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What is the truth?

John 1720

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Does this also mean, radical islamic terrorists have credibility, because they are willing to be martyred? Or does this assumption of willing to die that gives one credibility, only apply to christians?
You are missing a key factor by that comparison. Since the Apostles and the disciples of Apostles wrote the Gospels and Epistles then by the merits of your postulate they would have had to gone to their deaths full well knowing they fabricated the story. That is not the same for the deluded souls who think they are going to heaven to be with 70 virgins for blowing up innocent men, women and children along with themselves. Your hypothesis is apples and crab apples since the suicidal terrorists believe they are holy martyrs. Instead they will be awakened to the judgment as murderers as their father the devil will. They are to be pitied more than their victims because of their eternal state. These deluded people have bought into the Sura's that make jihad and martyrdom killings righteous but in doing so they blasheme God.
Coverseley, the writers of the New Testament were eyewitnesses to the miracles and power of Jesus and had a front row seat to the resurrected Christ along with their contemporaries who witnessed these events. If they had knowing lied would they have been as willing to die for the Gospel? Even most of the leaders of the current Islamic terrorist movement aren't the ones committing suicide instead they dupe others to do the shameful acts we see. Their leaders may believe the Quran' but just as easily utilize it for their own political gain. However the writers of the Quran' did not commit suicide but only sought conquest by violence. So Christianity spread the good news of the Gospel and Islam spread the Quran' by the sword. That's a big difference between the two in my book.

In Christ, John 1720
 
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possibletarian

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What is the truth?
The truth is:

I'm not as funny as I thought I was
I'm not as thin as I used to be
I tell lies even when I think I'm telling the truth
I don't follow the Gospels religiously. Should I?
elusive and maybe it should stay that way
I spend too much time on these forums but what the Hell....
painful sometimes

I have waited a while to reply to this one because though it's a short question it certainly is not a simple one.

I think something can be true, Like I typed this reply, and I'm as confident as it is possible to be that it is true. However 'Truth' seems to be a different question.

I've found peace knowing I may know a collection of things I consider to be true, but 'truth' seems an all binding concept that strays just beyond my ability to grasp as concept. Even keeping an open mind seems near impossible as we are shaped by so many different idea's and thoughts.

To me a philosophical truth just always seems to be beyond my reach, surreal almost.

Andy
 
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possibletarian

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John 1720

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This is almost certainly not true
www.biblicalarchaeology.org
Early witnesses of the 4 Gospels
  • On the Composition and Order of all Four Gospels, again citing Clement of Alexandria:Again, in the same books [the Hypotyposes], Clement gives the tradition of the earliest presbyters, as to the order of the Gospels, in the following manner: "The Gospels containing the genealogies [i.e. Matthew and Luke], he says, were written first. The Gospel according to MARK had this occasion. As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out. And having composed the Gospel he gave it to those who had requested it. When Peter learned of this, he neither directly forbade nor encouraged it. But, last of all, JOHN, perceiving that the external facts had been made plain in the Gospel, being urged by his friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel." This is the account of Clement. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 6.14.5-7).

Your article does not state that John didn't write the Gospel - they are agnostic on the point but ignore the witness of history

The early witnesses do attest that he did, including Irenaeus who was directly in line generationally to the Apostle. Orthodox tradition attributes all the books to John the Apostle -any dispersions creating doubt had their genesis in the 6th century or later.

Irenaeus and the Gospel according to Matthew
Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses:

Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. For that according to John expounds his princely and mighty and glorious birth from the Father, saying, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,' and, 'All things were made by him, and without him nothing was nothing made' . Therefore this Gospel is deserving of all confidence, for such indeed is his person. (3.11.8)

That the Apostle John lived to old age in Ephesus, citing Irenaeus
[Bishop of Lyon in Southern France; lived c. 130 - c. 200)
At this time, while Anicetus was at the head of the church of Rome (ca. 155-66), IRENAEUS relates that Polycarp, who was still alive, was at Rome, and that he had a conference with Anicetus on a question concerning the day of the paschal feast. And the same writer gives another account of Polycarp which I feel constrained to add to that which has been already related in regard to him. The account is taken from the third book of Irenaeus' work Against Heresies, and is as follows: "But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and acquainted with many that had seen Christ, but was also appointed by apostles in Asia bishop of the church of Smyrna. We too saw him in our early youth; for he lived a long time, and died, when a very old man, a glorious and most illustrious martyr's death, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, which the Church also hands down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those who, down to the present time, have succeeded Polycarp, who was a much more trustworthy and certain witness of truth than Valentinus and Marcion and the rest of the heretics. He also was in Rome in the time of Anicetus and caused many to turn away from the above-mentioned heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received from the apostles this one and only system of truth which has been transmitted by the Church. And there are those that heard from him (Polycarp) that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe in Ephesus and seeing Cerinthus within, ran out of the bath-house without bathing, crying, 'Let us flee, lest even the bath fall, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within.' And Polycarp himself, when Marcion once met him and said, 'Knowest thou us?' replied, 'I know the first born of Satan.'

The Authorship of the Gospel of John

The universal testimony of the early church fathers is that John the Apostle, the beloved disciple, wrote the Gospel of John.

Craig Keener states the position of the early church fathers,

“Consonant with what we find from the internal evidence, church tradition identifies the author of the Fourth Gospel with the Apostle John.”1


D.A. Carson concurs,

“We have already traced the principal 'external evidence' (i.e. evidence outside the Fourth Gospel itself) that maintains the Evangelist was none other than the apostle John, the son of Zebedee. That evidence, such as it is, is virtually unanimous. Even if Irenaeus, toward the end of the second century, is amongst the strongest, totally unambiguous witnesses, his personal connection with Polycarp, who knew John, means the distance in terms of personal memories is not very great. Even Dodd, who discounts the view that the apostle John wrote the Fourth Gospel, considers the external evidence 'formidable', adding, 'Of any external evidence to the contrary that could be called cogent I am not aware' (HTFG, p. 2; cf. also Robinson, John, pp. 99-104).2

The following church fathers clearly state this.3

Their testimony begins with the earliest and moves to the later ones.

John, who was an apostle and the “disciple whom Jesus loved” wrote the Gospel of John at Ephesus in Asia (Minor).

Irenaeus makes a general statement of the origins of the four gospels including the Gospel of John in his Against Heresies (3.1.1).

“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.”

In this passage, Irenaeus tells us several important points about the author of the Fourth Gospel. First, it was John the Apostle. The description “the disciple of the Lord who leaned on Jesus’ breast” comes from John 13:23-25 where the apostles were with Jesus at the last supper. Although the Fourth Gospel does not identify this particular apostle, Irenaeus does. He says this was John and this John wrote the Gospel. This is important because some scholars try to say that John the Apostle did not write the Fourth Gospel, but that this “disciple who leaned on Jesus’ breast” who was not John did. Irenaeus says clearly they were one and the same person. Irenaeus’ testimony is very important because he was a person who was in a position to know who the author of the fourth gospel was.

Thiessen explains the significance of Irenaeus’ testimony,

“From Irenaeus on the evidence becomes clear and full. He himself frequently quotes the Gospel of John, and he does it in such a way as to show that it had long been known and used in the Church. His testimony is perhaps the most important of all the testimonies, for he was a pupil of Polycarp, and Polycarp was a friend of the Apostle John.…

Eusebius has preserved a part of a letter of Irenaeus to Florinus, in which the writer tells of his vivid recollection of the account that Polycarp gave of his intercourse with John who had seen the Lord. He has also preserved a statement from a letter of Irenaeus to Victor the Bishop of Rome, to the effect that ‘Anicetus could not persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord and the other Apostles with whom he had associated.’

It is thus evident that Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle and that Irenaeus had heard Polycarp tell of his intercourse with him. The testimony of Irenaeus may, therefore, be taken as the testimony of Polycarp, and of the Apostle himself.”4

Tertullian also asserts John’s authorship of the gospel in his work, Against Marcion (4.2),

PAPIAS
 
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possibletarian

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Early witnesses of the 4 Gospels
  • On the Composition and Order of all Four Gospels, again citing Clement of Alexandria:Again, in the same books [the Hypotyposes], Clement gives the tradition of the earliest presbyters, as to the order of the Gospels, in the following manner: "The Gospels containing the genealogies [i.e. Matthew and Luke], he says, were written first. The Gospel according to MARK had this occasion. As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out. And having composed the Gospel he gave it to those who had requested it. When Peter learned of this, he neither directly forbade nor encouraged it. But, last of all, JOHN, perceiving that the external facts had been made plain in the Gospel, being urged by his friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel." This is the account of Clement. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 6.14.5-7).

Your article does not state that John didn't write the Gospel - they are agnostic on the point but ignore the witness of history

The early witnesses do attest that he did, including Irenaeus who was directly in line generationally to the Apostle. Orthodox tradition attributes all the books to John the Apostle -any dispersions creating doubt had their genesis in the 6th century or later.

Irenaeus and the Gospel according to Matthew
Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses:

Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. For that according to John expounds his princely and mighty and glorious birth from the Father, saying, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,' and, 'All things were made by him, and without him nothing was nothing made' . Therefore this Gospel is deserving of all confidence, for such indeed is his person. (3.11.8)

That the Apostle John lived to old age in Ephesus, citing Irenaeus
[Bishop of Lyon in Southern France; lived c. 130 - c. 200)
At this time, while Anicetus was at the head of the church of Rome (ca. 155-66), IRENAEUS relates that Polycarp, who was still alive, was at Rome, and that he had a conference with Anicetus on a question concerning the day of the paschal feast. And the same writer gives another account of Polycarp which I feel constrained to add to that which has been already related in regard to him. The account is taken from the third book of Irenaeus' work Against Heresies, and is as follows: "But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and acquainted with many that had seen Christ, but was also appointed by apostles in Asia bishop of the church of Smyrna. We too saw him in our early youth; for he lived a long time, and died, when a very old man, a glorious and most illustrious martyr's death, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, which the Church also hands down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those who, down to the present time, have succeeded Polycarp, who was a much more trustworthy and certain witness of truth than Valentinus and Marcion and the rest of the heretics. He also was in Rome in the time of Anicetus and caused many to turn away from the above-mentioned heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received from the apostles this one and only system of truth which has been transmitted by the Church. And there are those that heard from him (Polycarp) that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe in Ephesus and seeing Cerinthus within, ran out of the bath-house without bathing, crying, 'Let us flee, lest even the bath fall, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within.' And Polycarp himself, when Marcion once met him and said, 'Knowest thou us?' replied, 'I know the first born of Satan.'

The Authorship of the Gospel of John

The universal testimony of the early church fathers is that John the Apostle, the beloved disciple, wrote the Gospel of John.

Craig Keener states the position of the early church fathers,

“Consonant with what we find from the internal evidence, church tradition identifies the author of the Fourth Gospel with the Apostle John.”1


D.A. Carson concurs,

“We have already traced the principal 'external evidence' (i.e. evidence outside the Fourth Gospel itself) that maintains the Evangelist was none other than the apostle John, the son of Zebedee. That evidence, such as it is, is virtually unanimous. Even if Irenaeus, toward the end of the second century, is amongst the strongest, totally unambiguous witnesses, his personal connection with Polycarp, who knew John, means the distance in terms of personal memories is not very great. Even Dodd, who discounts the view that the apostle John wrote the Fourth Gospel, considers the external evidence 'formidable', adding, 'Of any external evidence to the contrary that could be called cogent I am not aware' (HTFG, p. 2; cf. also Robinson, John, pp. 99-104).2

The following church fathers clearly state this.3

Their testimony begins with the earliest and moves to the later ones.

John, who was an apostle and the “disciple whom Jesus loved” wrote the Gospel of John at Ephesus in Asia (Minor).

Irenaeus makes a general statement of the origins of the four gospels including the Gospel of John in his Against Heresies (3.1.1).

“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.”

In this passage, Irenaeus tells us several important points about the author of the Fourth Gospel. First, it was John the Apostle. The description “the disciple of the Lord who leaned on Jesus’ breast” comes from John 13:23-25 where the apostles were with Jesus at the last supper. Although the Fourth Gospel does not identify this particular apostle, Irenaeus does. He says this was John and this John wrote the Gospel. This is important because some scholars try to say that John the Apostle did not write the Fourth Gospel, but that this “disciple who leaned on Jesus’ breast” who was not John did. Irenaeus says clearly they were one and the same person. Irenaeus’ testimony is very important because he was a person who was in a position to know who the author of the fourth gospel was.

Thiessen explains the significance of Irenaeus’ testimony,

“From Irenaeus on the evidence becomes clear and full. He himself frequently quotes the Gospel of John, and he does it in such a way as to show that it had long been known and used in the Church. His testimony is perhaps the most important of all the testimonies, for he was a pupil of Polycarp, and Polycarp was a friend of the Apostle John.…

Eusebius has preserved a part of a letter of Irenaeus to Florinus, in which the writer tells of his vivid recollection of the account that Polycarp gave of his intercourse with John who had seen the Lord. He has also preserved a statement from a letter of Irenaeus to Victor the Bishop of Rome, to the effect that ‘Anicetus could not persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord and the other Apostles with whom he had associated.’

It is thus evident that Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle and that Irenaeus had heard Polycarp tell of his intercourse with him. The testimony of Irenaeus may, therefore, be taken as the testimony of Polycarp, and of the Apostle himself.”4

Tertullian also asserts John’s authorship of the gospel in his work, Against Marcion (4.2),

PAPIAS

Yes they are agnostic on the issue, which means that they simply don't know, they have no case to prove either way, which is perhaps the most intellectually honest position to take.
Either way to say that John definitely wrote the gospel, simply is not true.
 
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Freodin

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Christ is the only truth. If 2+2=4 (talking about rational, positive integers- here)- it can not be 2+3=4. One is the truth, all other options are NOT truth.

Jesus said "I am THE way, THE truth, THE life." Not, I am A truth.

I don't know Greek, but I'd be willing to bet that in the original, the articles would be pretty definite.
So, if Jesus is THE truth, "2+2=4" cannot be? Or Jesus equals "2+2=4"?

Truth is a human abstraction. In reality, there is no truth - there only is reality.

And that's the truth. ;)
 
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bhsmte

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You are missing a key factor by that comparison. Since the Apostles and the disciples of Apostles wrote the Gospels and Epistles then by the merits of your postulate they would have had to gone to their deaths full well knowing they fabricated the story. That is not the same for the deluded souls who think they are going to heaven to be with 70 virgins for blowing up innocent men, women and children along with themselves. Your hypothesis is apples and crab apples since the suicidal terrorists believe they are holy martyrs. Instead they will be awakened to the judgment as murderers as their father the devil will. They are to be pitied more than their victims because of their eternal state. These deluded people have bought into the Sura's that make jihad and martyrdom killings righteous but in doing so they blasheme God.
Coverseley, the writers of the New Testament were eyewitnesses to the miracles and power of Jesus and had a front row seat to the resurrected Christ along with their contemporaries who witnessed these events. If they had knowing lied would they have been as willing to die for the Gospel? Even most of the leaders of the current Islamic terrorist movement aren't the ones committing suicide instead they dupe others to do the shameful acts we see. Their leaders may believe the Quran' but just as easily utilize it for their own political gain. However the writers of the Quran' did not commit suicide but only sought conquest by violence. So Christianity spread the good news of the Gospel and Islam spread the Quran' by the sword. That's a big difference between the two in my book.

In Christ, John 1720
Couple things. We dont know who wrote the gospels, they are considered anonymous writings by the vast majority of academic, Phd level NT historians, which the majority of are christians. Gospels were penned many decades after the proposed events and the names of the authors, were not attached to them until 100+ years after they were written. Second, humans are fully capable of fabricating stories to fullfill psychological needs. Also, people are willing to be martyrs for all kinds of causes, which has no relation to whether those causes are actually true.
 
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Galatea

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So, if Jesus is THE truth, "2+2=4" cannot be? Or Jesus equals "2+2=4"?

Truth is a human abstraction. In reality, there is no truth - there only is reality.

And that's the truth. ;)
This is going to sound a bit mad, maybe it is. I believe that all truth is in Christ. All truths, like 2+2=4, and reality.
 
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Freodin

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This is going to sound a bit mad, maybe it is. I believe that all truth is in Christ. All truths, like 2+2=4, and reality.
If you yourself wonder if this sounds "a bit mad"... maybe it should give you pause.

There is only reality. It is. It is not "in" anything. It cannot be, because it does encompass everything and cannot exclude anything. There cannot be anything "lost" in reality.
 
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Galatea

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If you yourself wonder if this sounds "a bit mad"... maybe it should give you pause.

There is only reality. It is. It is not "in" anything. It cannot be, because it does encompass everything and cannot exclude anything. There cannot be anything "lost" in reality.
I knew my comment would open a can of worms, especially since I can not correctly put in words what I think is ultimately true.

It is kind of a metaphysical thing, I suppose. What you describe as reality, I describe as Christ.
He encompasses reality, and if one is in Him, one can not be lost.

I suppose believing in Christ is like choosing the red pill.

Anything else is the blue pill, only waking up is death.
 
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Freodin

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I knew my comment would open a can of worms, especially since I can not correctly put in words what I think is ultimately true.

It is kind of a metaphysical thing, I suppose. What you describe as reality, I describe as Christ.
He encompasses reality, and if one is in Him, one can not be lost.

I suppose believing in Christ is like choosing the red pill.

Anything else is the blue pill, only waking up is death.
That is explicitly NOT what I described as reality.
There is only reality. There is no "if". There is no "anything else".
 
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Galatea

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That is explicitly NOT what I described as reality.
There is only reality. There is no "if". There is no "anything else".
Well, you must admit, there are people who are not in reality. I am not necessarily talking about insane people. The people who think they are great singers and tried out for American Idol and sing atrociously, are obviously not in reality. Many people are in their own unrealities.
 
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This is going to sound a bit mad, maybe it is. I believe that all truth is in Christ. All truths, like 2+2=4, and reality.

Don't double guess yourself too much, I've lost count of the times I have expressed something that makes sense in my head at that time, but to no one else. There I think is a clue, that what I perceive as an logical explanation, should at least in theory be understood by other logical people.

We live in frightening world where people argue from their logical perspective only to to come to a very different conclusion, or it may be simply that most positions can be argued from a individual logical perspective.. which brings us back to.. what is truth ?

I understand to a believer the surety of belief in a deity can bring a peace and stability in a chaotic world, I can see how belief could be attractive and once gained a treasure, a safe haven if you will. In your case this is Christ. I have come to peace knowing that I simply don't know the truth about if there is God, at least in the monotheistic sense, nor am I tempted to believe simply for the sake of believing.

Truth I believe in this sense is purely a human construct, something that's always just beyond our grasp. and for very good reason, It might be more accurate to say Christ is reality at least for you.

Andy
 
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Freodin

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Well, you must admit, there are people who are not in reality. I am not necessarily talking about insane people. The people who think they are great singers and tried out for American Idol and sing atrociously, are obviously not in reality. Many people are in their own unrealities.
You start to understand what I am talking about. As I said in my first post: "Truth is a human abstraction".
There are people who think they are great singers, and who are not. Their thoughts - their "truth", an abstract concept about "singing" and "great" - does not conform to.. other abstractions.
But there still ARE people who think they are great singers who aren't. They are real. They are part of reality.
 
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bhsmte

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Well, you must admit, there are people who are not in reality. I am not necessarily talking about insane people. The people who think they are great singers and tried out for American Idol and sing atrociously, are obviously not in reality. Many people are in their own unrealities.
It all depends on one's individual psyche and psychological needs. Some folks have a strong need to manufacture their own reality, when well evidenced reality, is too painful to acknowledge.
 
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It all depends on one's individual psyche and psychological needs. Some folks have a strong need to manufacture their own reality, when well evidenced reality, is too painful to acknowledge.
Your point is that there is only reality. My point is reality is truth, but there is a nontruth, which would be unrealities.

I am a Christian. I believe Christ is the truth and reality. Everything outside Him is false and unrealities. There is one truth, one reality but many falsehoods and many unrealities.

Truth is exclusive. It excludes that which is false.
 
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You start to understand what I am talking about. As I said in my first post: "Truth is a human abstraction".
There are people who think they are great singers, and who are not. Their thoughts - their "truth", an abstract concept about "singing" and "great" - does not conform to.. other abstractions.
But there still ARE people who think they are great singers who aren't. They are real. They are part of reality.
Their concepts are not real, what is in their heads is false- they are in a state of unreality.
 
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bhsmte

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Your point is that there is only reality. My point is reality is truth, but there is a nontruth, which would be unrealities.

I am a Christian. I believe Christ is the truth and reality. Everything outside Him is false and unrealities. There is one truth, one reality but many falsehoods and many unrealities.

Truth is exclusive. It excludes that which is false.
And if someone declares something is true, they should be able to demonstrate this truth, objectively. If they cant, it is personal opinion.
 
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