Sin is not counted where there is no LAW

[tonychanyt]

Rom 2:

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Paul expounded on the natural law of the conscience. Three chapter later, Rom 5:

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mene because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given,

i.e., Mosaic Law

but sin is not counted where there is no law.

i.e., natural moral law that is inherent in human conscience

14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Cain did not need any legal code to tell him that killing his brother was wrong. He knew it in his conscience intrinsically. He sinned against his conscience. Sin was counted even though there was no systematic written law.

 

[Soyeong]

Sin is what is contrary to God's nature and sin is the transgression of God's law because it divides between what is in accordance with or contrary to God's nature. Sin was in the world before God's law was given because people were able to act in a way that was contrary God's nature before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that, but sin is not counted where there is no law because people were didn't know that what they were doing was sinful. In Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and that he must master it, which implies that he already knew what sin is because he had been given a legal code. Romans 5 says nothing about a natural moral law that is inherent to human conscience and Genesis says nothing about Cain sinning against his conscience.

 

[tonychanyt]

Sin was in the world before God's law was given

Define God's law.

 

[Soyeong]

Define God's law.

The instructions that God has given, which divide between what is in accordance with or contrary to His nature.

 

[oikonomia]

The instructions that God has given, which divide between what is in accordance with or contrary to His nature.

So you are saying "until the law" never happened?
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13)

So are you saying "the law entered" never because it was always in?
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; (Rom. 5:20a)

 

[Soyeong]

So you are saying "until the law" never happened?
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13)

Sin is was in the world before the law was given because people were able to act in a way that was contrary to God's nature before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that. Moreover, the fact that sin was in the world before the law was given means that there were no actions that became sinful when it was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be contrary to God's eternal nature.

So are you saying "the law entered" never because it was always in?
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; (Rom. 5:20a)

In Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so the law of sin is sinful and causes sin to increase. So Romans 5:20 is referring to the law of sin, not to the Law of God.

 

[oikonomia]

Sin is was in the world before the law was given because people were able to act in a way that was contrary to God's nature before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that. Moreover, the fact that sin was in the world before the law was given means that there were no actions that became sinful when it was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be contrary to God's eternal nature.

Sin as a nature was in the world even until the law was given.
I think that is what Paul is saying.
The nature of sin was in the world from Adam's transgression.

So Romans 5:20 is referring to the law of sin, not to the Law of God.

No, Romans 5:20 is saying that the Law of God entered.

Sin with its law - the law of sin and death, was there from Adam's fall.
So the law of sin or sin as an innate nature was exposed by the latter entering in of the Law of God.

Romans 5:20 is definitely speaking of the entering in of the Law of God.

 

[Soyeong]

Sin as a nature was in the world even until the law was given.
I think that is what Paul is saying.
The nature of sin was in the world from Adam's transgression.

The existence of sin requires there to be something that defines what is and is not sin, which has been r revealed through God's law.

No, Romans 5:20 is saying that the Law of God entered.

Sin with its law - the law of sin and death, was there from Adam's fall.
So the law of sin or sin as an innate nature was exposed by the latter entering in of the Law of God.

Romans 5:20 is definitely speaking of the entering in of the Law of God.

The please explain what it is that intrinsic to the command to love our neighbor as ourselves that causes sin to increase. In Romans 5-7, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, the he delighted in obeying it, and that he served with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to the good that he wanted to, which held him captive, which was waging war against the law of his mind, and he served with his flesh. The is nothing intrinsic to God's law that causes sin to increase, but rather the issue is that there is something within us that is reacting to God's law that is causing sin to increase.

 

[oikonomia]

The existence of sin requires there to be something that defines what is and is not sin, which has been r revealed through God's law.

Paul does not say the Law is needed for its existence. He says the Law is needed for its exposure and man's accountability.
Romans 5:13 says that sin was in the world. So before the law came it surely existed.
The issue is on the road to salvation from sin the accountability needed to be established.

For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13)

The please explain what it is that intrinsic to the command to love our neighbor as ourselves that causes sin to increase.

I am not sure I understand the question. But either we believe "sin [a nature] was in the world" or we do not.
Man could observe that something terrible was going wrong with the spread of hate, murder, and not caring for one another.

Before the law was given through Moses sin as a nature was in the world and men in their God created conscience
could plainly see something was wrong. Of course Cain suppressed his conscience, lying to God that he didn't know
where his brother was whom he had just murdered out of hate. And he disowned any responsibility to know.

Then Jehovah said to Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?
And He said, What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying out to Me from the ground. (Gen. 4:9,10)

Sin as a nature was already working. And some men chose to reject the awareness of the wrongdoing in thier conscience.
The road to salvation is on. The giving of the law was a further step towards salvation. The law came through Moses.
For the law was given through Moses; (John 1:17a)

In Romans 5-7, Paul said that the Law of God is good,

You know we have no argument against the law being good.
So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

that he wanted to do good, the he delighted in obeying it, and that he served with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to the good that he wanted to, which held him captive, which was waging war against the law of his mind, and he served with his flesh.

Since the last time we talked I may detect some enightenment. If not excuse me.
But the above paragraph seem exceptionally clear this time.

The is nothing intrinsic to God's law that causes sin to increase, but rather the issue is that there is something within us that is reacting to God's law that is causing sin to increase.

So?
You sound as an apologist for the law of Moses.
Is there a need to be an apologest for the law of God given through Moses?

There is something called "grace" which in contrast came when Jesus Christ came.

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:16,17)

And grace is more than just "unmerited favor" though it be that as well.
Grace and reality (or truth) is not only God's power over man but the power of His life within man.
It is that grace that Paul said he did not nullify but let it do its complete work of Christ living in him.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul does not say the Law is needed for its existence. He says the Law is needed for its exposure and man's accountability.
Romans 5:13 says that sin was in the world. So before the law came it surely existed.
The issue is on the road to salvation from sin the accountability needed to be established.

It is illogical for sin to exist prior to something that defines what sin is, so God’s law has existed for as long as sin has existed, but God’s law has not always been given to man, so man has not always been accountable to obey it. For example, God’s righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so there has always existed a way to know Him through acting in accordance with His righteousness and a way to sin by acting contrary to His righteousness, so all of God’s righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160).

I am not sure I understand the question. But either we believe "sin [a nature] was in the world" or we do not.

You insisted that Romans 5:20 is referring to the Law of God rather than the law of sin, so you should be able to explain what it is that is intrinsic to the Law of God that causes sin to increase, such as in the case of a the command to love our neighbor as ourselves.

You know we have no argument against the law being good.
So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

The law that causes sin to increase is not the law that is holy, righteous, and good, so by insisting that Romans 5:20 is referring to the Law of God, you are arguing against it being holy, righteous, and good. Likewise, the law that causes sin to increase is sinful, but Romans 7:7 says that the Law of God is not sinful. In Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, so it would be absurd to interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in causing sin to increase.

Since the last time we talked I may detect some enightenment. If not excuse me.
But the above paragraph seem exceptionally clear this time.

Thank you.

So?
You sound as an apologist for the law of Moses.
Is there a need to be an apologest for the law of God given through Moses?

So you are incorrect to interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to the Law of God rather than the law of sin. There is the need to be an apologist when you malign it by saying that it causes sin to increase rather than decrease.

There is something called "grace" which in contrast came when Jesus Christ came.

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:16,17)

And grace is more than just "unmerited favor" though it be that as well.
Grace and reality (or truth) is not only God's power over man but the power of His life within man.
It is that grace that Paul said he did not nullify but let it do its complete work of Christ living in him.

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Psalms 119:142, the God’s law is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey it by word and by example.

 

[oikonomia]

It is illogical for sin to exist prior to something that defines what sin is,

Then take your marker and change the Scripture to say what YOU want it to say.
Like this - For until the law sin was [ NOT ] in the world, (Rom. 5:13a)

You insisted that Romans 5:20 is referring to the Law of God rather than the law of sin, so you should be able to explain what it is that is intrinsic to the Law of God that causes sin to increase.

Again, if you don't like what the Scripture teaches get out your pen and make it say what you want it to say.
Like this - And the law [DID NOT] entered in alongside that the offense might abound [BUT WAS ALREADY THERE] ; (Rom. 5:20a)

You go and make the Bible say whatever YOU want it to say.
Take it up with the Lord Himself at the judgment seat of Christ.

The law that causes sin to increase is not the law that is holy,

Yes, the Law of Moses caused the offense to abound.
Causes to increase [abound] is not cause to come into existence,
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom. 5:20)

But if you think Paul should have written under YOUR "inspiration" -
And the law entered in alongside that [SIN] might [EXIST] . . .
you change it to say what YOU want it to say.

And by the way, Paul wrote that the law entered "along side".
If sin did not exist there was not "along side" of it for the law to enter.

So you are incorrect to interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to the Law of God rather than the law of sin. There is the need to be an apologist when you malign it by saying that it causes sin to increase rather than decrease.

I didn't malign the law. And now I have to be bit rude and say stop lying.
I QUOTED the word of God above in post #9.
So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

So I don't appreciate your lying slander that I maligned the law of God.
Furthermore I would highlight that Paul used the word "IS" and not "WAS".

So then the law IS holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

So if you want to talk with me then put away the strawmen you desire to argue with.
Deal with what I wrote and not with what you WISH I wrote.

 

[oikonomia]

Paul writes that he did not know sin [as a nature] except the commandment came.
He did not say sin as a nature did not exist but only the law exposed it to him.
This exposing made him more accountable for seeing the need to be freed from its nature.

What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.” (Rom. 7:7)

 

[Soyeong]

Then take your marker and change the Scripture to say what YOU want it to say.
Like this - For until the law sin was [ NOT ] in the world, (Rom. 5:13a)

No, I am not changing it to what I want it to say, but rather I am speaking against interpreting it in an illogical manner. You notably neglected to explain how your interpretation isn't illogical. Sin is the transgression of God's law, so how can sin exist without the existence of the law that it is a transgression of? You can't give an example of something that was sin without the law because the moment you say that something like adultery was a sin, you are defining what sin is, which is God's law. In Romans 5:13, it says that sin was in the world before the law was given, which means that God's law existed before it was given.

Again, if you don't like what the Scripture teaches get out your pen and make it say what you want it to say.
Like this - And the law [DID NOT] entered in alongside that the offense might abound [BUT WAS ALREADY THERE] ; (Rom. 5:20a)

You go and make the Bible say whatever YOU want it to say.
Take it up with the Lord Himself at the judgment seat of Christ.

Again, I did not try to make changes teaches, but spoke in regard to which law we should interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to. In Romans 7:25, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, so it should at least be worth considering which of the two it would make more sense to interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to rather than just assume he was referring the Mosaic Law. You notably neglecting explain what it is that is intrinsic to God's law that causes sin to increase.

Yes, the Law of Moses caused the offense to abound.
Causes to increase [abound] is not cause to come into existence,
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom. 5:20)

But if you think Paul should have written under YOUR "inspiration" -
And the law entered in alongside that [SIN] might [EXIST] . . .
you change it to say what YOU want it to say.

And by the way, Paul wrote that the law entered "along side".
If sin did not exist there was not "along side" of it for the law to enter.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Paul is making a distinction between serving the law of sin that leads to death or serving the Law of God, which leads to righteousness, these laws are leading in opposite directions, so you should be more careful not to mistake what was said about seeing sin as being said about serving the Law of God. I again said nothing to suggest that Paul should have written something different. You are unjustifiably insisting that Romans 5:20 refers to the Law of Moses while neglecting to address the major problems with that interpretation.

I didn't malign the law. And now I have to be bit rude and say stop lying.
I QUOTED the word of God above in post #9.
So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

So I don't appreciate your lying slander that I maligned the law of God.
Furthermore I would highlight that Paul used the word "IS" and not "WAS".

So then the law IS holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

So if you want to talk with me then put away the strawmen you desire to argue with.
Deal with what I wrote and not with what you WISH I wrote.

The position that the Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good, is also the position that it leads us away from sin, the position that the Law of God leads us to sin is also the position that it leads us away from doing what is holy, righteous, and good, and the position that the Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, good, and sinful is contradictory. It is not slander to say that you can't have both ways. If you take the position that the Law of God leads us to do what holy, righteous, and good as you claim, then you are denying that it leads us to sin, but if you take the position that the Law of God leads us to sin as you claim, then you are denying that it is holy, righteous, and good.

 

[oikonomia]

No, I am not changing it to what I want it to say, but rather I am speaking against interpreting it in an illogical manner.

The word of God is the logic -
For until the law sin was in the world, (Rom. 5:13a)

You notably neglected to explain how your interpretation isn't illogical.

According to God's word For until the law sin was in the world,

Sin is the transgression of God's law,

You can be selective and pick your favorite definition. But it is not the only explanation of the nature of sin.

Sin is most extensively diagnosed imo and explained in Romans 7. Sin is virtually Satan in man's fallen body. And that was in the world from Adam's fall. For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13)

What First John 3:4 actually says is Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.(1 John 3:4)
It is helpful to know that.

It is also helpful to know - for all that is not out of faith is sin. (Rom. 14:23b)

There are many passages helping man to know what sinning is, what sins are, and what sin as a nature is, and who is a sinner.
Both in Old and New Testament - many verses to help us to know the matter.

And there are many more passages showing us the way of victory through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.
In Christ as "a life giving Spirit" alone is victory over this sin nature.

so how can sin exist without the existence of the law that it is a transgression of?

These I count as more your philosophical musings. However it is written -
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13)

Question: Did SIN exist in the world before the law was given?
Answer: Yes, according to Romans 5:13.

Actually, Paul certainly had the Hebrew Bible opened before him and wrote in accordance with Genesis 4:7
. . . sin is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him. (Gen. 4:7b)

In Romans 5:13, it says that sin was in the world before the law was given, which means that God's law existed before it was given.

Then there was no need for God to GIVE the law ?
What Paul said was that SIN as a nature was not accounted to man until the law, encreasing the accountability and the realization
of the need of God's life. but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13b)

Of course God Himself is from eternity. And His divine life and holy nature and the law of His life is as long as He is.
Indeed from eternity to eternity, You are God. (Psa. 90:2b)

Again, I did not try to make changes teaches, but spoke in regard to which law we should interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to. In Romans 7:25, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, so it should at least be worth considering which of the two it would make more sense to interpret Romans 5:20 as referring to rather than just assume he was referring the Mosaic Law. You notably neglecting explain what it is that is intrinsic to God's law that causes sin to increase.

We do not have to assume. We have to interpret well. And Romans 5:20 refers to the law of God.
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound;

It is not sin entered in alongside of the law but the other way around.
First sin as a nature was in the would, entering with death from Adam's disobedience.
Sin was in the world until the law of God entered in along side.

But the positive side we should not overlook. So consider more of the passage.

For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded,
In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gradually God unfolds His eternal purpose of imparting into man His life - grace.
Grace is God being for us everything we need. And grace now superabounds if we learn to walk in it.

much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (v.17b)

Man needs "the abundance of grace". That is Christ's work outside of us but also much more within us, joined to us, blended with us "organically." Then we can reign in life. Then we can know the justification of life (v.18)

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Yes. I well know.

Paul is making a distinction between serving the law of sin that leads to death or serving the Law of God,

In Romans 6 Paul is teaching that the DEATH . . . the DEATH of Christ is something we can and must apply to our old man.
Latter he elaborates how this can be done in Romans chapter 8. But in chapter 6 it is the DEATH of Jesus which can and must work
for us to terminate, bury, and cross out the old independent self centered adamic man we inherited from Adam.

We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it? Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6:2b,3)

We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life. (v.4)

Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves; For he who has died is justified from sin. (vs. 6,7)

The apostle does not want us to be ignorant. The DEATH of Christ is applicable, able to be put to work, able to terminate and bury the former
way of life. We have to stand upon this in faith and in praise that in Christ we also DIED and were BURIED with Him.

Everything Christ is and did is for our application, enjoyment, and co-partaking of. Christ has to be our history, our legacy, our entire past,
and all the future we have and will ever have. Even His death is there for us to apply as well as His living in resurrection.

So in the New Testament we have:
Justification through His blood, (Rom. 5:9)
Justification by Faith, (Rom. 5:1)
Justification in His life (Rom. 5:18)
Justification through His death (Rom. 6:7)

For he who has died is justified from sin. (Rom. 6:7)

You are unjustifiably insisting that Romans 5:20 refers to the Law of Moses while neglecting to address the major problems with that interpretation.

No that is not what is happening. What is happening is your desire to exalt the law of God above the Son of God.
Have you come to Christ? Have you been distracted from your first love? Have you made an idol of something other than Christ?

Sometimes Christians loose their first love which exalts Jesus to have the first place in everything.
As the Lord Jesus told the church in Ephesus. They had many good things. But they had left their first and best love of Jesus Himself.
And He knew it even if they did not realize it.

I know your works and your labor and your endurance and that you cannot bear evil men; and you have tried those who call themselves apostles and are not, and have found them to be false;
And you have endurance and have borne all things because of My name and have not grown weary.

But I have one thing against you, that you have left your first love. (Rev. 2:2-4)

The position that the Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good,

The Law leads us to faith. And faith is for Christ as grace living in us to be everything we need.
So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith. (Gal. 3;24)

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:16,17)

When we wake in the morning it is so good to say first "Lord Jesus, I love You. Lord Jesus I died with you and am raised with You.
Lord Jesus thankyou for living in me to be my life."

is also the position that it leads us away from sin, the position that the Law of God leads us to sin

The law of God EXPOSING sin in us working against God's law is not "the Law of God leads us to sin."

We need a stronger Person with a stronger nature to be imparted into our being.
This Person is the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead, the Spirit of God, and Christ Himself.

With His life there is the law of His life. This is so reliable it is like a scientific law. It simply works for us to free us from the
law of sin and death in the flesh.

There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:1,2)

But you are not in the [human fallen] flesh, but in the [human regenerated] spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the [human regenerated] spirit is life because of righteousness.

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.

So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh;
For if you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Rom. 8:9-14)

 

[oikonomia]

 

[oikonomia]