What is the source of human conscience?

fhansen

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That's why this is such a curious thing, to me anyway.

There is a strong point made in Genesis chapter two that our knowledge of good and evil (our conscience) was a result of the Fall (eating the forbidden fruit). Since a conscience is good, but the Fall was bad, how can this be? Something good from something bad.
Consider this idea: the Fall opened the door to moral relativism. It made man, rather than God, the sovereign ruler over his own conscience. From then on each man did what was right in his own eyes, and not necessarily according to the "natural law" that was written in his heart. God would later begin to remedy this situation, first by "publicly" revealing the Law to man, the Law that was supposed to reflect that which had already been infused inside. Augustine put it this way: "God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."
 
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Tayla

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Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. …
I doubt the essential attribute of God here is his knowing good and evil. Man became like God by exercising his free will, but in man's case it resulted in something bad, because man is limited within the spiritual realm. God doesn't know good and evil the way humans do.
 
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Saint Steven

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Con=with science= knowledge- conscience=with knowledge. What is with knowledge? Acts. act with knowledge. =conscience. Our conscience was good and perfect when it =act with knowledge of God. We are created with a conscience. Act with knowledge of satan equals acts wi9th knowledge of evil. Evil becomes good and good becomes evil.
The Bible seems to indicate that the knowledge of good and evil was a result of the Fall. Not sure how we can get around that. At this point it is innate, but due to the Fall not due to how we were created originally. (before the Fall)
 
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Saint Steven

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Consider this idea: the Fall opened the door to moral relativism. It made man, rather than God, the sovereign ruler over his own conscience. From then on each man did what was right in his own eyes, and not necessarily according to the "natural law" that was written in his heart. God would later begin to remedy this situation, first by "publicly" revealing the Law to man, the Law that was supposed to reflect that which had already been infused inside. Augustine put it this way: "God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."
That's an interesting thought. And brings even more conundrums into play. But may actually bring us full circle.

From the Fall we gained the knowledge of good and evil (a conscience) which is actually a godlike quality. By the Flood (Noah) humankind had gone so far away from it that a reset was needed. After that God codified what was written on our conscience (heart) with the law given to the Israelites through Moses. The old covenant.

Ironically, this old covenant was replaced by the new convenient (the faith of Abraham) and that original covenant is now written on our hearts. Full circle?
 
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Saint Steven

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I doubt the essential attribute of God here is his knowing good and evil. Man became like God by exercising his free will, but in man's case it resulted in something bad, because man is limited within the spiritual realm. God doesn't know good and evil the way humans do.

Perhaps conscience is not the same thing as knowledge of good and evil. Perhaps knowledge of good and evil has to do with our soul/spirit being plagued by the dark side.
I added your quote from the previous post to the bottom of this one. We need to consider all this at once.

Does God have a conscience? It seems so. But you are right. There is something else at play here.

Along with the knowledge of good and evil that came with the Fall, something else significant happened. I outlined this earlier, but it needs to be re-introduced here.

My point about God's unanswered question comes into the picture here. The question was: "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed.

As I said earlier, A&E literally lost their minds at this point. At the end of Genesis chapter two they "... were both naked, and they felt no shame."

They eat the forbidden fruit and suddenly they are scurrying around like crazy people. Clearly out of their minds. "... they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."

Being naked had never been a problem before. All of a sudden a "cover-up" was in order. Who ordered this behavior. God knew exactly what had happened. God new that someone had TOLD THEM that they were naked. A blaming ploy to shame them for their sinfulness. Even though it was not a sin for them to be naked.

All this to say that there is something more in our minds than the knowledge of good and evil. There is also the temptation to do evil. The tempter has taken up residence in the human mind. It came with the conscience, but operates separately from it.

James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
 
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The question was: "Who told you that you were naked?"
God new that someone had TOLD THEM that they were naked.
God did not tell them they were naked nor that they were in some way sinning by being naked. The source of the problem at the fall is that humans are now hearing and believing the powers of darkness, it has interpenetrated their soul/spirit because they let it in, they were enticed by it.
 
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Saint Steven

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God did not tell them they were naked nor that they were in some way sinning by being naked. The source of the problem at the fall is that humans are now hearing and believing the powers of darkness, it has interpenetrated their soul/spirit because they let it in, they were enticed by it.
Exactly!
The tempter, the enemy of our soul, that ancient serpent, the devil, Satan. He was the one who told them they were naked. And he has been lying to us ever since. That's why we must…

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A&E were very intelligent. Adam named all the animals as God brought them by. No computers, no writing it down, as far as we know. And whatever he called them, that was their name.

But I don't think they had any idea what the consequences really were to their contemplated act. (disobeying God) What did, you shall surely die mean to them? And all the other unspecified consequences. And not just for them, for all of us.
 
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Kaon

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That's an interesting idea.
I suppose "Eve" could have been banished from the garden, and God could have created another. Kind of strange, but a possibility. The name "Eve" would have to be given to "the mother of all the living".

Genesis 3:20
Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Adam and Eve procreated after they fell, so her title is consequential when taken in context. If Adam had procreated with a life-giver in perfection (with a living spirit), then that woman would be the mother of living. Rightfully so, because carnal man is not alive; s/he is dead.

BTW, I don't subscribe to the "raiment of light" theory. (glowing robes) At the end of Genesis chapter two we read: Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. - vs 25

They weren't ashamed because they were clothed by light - recall the transfiguration, and what the Most High God told the saints that cried out, "How long, O Lord..." Perfection in body radiates white light as "waste" instead of carnal bodies, which radiate infrared radiation as waste. There is a lot of other detail that would downright found the "raiment of light 'theory.'"

Furthermore, God indicates that they were told they were naked when he asked: “Who told you that you were naked? - Gen.3:11

When they said they were naked, it was not as if they were children realizing their parts for the first time. They were shamed because they had no clothes (of light.) It is important to realize Adam and Eve were not dumb; in fact, they were erudite and learned in mathematics and astronomy, horticulture and masonry. They knew under their light they were exposed, and when they sinned their spirit died, that light got snuffed out, and they became carnal - able to judge their shame because of their sin, and the consequences.

"Who told you you were naked" is what a parent tells a kid who complains about a consequence of an action they weren't supposed to do. In other words, "How would you know if you were naked if 1) your raiment didn't fall, and 2) you didn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil such that you could judge nakedness? Unless, you were doing something you weren't supposed to do..."

He knows what happened, and they knew they were naked underneath their raiment; He is convicting them. That is why the Word of God made the first sin sacrifice for them, and killed animals as clothes for Adam and Eve. No longer was light their clothes; they needed the carcass of other innocent living creatures to hide their shame.
 
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Saint Steven

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Adam and Eve procreated after they fell, so her title is consequential when taken in context. If Adam had procreated with a life-giver in perfection (with a living spirit), then that woman would be the mother of living. Rightfully so, because carnal man is not alive; s/he is dead.



They weren't ashamed because they were clothed by light - recall the transfiguration, and what the Most High God told the saints that cried out, "How long, O Lord..." Perfection in body radiates white light as "waste" instead of carnal bodies, which radiate infrared radiation as waste. There is a lot of other detail that would downright found the "raiment of light 'theory.'"



When they said they were naked, it was not as if they were children realizing their parts for the first time. They were shamed because they had no clothes (of light.) It is important to realize Adam and Eve were not dumb; in fact, they were erudite and learned in mathematics and astronomy, horticulture and masonry. They knew under their light they were exposed, and when they sinned their spirit died, that light got snuffed out, and they became carnal - able to judge their shame because of their sin, and the consequences.

"Who told you you were naked" is what a parent tells a kid who complains about a consequence of an action they weren't supposed to do. In other words, "How would you know if you were naked if 1) your raiment didn't fall, and 2) you didn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil such that you could judge nakedness? Unless, you were doing something you weren't supposed to do..."

He knows what happened, and they knew they were naked underneath their raiment; He is convicting them. That is why the Word of God made the first sin sacrifice for them, and killed animals as clothes for Adam and Eve. No longer was light their clothes; they needed the carcass of other innocent living creatures to hide their shame.
Thanks for your detailed reply, but there seems to be a lot of extra-biblical and even biblically-conflicting information given. Reminds me of SDAism or LDS' doctrine. So, I'll have to say I find little to agree with.
 
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bling

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If their eyes were not opened to the knowledge of good and evil until after they ate then what you have is simple acts of obedience....but the free will to disobey is present but not activated so to speak until the serpent lied to them.
We always like to blame satan instead of taking full responsibility.
Eve wanted to hear what satan told her, she did not seek out council after the serpent lied to her.
The serpent lied but she had lots of reason to trust God over a snake.
Again, God is holding Adam and Eve to a right and wrong status and they did not have to become "evil" in their actions, just disobedient.
 
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bling

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If you put a nice new toy in the middle of the play room and told your kids they could play with any toy in the room but that one, would that seem like a set-up? (for failure)
Adam and Eve are not little immature adults or God would be at fault.
You bring up a good point. People will ask: "How do I keep from sinning?" when there is a ton of good stuff they could be doing all around them and only one sin on their mind at the time. The idea would be to fill you life with all the good you could be doing and you do not have time to do the bad stuff.
Yes, Adam and Eve were going to sin and God is providing the way for them to sin, the same as all mature adults on earth will sin and this earth is set up to allow that to happen.
So is it God's fault (like it would be for the parent you described) Adam and Eve sinned since He could have made the fruit ugly and smelly, really hard to get to and guarded by angles.
Sin is not the problem and is part of what is needed for mature adults to fulfill their earthly objective, which Adam and Eve (and all the rest of us) were shown could not happen in a Garden type situation.
 
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Saint Steven

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Adam and Eve are not little immature adults or God would be at fault.
You bring up a good point. People will ask: "How do I keep from sinning?" when there is a ton of good stuff they could be doing all around them and only one sin on their mind at the time. The idea would be to fill you life with all the good you could be doing and you do not have time to do the bad stuff.
Yes, Adam and Eve were going to sin and God is providing the way for them to sin, the same as all mature adults on earth will sin and this earth is set up to allow that to happen.
So is it God's fault (like it would be for the parent you described) Adam and Eve sinned since He could have made the fruit ugly and smelly, really hard to get to and guarded by angles.
Sin is not the problem and is part of what is needed for mature adults to fulfill their earthly objective, which Adam and Eve (and all the rest of us) were shown could not happen in a Garden type situation.
Thanks.
It think God loves a good story. It seems to be his motive in our lives. Which explains all the drama.

Revelation 12:11
They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
 
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fhansen

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Thanks.
It think God loves a good story. It seems to be his motive in our lives. Which explains all the drama.

Revelation 12:11
They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
I think He's drawing/coaxing us to increasingly do better, in choosing good over evil, life over death, light over darkness, God over no God. The drama of this life, with its pain, suffering, sin, and evil alongside of its beauty and goodness is "designed" in a way to help us do just that, to make the right choice, with the help of grace, to decide between those options. It's a struggle, and a good one.

And that's why, IMO, we need to understand that the struggle is never over. We must strive in this life; we must grow/improve in our justice or righteousness. And staying neutral or thinking we play no role in it all doesn't cut it. God wants us to keep moving, with His help. I think the Parable of the Talents describes this whole dynamic quite well.

Either way the drama has a purpose.
 
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fhansen

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That's an interesting thought. And brings even more conundrums into play. But may actually bring us full circle.

From the Fall we gained the knowledge of good and evil (a conscience) which is actually a godlike quality. By the Flood (Noah) humankind had gone so far away from it that a reset was needed. After that God codified what was written on our conscience (heart) with the law given to the Israelites through Moses. The old covenant.

Ironically, this old covenant was replaced by the new convenient (the faith of Abraham) and that original covenant is now written on our hearts. Full circle?
I think the whole history of humanity since Eden has one goal in mind, that man must come to authentically, individually, recognize his need for God, 'apart from whom man can do nothing' to paraphrase John 15:5. And the first way that we begin to realize this is when we try to be "right" but fail. In fact, "right" is a moving target without God, man just doing what's "right" in his own eyes. So next God lays down the Law, so to speak, with His Old Covenant, to show us what "right" is, what it should truly look like, and then, lo and behold, we still fail, even as it takes centuries for us to finally begin to realize this from the larger perspective. We ultimately find out that the Law is just a teacher, showing us what's right but failing to produce righteousness in us, showing us, in fact, that we're wrong as it reveals and convicts us of sinfulness.

So finally God sends His Son to establish a New Covenant. This is all part of His step by step plan. With the NC we come to realize that we simply cannot be righteous on our own, apart from God, that we must acknowledge our sinfulness and the destruction it causes and of our abject inability to overcome it in any lasting and meaningful way. Then the offer of forgiveness and reconciliation and the communion with Him that is the most essential ingredient of this new covenant begins to make sense and appeal to us. Man was made for communion with God. This is the relationship that Adam spurned, going his own way, being his own god, not heeding God but rather his own momentary desires instead. He didn't trust the conscience God had given him, which corroborated the Word that God spoke to him. He didn't trust God. Here in this world we daily experience the repercussions of this mistrust, of his choice.
 
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Halbhh

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Did something good come from something bad?

It seems that the source of human conscience, our innate ability to know right from wrong, came from the Fall of humanity in Genesis chapter three.

Was the result of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, our human conscience, that gives us the ability to know right from wrong?

Is our ability to know right from wrong the result of sinful disobedience to God?

I've been puzzling about this. Any ideas?

--- EDIT ---

Here's the scripture that makes me puzzle about this.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

The scripture you quote in the edit explains that now our conscience has been improved, by His plan accomplished, the law of righteousness written in our hearts.

So now we have two competing forces (not just one) in us -- that of the flesh and that of the spirit.
 
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Okay, thanks.
Here's a question: Why do you think it was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
They in effect ursurped God's authority as the one fit to Judge. Wrongly assuming the power to judge for themselves what is right-best- most good for ourselves ...

When we seek to be the one saying what is best in a way ignoring His teaching, that's just like the fall, not trusting God.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Did something good come from something bad?

It seems that the source of human conscience, our innate ability to know right from wrong, came from the Fall of humanity in Genesis chapter three.

Was the result of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, our human conscience, that gives us the ability to know right from wrong?

Is our ability to know right from wrong the result of sinful disobedience to God?

I've been puzzling about this. Any ideas?

--- EDIT ---

Here's the scripture that makes me puzzle about this.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Good thread.

I tried to look for some OT references concerning the use of "conscience" and it was slim pickings.

"...their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness...."

Revelation uses an interesting verse concerning "hearts and "kidneys/inner mind"

3629 kilyah kil-yaw' feminine of 3627 (only in the plural); a kidney (as an essential organ); figuratively, the mind (as the interior self):--kidneys, reins.

Jeremiah 17:10 <Revelation 2:23>
I Yahweh, searching heart, examining the affections/03629 kilyah
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings.

3510. nephros nef-ros' of uncertain affinity; a kidney (plural), i.e. (figuratively) the inmost mind:--reins.

Revelation 2:23 <Jeremiah 17:10>
And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death,
and shall be knowing all the Assemblies that I AM the One searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts

I found this interesting study on "conscience" in the Bible:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/conscience.html


Conscience [N] [T] [E]

Conscience is a term that describes an aspect of a human being's self-awareness. It is part of a person's internal rational capacity and is not, as popular lore sometimes suggests, an audience room for the voice of God or of the devil. Conscience is a critical inner awareness that bears witness to the norms and values we recognize and apply. The complex of values with which conscience deals includes not only those we own, but the entire range of values to which we are exposed during life's journey. Consequently, there is always a sense of struggle in our reflective process.

The witness of conscience makes its presence known by inducing mental anguish and feelings of guilt when we violate the values we recognize and apply. Conscience also provides a sense of pleasure when we reflect on conformity to our value system.

There is no Hebrew term in the Old Testament that is a linguistic equivalent for the classical Greek term suneidesis [suneivdhsi"].
The Hebrew term for "heart, " however, is a prominent term of self-awareness in the Old Testament.

The lack of a developed concept of conscience in the Old Testament, as we see later in Paul, may be due to the worldview of the Hebrew person. Consciousness of life was of a relationship between God and a covenant community rather than an autonomous self-awareness between a person and his or her world.

The only usage of suneidesis [suneivdhsi"] in the canonical section of the Septuagint is in Ecclesiastes 10:20, "Do not revile the king even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, " where it is clearly used as self-reflection in secret (cf. the only verbal variations in Job 27:6 ; and Lev 5:1 ). Rabbinic Judaism and the Dead Sea Scrolls are consistent with the Old Testament in their lack of a vocabulary of conscience.

There are thirty occurrences of suneidesis [suneivdhsi"] in the New Testament (one more possible usage in a variant on John 8:9 ). The verb form (suneidon [suneivdw], sunoida) occurs only four times. The thirty occurrences are almost exclusively Pauline (22, with an additional 5 in Hebrews and 3 in 1 Peter), and eleven of them are in the Corinthian correspondence. The classical use of this word-group for simple knowledge occurs in ac 5:2, 12:12, and 14:6.

The Pauline development of conscience as a monitor of actions and attitudes is particularly noted in the Pastoral Epistles, where adjectives like "good" ( 1 Timothy 1:5 1 Timothy 1:19 ; cf. Acts 23:1 ) and "clear" ( 1 Tim 3:9 ; 2 Tim 1:3 ; cf. Acts 24:16 ) are used to depict the conscience as affirming right action.


.
 
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Saint Steven

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I think He's drawing/coaxing us to increasingly do better, in choosing good over evil, life over death, light over darkness, God over no God. The drama of this life, with its pain, suffering, sin, and evil alongside of its beauty and goodness is "designed" in a way to help us do just that, to make the right choice, with the help of grace, to decide between those options. It's a struggle, and a good one.

And that's why, IMO, we need to understand that the struggle is never over. We must strive in this life; we must grow/improve in our justice or righteousness. And staying neutral or thinking we play no role in it all doesn't cut it. God wants us to keep moving, with His help. I think the Parable of the Talents describes this whole dynamic quite well.

Either way the drama has a purpose.
That's a good word. Thanks.
Reminds me of this scripture. The world wants us to conform, to give in, to go with the downward flow. On the other hand, they seem to recognize a positive effort toward the universal good.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
 
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Saint Steven

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The scripture you quote in the edit explains that now our conscience has been improved, by His plan accomplished, the law of righteousness written in our hearts.

So now we have two competing forces (not just one) in us -- that of the flesh and that of the spirit.
Our conscience has been improved? That's interesting. How so?
 
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Good thread.

I tried to look for some OT references concerning the use of "conscience" and it was slim pickings.

"...their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness...."

Revelation uses an interesting verse concerning "hearts and "kidneys/inner mind"

3629 kilyah kil-yaw' feminine of 3627 (only in the plural); a kidney (as an essential organ); figuratively, the mind (as the interior self):--kidneys, reins.

Jeremiah 17:10 <Revelation 2:23>
I Yahweh, searching heart, examining the affections/03629 kilyah
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings.

3510. nephros nef-ros' of uncertain affinity; a kidney (plural), i.e. (figuratively) the inmost mind:--reins.

Revelation 2:23 <Jeremiah 17:10>
And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death,
and shall be knowing all the Assemblies that I AM the One searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts

I found this interesting study on "conscience" in the Bible:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/conscience.html


Conscience [N] [T] [E]

Conscience is a term that describes an aspect of a human being's self-awareness. It is part of a person's internal rational capacity and is not, as popular lore sometimes suggests, an audience room for the voice of God or of the devil. Conscience is a critical inner awareness that bears witness to the norms and values we recognize and apply. The complex of values with which conscience deals includes not only those we own, but the entire range of values to which we are exposed during life's journey. Consequently, there is always a sense of struggle in our reflective process.

The witness of conscience makes its presence known by inducing mental anguish and feelings of guilt when we violate the values we recognize and apply. Conscience also provides a sense of pleasure when we reflect on conformity to our value system.

There is no Hebrew term in the Old Testament that is a linguistic equivalent for the classical Greek term suneidesis [suneivdhsi"].
The Hebrew term for "heart, " however, is a prominent term of self-awareness in the Old Testament.

The lack of a developed concept of conscience in the Old Testament, as we see later in Paul, may be due to the worldview of the Hebrew person. Consciousness of life was of a relationship between God and a covenant community rather than an autonomous self-awareness between a person and his or her world.

The only usage of suneidesis [suneivdhsi"] in the canonical section of the Septuagint is in Ecclesiastes 10:20, "Do not revile the king even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, " where it is clearly used as self-reflection in secret (cf. the only verbal variations in Job 27:6 ; and Lev 5:1 ). Rabbinic Judaism and the Dead Sea Scrolls are consistent with the Old Testament in their lack of a vocabulary of conscience.

There are thirty occurrences of suneidesis [suneivdhsi"] in the New Testament (one more possible usage in a variant on John 8:9 ). The verb form (suneidon [suneivdw], sunoida) occurs only four times. The thirty occurrences are almost exclusively Pauline (22, with an additional 5 in Hebrews and 3 in 1 Peter), and eleven of them are in the Corinthian correspondence. The classical use of this word-group for simple knowledge occurs in ac 5:2, 12:12, and 14:6.

The Pauline development of conscience as a monitor of actions and attitudes is particularly noted in the Pastoral Epistles, where adjectives like "good" ( 1 Timothy 1:5 1 Timothy 1:19 ; cf. Acts 23:1 ) and "clear" ( 1 Tim 3:9 ; 2 Tim 1:3 ; cf. Acts 24:16 ) are used to depict the conscience as affirming right action.


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That article denies God's role in our conscience.
 
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