by others. Afterall, Biblical scholars by their very nature are always searching for the Truth.

5) Perhaps another reason for Alex's belief that the "Last Supper" was more of a regular meal with leavened bread is: Why would Yeshua eat roasted lamb when He is the Lamb of God? However, wouldn't Yeshua have participated in Passover with His disciples the previous year or two prior to His "Last Supper" meal? Wouldn't it also stand to reason that Yeshua had eaten Passover Meals of roasted lamb and matzah for the past twenty years since His first Passover meal as a young man? So, from that viewpoint would it not make some sense that Yeshua would very much look forward to sharing His last Passover Meal (Last Supper) with His soon to be New Covenant Apostles.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The historian Josephus when, in referring to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 69-70 A.D. says: “So these high priests, upon the coming of their feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices from the ninth hour to the eleventh, found the number of sacrifices was two hundred and fifty six thousand five hundred” (Wars 6, 9, 3). Yeshua dies at the ninth hour (3 PM) and was buried before sunset. So we know if he died when the lambs were slain, the seder would have been held after then to eat the lamb.

“Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover” (John 18:28). This is obviously after the last supper and the Jewish leaders had not yet eaten the Passover.

“Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, Behold, your King!” (John 19:14).

“The Jews therefore, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away” (John 19:31).

“Therefore on account of the Jewish day of preparation, because the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there” (John 19:42).

Luke 22:15-16. “And he said to them, I have longingly desired to eat this coming Passover with you before My suffering: however, I tell you that I shall not eat of it, until it can be administered in the kingdom of God.”

Notice from these Scriptures that the last supper, Judas’ betrayal, Jesus’ trial and crucifixion, all occurred before Israel ate the Passover. These all occurred on the fourteenth, the day of preparation, the day when the Israelites made all the preparations to partake of the Passover.

 

[AbbaLove]

The historian Josephus when, in referring to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 69-70 A.D. says: “So these high priests, upon the coming of their feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices from the ninth hour to the eleventh, found the number of sacrifices was two hundred and fifty six thousand five hundred” (Wars 6, 9, 3).

Somehow, what I had previously drafted to add to your reply got lost. So for now will just add the following having read Alex's latest reply.

Yeshua, did tell His Disciples not to rock the boat when it came to confronting the Pharisees about their manmade ordinances. It's possible the Passover lambs originally (Lev 23:5) were not slain during the daylight hours. Afterall, the Egyptians would have wondered what the heck was going on. So it's very possible the first Passover lambs were slain after dusk without raising any suspicions. Afterall, they were making bricks during the daylight hours.

Yeshua knew that to expect the Pharisees to change Passover back to killing the lambs between the two twilights from dusk to darkness would be looked upon as folly, even by His Disciples. Apparently the Pharisees had the last word

The Pharisees, in accordance with their man-made Talmudic adherence, defined ben ha arbayim as any time from afternoon to sunset. Conversely, the Sadducees, Karaites, and Samaritans, in accordance with the Biblical Torah (law), all interpreted ben ha arbayim as being the time from sunset to complete darkness. ... http://yrm.org/keeping_passover_proper_time.htm

Does this quote "Talmudic adherence" imply Rabbinic Judaism after AD 70? Did the Talmud even exist at the time of Yeshua? So, maybe, just maybe, the Pharisees still held to the killing of the household lambs between dusk to starlight. The Pharisees may have already instituted the killing of the Sacrifical Lamb by the High Priest during the daylight hours, which just happened to be when Yeshua was crucified.

Do you buy the premise that the accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke are inaccurate misrepresentations that give the wrong impression that the "Last Supper" was a Passover Meal of roasted lamb and matzah? When, if in fact, it was more like a regular evening meal including leavened bread during the early evening hours of Nisan 14?

Can you understand why Alex has run into a stone wall even with his thorough scholarly research? It's a little perplexing why he hasn't yet found even one noted scholar that has come forward and said that he/she supports Alex's premise that the Passover (Seder) Meal actually occurred on (the evening?) of Nisan 15 and not on Nisan 14.

 

[Alex Tennent]

Am beginning to get a better sense why Alex has run into a stone wall (metaphorically speaking) for the following reasons.

1) In Exodus the lambs were to be slain between twilights meaning between sunset and one hour later when the first stars were visible at the start of Nisan 14. However, some now interpret "between twilights" to mean sometime between 9 AM to 3 PM. More specifically the period of time "while darkness came over the whole land" as meaning between twilights. Because of a new covenant we can see how some may justify this interpretation of "between twilights." However, if the RCC and Christendom believed the "Last Supper" was on Maundy Thursday, while the crucifixion was on "Good Friday," what justification would they have for mistranslating scripture. Or to venture an improbable step further: What justification would Matthew, Mark and Luke have for misrepresenting the "Last Supper" as being a Passover Seder, if in fact it was more of a regular meal with leavened bread?

2) What is rather disturbing is the implication that Christendom (even the CJB translation) has incorrectly mistranslated key passages in Matthew 26:17-20, Mark 14:12-17, and Luke 22:1-14, in affect incorrectly implying that the "Last Supper" was a Passover Seder with matzah and roasted lamb? Alex Tennent presents a strong case that the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) was actually more of a regular meal including leavened bread and that the Passover Meal with matzah and roasted lamb actually took place on Nisan 15.

3) We all agree that Yeshua and His disciples ate the "Last Supper" after sunset at the beginning of Nisan 14, He was later arrested, beaten, crucified and placed in the tomb before sunset while it was still Nisan 14. The controversy seems to be whether the 1st day of Unleavened Bread and the Passover Meal, during the time of Yeshua, occurred on Nisan 14 or Nisan 15. Is it not possible that the timing of these Passover events have changed from the Exodus Passover Meal as well as the Temple events of Yeshua's days as compared to possibe changes instituted a thousand years later, if not a hundred years later, by Rabbinical Judaism. Possibly for reasons unclear to us, but presumably due to the Temple being destroyed in AD 70, their dispersion from Israel and possibly for convenience.

4) The controversy is whether or not the these scripture accounts in Matthew, Mark and Luke have been misrepresented and consequently mistranslated. One can understand why both Christians and Messianics would be reluctant to believe that the best Biblical scholars in the world have been misled and deceived for over a thousand years. It is hard to believe that the best Greek translators and Hebrew idiom scholars representing such a diveristy of Christian denominations and Messianic Judaism affiliations wouldn't have figured it out by now. Assuming Alex Tennent's research is valid it is perplexing why both Hebrew and Greek scholars wouldn't recognize and acknowledge his research as definitely worth consideration . Alex's contention that the actual Passover meal of roasted lamb and matzah took place during the evenng, at the beginning of Nisan 15, shouldn't be that diffifcult to substantiate by others. Afterall, Biblical scholars by their very nature are always searching for the Truth.

5) Perhaps another reason for Alex's belief that the "Last Supper" was more of a regular meal with leavened bread is: Why would Yeshua eat roasted lamb when He is the Lamb of God? However, wouldn't Yeshua have participated in Passover with His disciples the previous year or two prior to His "Last Supper" meal? Wouldn't it also stand to reason that Yeshua had eaten Passover Meals of roasted lamb and matzah for the past twenty years since His first Passover meal as a young man? So, from that viewpoint would it not make some sense that Yeshua would very much look forward to sharing His last Passover Meal (Last Supper) with His soon to be New Covenant Apostles.

Great post AbbaLove. And I would like to add a few comments to your numbered points.
1. Many commentators want to view "between the evenings" as the time when three stars are visible. I think they do this for two reasons. Firstly, they desperately want to back up what they think is scripture prrof of Jesus eating the Passover at the last supper. And secondly, after the Temple was destroyed the Jews did add a late prayer service. Part of why my book is so big is beceause I knew I had to cover every single arguement. So here is a snippet from the chapter "Between the Evenings" that explains how this idea of a Passover after sunset came into play. This part comes right after I give the long Jewish history oif the Passover sacrifice being between noon and sunset, and here it is:


It is only when we come to theEnglish translations that the idea of after sunset appears for the time to slay the Passovers. All of the Jewish histories and the scriptures (when correctly translated) contradict such an idea. Remember that the English translations were written by people who came from a centuries-old tradition of Jesus eating the Passover at the Last Supper. So they wanted Jesus to both eat the Passover one night and be slain as the Passover the following day, and have both events somehow happen on the legal 14th day.

Part of the confusion over the proper time of “between the evenings” stems from the fact that the Jews added a late evening prayer called “Ma’ariv.” Gateway to Judaism describes the time for this late “evening” service as “twenty-five minutes after sundown, when three stars are visible.”[1] Many Bible commentators incorrectly refer to this time of evening “when three stars are visible” as the time to sacrifice the Passovers. However, Gateway to Judaism also makes it clear that “actually, there were only two services in the Temple—morning and afternoon. The late evening prayer was added afterthe destruction of the Second Temple.”[2]

So those who take the Hebrew phrase “between the evenings” to mean the time “when three stars are visible” are incorrect, because this “late evening” prayer did not exist in Jesus’s day. In fact, this late evening (non-Temple) service did not even come into being until many years after Christ was crucified, and therefore it has no bearing whatsoever.

All of this brings us to the New Testament evidence, which tells us the exact time of the day when the evening incense offering would follow the daily continual evening sacrificial offering and therefore also shows the proper time to slay the Passovers: (end quote)
2. Yes, I believe the last supper was at the end of the 13th day, or early after sunset into the 14th day, and that Jesus died at the exact time the Passovers were legally sacrificed, between noon and sunset on the 14th day.
4. I don't want to sound like all these commentators purposely hid things, as I do not see it that way. I more see it that they are certain of what has been handed down, and are therefore attempting to prove the bible account is true. The bible account is true, and Matthew Mark Luke and John all knew the last supper was not the Passover, because they all use the word for daily leavened bread for what they and the Messiah were eating. It is the translators who accidentally mistranslated those verses based on what they were sure had happened. Once the Jewish disconnect happened, Rome was not really big on bible facts, and the English translations came 1300 years or so after the Jewish disconnect took place (see Fourteenthers). So by this time the RCC tradition was seen as unquestioned fact. There are many Greek and Hebrew words that can be taken different ways depending on the context. The scripture also shows that there are certain truths that God seals up that are to be revealed at a future time, like in the days we live in. The Three Keys that Unlock the Gospels chapter (I posted in post 80) shows where they went wrong in their translations, and I will post that again here:http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Greek-Keys.pdf
Thanks again AbbaLove for your great points!

[1] Shulman, Gateway to Judaism, vol. 1, p. 331.

[2] Shulman, Gateway to Judaism, vol. 2, pp. 607–608.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

2. Yes, I believe the last supper was at the end of the 13th day, or early after sunset into the 14th day, and that Jesus died at the exact time the Passovers were legally sacrificed, between noon and sunset on the 14th day.
4. I don't want to sound like all these commentators purposely hid things, as I do not see it that way. I more see it that they are certain of what has been handed down, and are therefore attempting to prove the bible account is true. The bible account is true, and Matthew Mark Luke and John all knew the last supper was not the Passover, because they all use the word for daily leavened bread for what they and the Messiah were eating. It is the translators who accidentally mistranslated those verses based on what they were sure had happened. Once the Jewish disconnect happened, Rome was not really big on bible facts, and the English translations came 1300 years or so after the Jewish disconnect took place (see Fourteenthers). So by this time the RCC tradition was seen as unquestioned fact.

This is the same as what the Eastern Orthodox have been teaching and doing since the beginning.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Between the evenings defined

 

[AbbaLove]

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/nisan14p.htm
( this article by Hope of Israel Ministries certainly adds credibility to Alex Tennent's scholarly research )​

Although the last meal Yeshua had with his disciples could not have been the true Passover, because the time for that celebration had not yet arrived, it is distinctly possible that Yeshua did celebrate with them a type of "seder" or a "pre-Passover" instruction meal. However, he never commanded us to observe such a meal in addition to the Passover. To do so would simply be redundant. Certainly, also, he never told the disciples that he was replacing the Passover celebration, on the night of the l5th of Nisan, with a new and different ceremony, at a different time. Nowhere in the entire New Testament is such a commandment or instruction given!

Of course Christianity would have something to say about - "However, he never commanded us to observe such a meal in addition to the Passover." As Alex knows all too well the debate about the "Last Supper" vs the "Pascal Meal" may never be resolved to everyones satisfaction. The author does leave the door of compromise open a bit when he says - "... it is distinctly possible that Yeshua did celebrate with them a type of "seder" or a "pre-Passover" instruction meal." The article supports Alex's research that the actual Passover Meal did not take place until the evening at the beginning of Nisan 15. This does make sense as (unlike the Exodus account) it was not as neccesary to be in a rush to: kill, roast, eat and burn any leftovers with haste as today's Passover Feast is a celebration over several days. Therefore, the preparations for the evening Passover Meal during Temple times could be started in the early afternoon.

The Passover lambs were to be killed in the "evening" (after noon) of Nisan 14. That means toward the END of Nisan 14, or late afternoon. The "evening" of a day is not its beginning, but its ending, before sunset (see Exodus 12:18, Leviticus 23:32). In these verses, notice that the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins at the "evening" of the 14th of Nisan (leading into the high holy day of the 15th).

This article supports the belief that the evening "Last Supper" (during the first hours of Nisan 14) did not include unleavened bread. According to the author, John D. Keyser, the Feast of Unleavened Bread didn't begin until the "evening" of Nisan 14, leading into the High Sabbath of Nisan 15. What is most frustrating is that unless a most diligent scholar has a couple doctorate degrees and an impressive resume their efforts are often overlooked or even discounted. Don't give up

 

[Alex Tennent]

Between the evenings defined

Hoshiyya, I agree with that article but there is much better proof available (see my chapter on between the evenings) showing that the correct (and understood) time was between noon and sunset. If you picture the sun being connected to a latitude and longitude line as an "X" When the sun is straight up at noon one line is "even" with the horizon, and at sunset the other line is even with the horizon. The history from the Talmud and also both testaments on the bible are clear that it was from noon to sunset that was the only legal time to sacrifice the Passover.

 

[Alex Tennent]

This is the same as what the Eastern Orthodox have been teaching and doing since the beginning.

That would sure make sense Yeshua HaDerekh because they are the descendants of the Fourteenthers, those mostly Jewish groups that were scattered to the east (Asiatics). But I have never seen anything published or written by them showing these things? And part of the problem for those in the west is that the translations of Matthew Mark and Luke make it appeare obvious that the last supper was the Passover. When we debated this in the grad class about 30 years ago there just seemed to be no arguing with the English translations. And although it was an excellent bible college we were really weak in the Jewish idioms, and I (and most others) had not taken Greek yet (to better look at those verses). Do you know of any Eastern sources that have published their beliefs that the last supper was not the Passover meal? And even more important, if you know of any that explained the English scriptures as I did in my chapter (Three Keys..) I would sure like to see it. Thanks much!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I

That would sure make sense Yeshua HaDerekh because they are the descendants of the Fourteenthers, those mostly Jewish groups that were scattered to the east (Asiatics). But I have never seen anything published or written by them showing these things? And part of the problem for those in the west is that the translations of Matthew Mark and Luke make it appeare obvious that the last supper was the Passover. When we debated this in the grad class about 30 years ago there just seemed to be no arguing with the English translations. And although it was an excellent bible college we were really weak in the Jewish idioms, and I (and most others) had not taken Greek yet (to better look at those verses). Do you know of any Eastern sources that have published their beliefs that the last supper was not the Passover meal? And even more important, if you know of any that explained the English scriptures as I did in my chapter (Three Keys..) I would sure like to see it. Thanks much!

In the East it is called the "Mystical Supper" and leavened bread is used.

"The majority of scholars of the Last Supper do not believe that it was a Passover meal, a position consistent with the account given by John. A minority believe that it was a seder or Passover meal. However, as Enrico Mazza has argued, the minority view remains a theological interpretation. The historical fact is that the Last Supper was not a Passover celebration and, consequently, that its liturgy was not that of the Jewish Passover" (The Celebration of the Eucharist: The Origin of the Rite and the Development of Its Interpretation [Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1999] pp. 25-26).

The Orthodox Church uses leavened bread for, according to the Gospel of John, the Last Supper, trail and crucifixion took place during the evening, night and day time before Passover, therefore leavened bread was eaten in the Last Supper.

The Liturgy of St. James is served only in certain places. He was the first Bishop of Jerusalem. It is the oldest and longest of the liturgies. It varies greatly from the other liturgies celebrated by the church today in that it is celebrated outside the sanctuary facing the congregation.

The rubrics require that this liturgy is celebrated by a Bishop and twelve priests. In the absence of a Bishop, thirteen priests may celebrate the service.

 

[AbbaLove]

So those who take the Hebrew phrase “between the evenings” to mean the time “when three stars are visible” are incorrect, because this “late evening” prayer did not exist in Jesus’s day. In fact, this late evening (non-Temple) service did not even come into being until many years after Christ was crucified, and therefore it has no bearing whatsoever.

Before the Temple(s) were the family Paschal lambs slain by the men of the family? If that is true then all the lambs could have been slain in one hour between sunset and first starlight (twilight to twilight). Then roasted and eaten later that evening with matzah. ?

Exodus 12:6 CJB
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 ESV
and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.
Exodus 12:6 NIV
Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight.
Exodus 12:6 YLT
And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;

What is plausible is that all the translated verses are correct.

Can you envision that once upon a time there were so many Israelites (and Paschal lambs) that it literally took from "evening to evening" (24 hrs), beginning at twilight/dusk for the Temple Priest(s) to kill all of the lambs. By Yeshua's time it's possible that all the Paschal lambs (Judah & Benjamin) could have been slain between 9am to 3pm (6 hrs) by the Temple Priest(s).

 

[Alex Tennent]

Before the Temple(s) were the family Paschal lambs slain by the men of the family? If that is true then all the lambs could have been slain in one hour between sunset and first starlight (twilight to twilight). Then roasted and eaten later that evening with matzah. ?

Exodus 12:6 CJB
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 ESV
and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.
Exodus 12:6 NIV
Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight.
Exodus 12:6 YLT
And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;

What is plausible is that all the translated verses are correct.

Can you envision that once upon a time there were so many Israelites (and Paschal lambs) that it literally took from "evening to evening" (24 hrs), beginning at twilight/dusk for the Temple Priest(s) to kill all of the lambs. By Yeshua's time it's possible that all the Paschal lambs (Judah & Benjamin) could have been slain between 9am to 3pm (6 hrs) by the Temple Priest(s).

Yes AbbaLove, from everything I have seen it was the men that would take the lamb into the Temple, two from each gathered group. As for the timing, I think the important thing (at least for making proofs concerning the last supper) is what God's law was, and what the Jews throughout history believed the legal time was for a Passover. I believe the Talmud is a good reference for these things, as they did not have an axe to grind on these particular facts and wanted to preserve the history for future generations. There they are very clear that a Passover sacrifice brought before noon would not be valid. They were very serious about these things in the Temple. Josephus even states that the ministers were so dedicated that they went about their business even when the Romans were throwing stones down on them. So when the Talmud says the legal time was between noon and sunset, and all the scriptures agree, then I think we would have to agree with that unless other facts can be brought in. That chapter of my book (Between the Evenings) brings a quote from "Gateway to Judaism" by Albert Shulman that shows the late evening prayer service (when three stars are visible) happened after the Temple was destroyed, so that concept had no bearing in Yeshua's day. As an aside, the Talmud said all the leaven throughout the land had to be burned by 11:00am, because of the scripture where God says not to have leaven (on hand) when the legal time for the Passover arrives (noon). So if people are somehow sacrificing an illegal Passover as the 13th day ends, or when the 14th day just begins, they are also doing it illegally because there is leaven yet remaining throughout the land. And of course the Temple authorities would never allow people into the Temple at unlawful times for their Passover sacrifice. So the idea that the Messiah somehow sacrificed an illegal Passover for the last supper before the leaven was burned (a sin before God) does not fit with the reality of their day, and was rather a Roman invention.

 

[AbbaLove]

Alex,

Being that Yeshua was the perfect, spotless, unblemished Lamb of God, it's understandable why many Messianics think of unleavened bread (matzah) at the LS, when Yeshua said, "This is my body, which is given for your sake;" We also might agree that for Evangelicals to stop using unleavened bread (wafer) for their communion service would be viewed as sacrilege.

John D. Keyser in his Hope Of Israel Ministries article ( http://www.hope-of-israel.org/nisan14p.htm ) writes …

Although the last meal Yeshua had with his disciples could not have been the true Passover, because the time for that celebration had not yet arrived, it is distinctly possible that Yeshua did celebrate with them a type of "seder" or a "pre-Passover" instruction meal. However, he never commanded us to observe such a meal in addition to the Passover. To do so would simply be redundant. Certainly, also, he never told the disciples that he was replacing the Passover celebration, on the night of the l5th of Nisan, with a new and different ceremony, at a different time. Nowhere in the entire New Testament is such a commandment or instruction given!

1 Corinthians 11:26 (CJB)
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord, until He comes.

1) Is it your understanding that the above scripture does not refer to the annual (unleavened) Passover Seder Meal on Nisan 15, but rather the Last Supper on Nisan 14 ?
2) Is it possible that the above scripture was an introduction to a New Covenant (leavened) Communion Meal among Messianic Jews gathered together for fellowship? (Acts 2:43-45).

Acts 2:43-45
43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.…


It becomes apparent that 1 Cor. 11:26 does not apply only to once a year at a Passover Seder in that Yeshua and His Dsiciples were eating leavened bread a day before the Passover meal? One gets the impression that the “Last Supper” (1 Cor. 11:26) was an introduction to what would become a New Covenant for both Jew and non-Jew.

Perhaps what a misinformed Messianic Rabbi could say is, "If you think the Last Supper was a Passover Seder you need to get Alex Tennent's book, The Messianic Feast: Moving Beyond The Ritual"

 

[visionary]

It is not conceivable that Yeshua would institute something that was not already addressed at Mount Sinai. That is His framework.

 

[Alex Tennent]

Alex,

Being that Yeshua was the perfect, spotless, unblemished Lamb of God, it's understandable why many Messianics think of unleavened bread (matzah) at the LS, when Yeshua said, "This is my body, which is given for your sake;" We also might agree that for Evangelicals to stop using unleavened bread (wafer) for their communion service would be viewed as sacrilege.

John D. Keyser in his Hope Of Israel Ministries article ( http://www.hope-of-israel.org/nisan14p.htm ) writes …


1 Corinthians 11:26 (CJB)
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord, until He comes.

1) Is it your understanding that the above scripture does not refer to the annual (unleavened) Passover Seder Meal on Nisan 15, but rather the Last Supper on Nisan 14 ?
2) Is it possible that the above scripture was an introduction to a New Covenant (leavened) Communion Meal among Messianic Jews gathered together for fellowship? (Acts 2:43-45).

Acts 2:43-45
43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.…


It becomes apparent that 1 Cor. 11:26 does not apply only to once a year at a Passover Seder in that Yeshua and His Dsiciples were eating leavened bread a day before the Passover meal? One gets the impression that the “Last Supper” (1 Cor. 11:26) was an introduction to what would become a New Covenant for both Jew and non-Jew.

Perhaps what a misinformed Messianic Rabbi could say is, "If you think the Last Supper was a Passover Seder you need to get Alex Tennent's book, The Messianic Feast: Moving Beyond The Ritual"

AbbaLove thank you for your excellent questions! Let me first respond to this idea put forth by many commentators that the Messiah’s last supper was about a Seder instruction. I don’t want to sound harsh but this is a very silly concept. These Jewish men who had followed the Messiah for years had grown up attending the Passovers in Jerusalem, they had gone to the Temple many times for all the sacrifices, they grew up in families that kept the Passover every year. They did not need any instruction on how to eat a piece of Matzah or how to have a sip of new wine. The idea of four cups of wine at Passover was only a Pharisaic creation anyway, it is not found in the scriptures, and the Messiah was never one to be bound by Pharisaic traditions. The only reason this concept of an instructional Seder came about is because bible commentators had to have some way to explain the English translations (like Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, and Luke 22:7) which seem to make it obvious that the last supper was the Passover. Since the translators believed Rome’s tradition was correct, that it was the Passover, they therefore translated these few verses according to what they thought was truth. For any who may have not seen that chapter where I explain those English translations, and how they should have been translated, it can be found here: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Greek-Keys.pdf

And now to your good questions:

1 Corinthians 11:26 (CJB)
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord, until He comes.

1) Is it your understanding that the above scripture does not refer to the annual (unleavened) Passover Seder Meal on Nisan 15, but rather the Last Supper on Nisan 14 ?

Yes, and one huge reason is because the Jewish writers all use the regular word for leavened daily bread (arton, in 10 scriptures) for what they and the Messiah were eating at this meal. If it were really the Passover, all it takes is one more Greek letter to use the word for unleavened bread (azumos). These Jewish followers of the Messiah would not have written to the whole Jewish world saying they all ate “regular bread” at Passover, if it had really been a Passover. Even today, Jewish people do not proclaim to each other that they had some great “bread” at Passover. I do not believe that the Messiah was into creating new rituals and dry liturgies, but rather that he was speaking spiritual truth for the promised new covenant that he was then bringing in. And to answer your above question more specifically, Course 5 in my book explains what the above verse was really meaning, but for brevity here let me just give you a nutshell answer. All through Corinthians chapters 10 through 12 Paul is often speaking spiritually (the Messiah often did that, as did all the Jews), you see that in 1 Cor 10:3, 4 where he says that the Israelites under Moses drank spiritual drink and ate spiritual food. They did not actually do that, but the rock that provided them drink and the manna that provided them “bread from heaven” both pointed forward to the spiritual food and drink that the Messiah has provided for us in the new covenant. Paul says that the rock in the wilderness was Christ. But again he is speaking spiritually, it pointed forward to Christ, it was not really Jesus using a rock costume. And all through chapter 12 Paul speaks of the “body” of Christ but each time he means it spiritually, not once in 18 times there does he refer to Jesus human body, but to the spiritual body of Christ, the believers. So yes, the verse above was not Yeshua or Paul creating a new dry ritual for everyone to follow.


2) Is it possible that the above scripture was an introduction to a New Covenant (leavened) Communion Meal among Messianic Jews gathered together for fellowship? (Acts 2:43-45).

No, because they would have used unleavened bread to teach that, if it was something they wanted. And as far as it being sacrilege that the bread be leavened when the sinless Yeshua said “this is my body,” then why did he and the Jewish followers all use the daily word for leavened bread? Would Paul thus “taint” the body of Christ by referring to it using the Greek word for daily leavened bread? It must be remembered that the apostles all went out teaching that now, we are the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it). Paul did not pick this teaching out of the air. When Abraham or Elijah died the Jews did not become their bodies, but Paul understood what the Messiah meant at the last supper parable when he broke the one leavened bread and said this is my body. Paul received special revelation from the Lord as to what he meant, and he had previously taught the Corinthians these things when he was with them (1 Cor 11:23). (end answer)

It becomes apparent that 1 Cor. 11:26 does not apply only to once a year at a Passover Seder in that Yeshua and His Disciples were eating leavened bread a day before the Passover meal? One gets the impression that the “Last Supper” (1 Cor. 11:26) was an introduction to what would become a New Covenant for both Jew and non-Jew.

(Yes, I totally agree.)

Perhaps what a misinformed Messianic Rabbi could say is, "If you think the Last Supper was a Passover Seder you need to get Alex Tennent's book, The Messianic Feast: Moving Beyond The Ritual"

Yes AbbaLove! And thank you again : )

 

[Hoshiyya]

It is not conceivable that Yeshua would institute something that was not already addressed at Mount Sinai. That is His framework.

Here's why I agree:

His framework is contractuality. Consistency. Trustworthiness.

The kind of abrogation of law that Christianity teaches and imputes onto God and his kingdom is a kind of abrogation of law that could never work with a real judge and a real state.

Imagine if a judge said: I will punish you people for breaking Shabbat, for a few centuries, but the time will come when I will no longer enforce this law, because it is a law of death.

Here's what should be clarified:

There is such a thing as acceptable additions. Israel had 4 annual fasts, (Zechariah 8:19,) besides the Yom Hakippurim, which were totally acceptable to God even though they were not in the Torah. God not only accepts these, but even prophecies about how they will be further modified and made into a popular practice in the Millennial kingdom.

Basically there are unlawful or unacceptable additions, which actually alter the message of the Bible and hence is just another way of saying subtractions. Unlawful additions always include some form of subtraction from God's message.

Then there are the lawful or acceptable additions. The lawful additions are "decoration". You know, certain calligraphists have a practice of giving certain letters in the Hebrew alphabeth "crowns". In a similar vein, the ancient Jews believed that after God created the world, his angel, the Angel of the Lord, Metatron, went about decorating and adding to the creation. Similarly, a wife decorates the house that her husband may have bought or even built. This is not an "unlawful addition" to her husband's house, it is an improvement.

 

[Hoshiyya]

So true and something I wish was addressed more seriously when it comes to Orthodoxy (be it Eastern or Oriental). To see the rich Jewish heritage present there and the history with practices and the Jewish Church Fathers, I am always intrigued when a Western model is accepted but the earlier model is not really something people are aware of.

I don't see why the teachings of God should be "partnered" with any other systems.

 

[Hank77]

Yes, he was sure a special man. I think he was an early help for me to start looking at the scriptures through the first-century Jewish perspective, instead of the somewhat Roman grid that was handed down.

Some may not approve but it was Joseph Prince that first got me really digging for the Jewishness that was missing from my Christian understandings. He has Messianic friends and goes to Israel often. He has a teaching about the Lord's Supper and that we should partake often and in our homes as well as in the assembly. It was through him that I learned many things about the types and shadows in the OT, the Hebrew language, etc.
You might consider sending him your book. I'm going to be reading it. Thanks Alex. May the Lord bless you and your work.

 

[Alex Tennent]

Thank you very much Hank, and yes, I have seen Joseph Prince and enjoyed his messages. I have thought about sending him my book and maybe I should do that. Another who teaches that we should do a sort of last supper ritual in our homes daily is Perry Stone. He believes that is how we will get more healing. However I still believe they are missing what the Jewish Messiah was really meaning in his parable. I think when we view these things from the first-century Jewish idioms, and the scriptures that say Jesus/Yeshua almost always spoke in parables, it becomes clear that he was rather teaching spiritual truth for the new testament. So when he held and broke one leavened bread into pieces, and then told them to partake of it, and said "this is my body" it would make no sense from their Jewish point of view that he wanted a new ritual where they remember him by eating bread that was his body. The Jews never did these types of things, it took the RCC to come up with a ritual where you are actually eating the flesh of the Messiah in their ritual. When the Protestants left the RCC they dropped that aspect of the ritual, but they still didn't understand what the Messiah was meaning. Some of what he was revealing has to do with the long Jewish history of the 12 Showbread in the Temple each Sabbath, which represented the twelve tribes of Israel. Only the priests from the higher order would partake of those breads each Sabbath in the Temple, and they did not see it as a ritual of eating the twelve tribes (Course 7 of my book goes into that, and some in Courses 3 and 4). In the new covenant we are no longer twelve tribes (or 12 Showbread), but we the believers are all one in the Messiah. He is the one bread, the bread of life, and we are the pieces, members of his body. That's what Paul understood: "1 Corinthians 10:17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread."
And thank you again for your nice comment Hank, much appreciated. Lord bless you, Alex

 

[Alex Tennent]

Some may not approve but it was Joseph Prince that first got me really digging for the Jewishness that was missing from my Christian understandings. He has Messianic friends and goes to Israel often. He has a teaching about the Lord's Supper and that we should partake often and in our homes as well as in the assembly. It was through him that I learned many things about the types and shadows in the OT, the Hebrew language, etc.
You might consider sending him your book. I'm going to be reading it. Thanks Alex. May the Lord bless you and your work.

Hank, I forgot to hit the reply button when I responded to your post, so in case you don't get that notification you can see I responded to you just before this one, post 99. Sorry everyone! : o