What is the source of human conscience?

[Eloy Craft]

Although the written law had not yet been given, people instinctively knew what was morally right and wrong to do through Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit. Sin can then be said to be in the world before the law was given at Sanai.

They didn't know sin because if they did the Law wouldn't have increased sin's power.

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Rom5:13

Adam and Eve were punished for breaking God's commandment.

 

[daydreamer40]

They didn't know sin because if they did the Law wouldn't have increased sin's power.

.

I'm not quite following you.
Are you referring to Rom5:20, and or 1Cor15:56?

 

[daydreamer40]

They didn't know sin because if they did the Law wouldn't have increased sin's power.
.

BTW
Joseph knew what sin was:
No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God Genesis39:9​

 

[Eloy Craft]

I'm not quite following you.
Are you referring to Rom5:20, and or 1Cor15:56?

All the passages that Paul teaches about the purpose of the Law. Both of those Scriptures are good. Of course the Law before sin wasn't to expose the power of sin in man but to prevent it. The difference to conscience for Adam and Eve is the difference between the weight of love/fear of God compared to personal experience. Your example of Joseph in your next post is an example of love/fear of God which is wisdom.

 

[daydreamer40]

All the passages that Paul teaches about the purpose of the Law. Both of those Scriptures are good. Of course the Law before sin wasn't to expose the power of sin in man but to prevent it. The difference to conscience for Adam and Eve is the difference between the weight of love/fear of God compared to personal experience. Your example of Joseph in your next post is an example of love/fear of God which is wisdom.

If sin was said to be in the world, and people knew when they did wrong in God's sight, before the law was given, then whatever term you use for that, they knew what choosing wrong was. And Joseph referred to it as sin.
I completely agree, that once the law was given sin increased, and the power of sin is the written down law. There is a world of difference between knowing right from wrong and having a set of laws with an attached penalty for breaking them

 

[AlexDTX]

Did something good come from something bad?

Although I had responded to this before, I have been thinking further on the topic and felt I should address this further.
Your first question hints at Romans 8:28.

Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.​

However, this is not talking about disobedience. Rather it refers to our weaknesses and infirmities in the flesh. Adam and Eve were perfect and had no infirmities.

It seems that the source of human conscience, our innate ability to know right from wrong, came from the Fall of humanity in Genesis chapter three.

Was the result of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, our human conscience, that gives us the ability to know right from wrong?

The forbidden tree was of the knowledge of good and evil, not right and wrong. Biblical knowing usually refers to physical intimacy, as in "Adam knew his wife Eve". The "knowledge" was one of experience, not conscience. They (we) became evil. That experience of becoming evil made them see things from an evil point of view, of which they had not before. They were already naked but saw nothing wrong with it because they were good and pure in their creation.

Tit_1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.​

The conscience is part of our spirit, not our souls. Right and wrong is not the same thing as lawful, legal, good or evil.

1Co_10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.​

Something that is good and lawful, may be the wrong thing to do.

1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?​

Jesus was tried in a kangaroo court and crucified. He had the right to defend himself, yet he kept his mouth shut because defending himself, at that time, was the wrong thing to do since it would have foiled the plan of God for mankind's salvation.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:​

The conscience was not "birthed" by the eating of the forbidden fruit, but was "seared" and "hardened". Or, in other words, died with the human spirit as humanity became spiritually dead. It takes the new birth in Christ for our conscience to become sensitive again.

God gave us a conscience at creation.

Mat 6:8 ....for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.​

He provided our conscience before we needed a conscience.

So, Stephen, while your thinking is understandable, it is not from the Spirit but from natural reasoning. Reading the Scriptures is spiritually discerned. Many cults are based upon a natural logic, which deceives the unregenerate into thinking they are right such as Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, when they are dead, remaining spiritually dead, wrong.

 

[Saint Steven]

Although I had responded to this before, I have been thinking further on the topic and felt I should address this further.
Your first question hints at Romans 8:28.

Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.​

However, this is not talking about disobedience. Rather it refers to our weaknesses and infirmities in the flesh. Adam and Eve were perfect and had no infirmities.



The forbidden tree was of the knowledge of good and evil, not right and wrong. Biblical knowing usually refers to physical intimacy, as in "Adam knew his wife Eve". The "knowledge" was one of experience, not conscience. They (we) became evil. That experience of becoming evil made them see things from an evil point of view, of which they had not before. They were already naked but saw nothing wrong with it because they were good and pure in their creation.

Tit_1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.​

The conscience is part of our spirit, not our souls. Right and wrong is not the same thing as lawful, legal, good or evil.

1Co_10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.​

Something that is good and lawful, may be the wrong thing to do.

1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?​

Jesus was tried in a kangaroo court and crucified. He had the right to defend himself, yet he kept his mouth shut because defending himself, at that time, was the wrong thing to do since it would have foiled the plan of God for mankind's salvation.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:​

The conscience was not "birthed" by the eating of the forbidden fruit, but was "seared" and "hardened". Or, in other words, died with the human spirit as humanity became spiritually dead. It takes the new birth in Christ for our conscience to become sensitive again.

God gave us a conscience at creation.

Mat 6:8 ....for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.​

He provided our conscience before we needed a conscience.

So, Stephen, while your thinking is understandable, it is not from the Spirit but from natural reasoning. Reading the Scriptures is spiritually discerned. Many cults are based upon a natural logic, which deceives the unregenerate into thinking they are right such as Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, when they are dead, remaining spiritually dead, wrong.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.
But it looks like I have been tried and crucified in YOUR kangaroo court.
Can't we have a difference in opinion without you categorizing me as "unregenerate"?
You know, like "the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons".

So, based on what you are saying here, that we had a conscience at creation, why do you suppose that Eve (and Adam) didn't use it? Eve reasoned that the forbidden fruit was good. Sounds like a conscience malfunction to me.

 

[AlexDTX]

Thanks for your thoughtful post.
But it looks like I have been tried and crucified in YOUR kangaroo court.
Can't we have a difference in opinion without you categorizing me as "unregenerate"?
You know, like "the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons".

So, based on what you are saying here, that we had a conscience at creation, why do you suppose that Eve (and Adam) didn't use it? Eve reasoned that the forbidden fruit was good. Sounds like a conscience malfunction to me.

Forgive me if it sounded like I tried you in a kangaroo court. I am saying you are looking from a natural mind point of view, not from the Spirit.
The issue with Adam and Eve is faith. They knew what was right but Satan introduced doubt to them. The judgment of God would be unjust if they did not know what was right or wrong already. The doubt that Satan introduced appealed to their innocent souls, not their spirits. It has been preached many times that the temptation in the Garden of Eden correlates to the statements made by John.

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world,
the lust of the flesh, was good for food Gen 3:6
and the lust of the eyes, it was pleasant to the eyes Gen 3:6
and the pride of life, to be desired to make one wise, Gen 3:6
is not of the Father, but is of the world.

This is the realm of self and the soul and is reason based upon creation, not the Word of God, hence is natural and carnal. When they believed the lie of Satan, they stopped believing the Word of God. Faith without works is dead, so, even though they stopped believing God, they did not fall into sin until they acted upon it by eating the fruit. At that moment they died spiritually.

Most Christians think spiritual death means being cut off from God, which is not the case. God still spoke to them, as He did to Cain and Abel. Our souls stand between our bodies and spirits. By our souls (conscious minds) we make decisions. Before our spirits died, we made our decisions by following the leading of our spirits combined with understanding the natural circumstances. Often referred to as following your gut or instincts. Spiritual death is the inability, or diminishment of ability, to hear our spirits, which includes hearing our conscience.
Our decisions are left with only evidence of our senses in creation. But our senses do not perceive the spirit world, which is a huge part of creation, thus our decisions are based upon incomplete information.

Salvation and discipleship is about trusting both God and His Word, through our renewed spirits that through the new birth become spiritually alive. Simply being born again does not make one a disciple of Christ. There are many "baby" Christians who have had the new birth for many decades, yet still think naturally and carnally. I do not use the term "carnal" in the sense of sinning, but without knowing the leading of the Spirit. Discipleship means acting in faith trusting God and His Word, as well as, trusting your ability to sense the personal promptings of the Spirit in your own heart.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This discernment is in the spirit, with the conscience in our spirit, who by acting upon those promptings have learned through experience what the spirit of His Word truly means.

Once again, I did not mean to insult you. I apologize again. But your thinking is not spiritual.

 

[Saint Steven]

Forgive me if it sounded like I tried you in a kangaroo court. I am saying you are looking from a natural mind point of view, not from the Spirit.
The issue with Adam and Eve is faith. They knew what was right but Satan introduced doubt to them. The judgment of God would be unjust if they did not know what was right or wrong already. The doubt that Satan introduced appealed to their innocent souls, not their spirits. It has been preached many times that the temptation in the Garden of Eden correlates to the statements made by John.

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world,
the lust of the flesh, was good for food Gen 3:6
and the lust of the eyes, it was pleasant to the eyes Gen 3:6
and the pride of life, to be desired to make one wise, Gen 3:6
is not of the Father, but is of the world.

This is the realm of self and the soul and is reason based upon creation, not the Word of God, hence is natural and carnal. When they believed the lie of Satan, they stopped believing the Word of God. Faith without works is dead, so, even though they stopped believing God, they did not fall into sin until they acted upon it by eating the fruit. At that moment they died spiritually.

Most Christians think spiritual death means being cut off from God, which is not the case. God still spoke to them, as He did to Cain and Abel. Our souls stand between our bodies and spirits. By our souls (conscious minds) we make decisions. Before our spirits died, we made our decisions by following the leading of our spirits combined with understanding the natural circumstances. Often referred to as following your gut or instincts. Spiritual death is the inability, or diminishment of ability, to hear our spirits, which includes hearing our conscience.
Our decisions are left with only evidence of our senses in creation. But our senses do not perceive the spirit world, which is a huge part of creation, thus our decisions are based upon incomplete information.

Salvation and discipleship is about trusting both God and His Word, through our renewed spirits that through the new birth become spiritually alive. Simply being born again does not make one a disciple of Christ. There are many "baby" Christians who have had the new birth for many decades, yet still think naturally and carnally. I do not use the term "carnal" in the sense of sinning, but without knowing the leading of the Spirit. Discipleship means acting in faith trusting God and His Word, as well as, trusting your ability to sense the personal promptings of the Spirit in your own heart.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This discernment is in the spirit, with the conscience in our spirit, who by acting upon those promptings have learned through experience what the spirit of His Word truly means.

Once again, I did not mean to insult you. I apologize again. But your thinking is not spiritual.

Apology accepted. Thanks.
At the risk of going around in circles (I may have already asked you this) from your perspective, what purpose is served by having a forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden?

As a side note, it seems to me that "good and evil" and "right and wrong" are indeed the same thing. I was using one to define the other earlier. Which you apparently objected to. Your points were good as well. Right is not always good, and wrong is not always evil.

 

[AlexDTX]

Apology accepted. Thanks.
At the risk of going around in circles (I may have already asked you this) from your perspective, what purpose is served by having a forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden?

As a side note, it seems to me that "good and evil" and "right and wrong" are indeed the same thing. I was using one to define the other earlier. Which you apparently objected to. Your points were good as well. Right is not always good, and wrong is not always evil.

Of course you are asking what was in the mind of God for planting such a tree in the first place. Speaking strictly as my opinion, I believe Adam and Eve had to be road tested, just as a car manufacturer runs a series of tests on new cars before putting them on the market. We know Adam was already tested one time by God before the creation of Eve.

What I am sharing next is something the Lord showed me at a marriage seminar when I was a Bible student at Christ for the Nations. He dropped this into my spirit to help me understand why I failed to get married with my past attempts.

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.​

We see it is God's clear intention to create a mate for Adam. Yet, in what seems to be a non sequiter, God shows Adam the beasts of the field and he names them.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.​

But we see at the end of verse 20, after naming the animals, the narrative says no suitable help was found for him. The natural interpretation is that God gave Adam a job in naming the animals, but that is not what was going on. God was testing Adam to see if he was able to see in the spirit. When he looked upon an animal, he did not name the animal, but spoke the same word God used to create the animal. "...whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." Meaning he correctly spoke the same word, not that he made up the names.

In my case, the Lord was showing me that I was too shallow in my view of women. I saw them either as sex objects, or partners in business, but not as my soul mate. Eve was not going to look like Adam, he had to see past the physical and into her soul and spirit. God had tested Adam's spiritual discernment and he passed the test.

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.​

Even though she had a different appearance, Adam realized that she was his soul mate because she was the same in the spirit and soul as he was. And, by the way, I passed my test when the Lord brought me my spouse who has now been my wife for the last 26 years. When I met her I immediately thought, bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.

This was Adam's first test. His second test was prepared before his first test. In the previous verses we read:

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

This was told to Adam before Eve was created. Adam knew directly from the Word of God that he was forbidden to eat from that tree, and the consequence of death was told to him. Now, all Adam had seen was life, so how can we expect him to understand what death was? Because he knew it in the spirit. He did not need to experience death to know what it was. The tree was used to test his ability to guard and protect his new found wife, which we all know he failed to do.

Why would a loving Father with a brand new son introduce evil to him? Specifically why make the tree in the first place and let Satan in the garden in the second place? This is my opinion that I referred to in the beginning of my reply.

As for the tree, I think God fully intended for Adam and Eve to eat from that tree, after they had passed the test and had eaten from the tree of life, which I stated in my earlier replies, would permanently seal them in perfection, preventing them from becoming evil. Then the tree of knowledge would have shown them the depths of evil without participating in that evil. It would serve as a deterrent to any future chance to fall at all.

Do you know that the Lake of Fire will be visible to all the redeemed? Consider the end of the book of Isaiah.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. ​

This is the very last statement in the book of Isaiah. Sounds like Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) to me. Why should we go to worship God in the new heaven and new earth and pass and see the tormented in the Lake of Fire? As a reminder and deterrent.

Why was Satan allowed in the Garden of Eden? Andrew Wommack has this answer. He believes Lucifer was not evil at that time. He believes that when Lucifer saw the love that God had for his first created son, envy came into his heart and at that moment he became evil. Consider what Ezekiel has to say. While in the context he is addressing the King of Tyrus, it is traditionally understood that God is speaking about Lucifer, not the earthly king, since that earthly king was never in the Garden of Eden.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. ​

We see he is still in his perfection as an angel.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.​

The human king had not been in Eden, for sure.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.​

When was the iniquity found in Lucifer? By sequence of verses, it was after he went into the Garden of Eden. So, Wommack's opinion has merit. Of course, Ezekiel further tells us that pride preceded his envy.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:​

But clearly, God in his omniscience, knew when Lucifer would change, and, like Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted, or tested in his spiritual understand of the Word of God, so, too was Adam. Notice in Christ's test, Satan used Scripture to test Jesus, but Jesus knew the Spirit of the Word and refuted Satan with the correct understanding. His conscience was pure and undefiled.