What is the Salvation Equation?

  • Salvation = Works Alone (without God's grace).

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What if that living out of faith equates to 1 step forward and 2 steps back and a person happens to end life a few steps in the hole?

A whole lotta folks here in the forum say that that guy is a day late and a dollar short in his sanctification and therefore looses out.

God knows the heart of every person, and God knows all possibilities for all people.
God also is the giver and taker of life. So there is no accidental deaths and there is no accidental judgments upon a person's life. The Lord said, "for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matthew 11:23). The question is: "Why didn't God do the might works in Sodom so that it could remain to this day?" Well, to answer this: I believe God knows the hearts of all men and God knows what is best for all men. God has a plan and direction for all men's lives and it is to lead them to salvation in the Lord and in walking uprightly with Him. It's possible that those in Sodom most likely would have only believed for a time, and lived holy for a time to keep the city from being destroyed, but they later could have backslid even worse than they were before. The city of Sodom could have also remained because it would have attracted true faithful men of God to live there by the Sodomites who lived for the Lord for a short period of their lives. In fact, I am not sure if you are aware of this or not, but the Global Flood and the destruction of Sodom were examples to all who would live ungodly thereafter (See: 2 Peter 2:4-6). So yeah, the whole idea that a Christian can think they can sin and still be saved because they have a belief alone on Jesus alone is not only a violation of basic morality, but it is a violation of Scripture. For over, and over, and over again, the Bible warns against those who sin or those who justify sin. The Bible is practically hitting a person over the head with a club, "do not sin, or you will die spiritually." and or it says: "Be faithful to the Lord, or you will die spiritually."
 
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What if that living out of faith equates to 1 step forward and 2 steps back and a person happens to end life a few steps in the hole?

A whole lotta folks here in the forum say that that guy is a day late and a dollar short in his sanctification and therefore looses out.

I am not against God's grace for those who are genuine in their desire to seek true forgiveness with God. But if a person has an evil heart on wanting to hold on to their sin later on, and they never really were broken up about their sin to forsake it genuinely, then they are just faking that they are sorry. For if a man cheats on his wife, and keeps telling her that he is sorry (But he has no intention of stopping his adultery), is he really sorry? No. Of course not. It is the same with God. But make no mistake, the Bible warns against how sin can destroy us spiritually (unless we confess and forsake those sins). if you want to be a good student of God's Word, try doing a study on the following verses below (Note: Oh, and do not try to change the verses below in what they say or try to explain them away because you don't like them; Just read them, and believe them in what they plainly say).


The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
 
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@His student

If you are against Sanctification (after we are saved by God's grace) being a part of the salvation process (for those who live out their faith), then you should be able to at least take 5 out of the 30 points I made in Scripture and explain them easily using the Bible (See post #13 within this thread again). Maybe you've been busy, and I understand. Either way, if you are correct in your view of Soteriology, then you should have no trouble explaining what those verses are saying.

Anyways, blessings to you in the Lord today;
And may you please be well.
 
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His student

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His student said:

What if that living out of faith equates to 1 step forward and 2 steps back and a person happens to end life a few steps in the hole? A whole lotta folks here in the forum say that that guy is a day late and a dollar short in his sanctification and therefore looses out.
......the whole idea that a Christian can think they can sin and still be saved because they have a belief alone on Jesus alone is not only a violation of basic morality, but it is a violation of Scripture. .........
OK - a lotta folks here try to mask their works salvation message. I'm glad we got yours right out front for all to see.
If you are against Sanctification (after we are saved by God's grace) being a part of the salvation process (for those who live out their faith), then you should be able to at least take 5 out of the 30 points I made in Scripture and explain them easily using the Bible
Since I'm not of that persuasion, just as the guy in the example I gave isn't, I guess there's no reason for me to take up your challenge.

Everyone knows that sanctification is part of the salvation process as is election, effectual calling, coming to the Son in repentance and eventual glorification.

The issue is whether one has to achieve a certain level of success in their cooperation with the Lord Who is working in us in order to stay saved in the most basic sense.

You obviously believe that they do and I believe that they don't.

Both of us know that there is true repentant, confessing and justifying faith and mere professing and or works gospel faith in Christendom. The guy in my example was of the former kind, even if he didn't live up to your standards and hold onto that standard til the end.

You obviously are not of the second kind. But you are most definitely of the the third kind.

P.S.
I had forgotten how you like to camp out here and answer with multiple prepared cut and past responses.

I'll leave you to it.

I probably should have let your thread die a well deserved death.
 
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His student said:

What if that living out of faith equates to 1 step forward and 2 steps back and a person happens to end life a few steps in the hole? A whole lotta folks here in the forum say that that guy is a day late and a dollar short in his sanctification and therefore looses out.

OK - a lotta folks here try to mask their works salvation message. I'm glad we got yours right out front for all to see.

Why should I hide what the Bible plainly says?
It is Scriptural fact that Sanctification plays a part in our salvation (after we are saved by God's grace). Just look at the 30 points in Scripture I showed to you before in post #13 that you do not want to explain.


You said:
Since I'm not of that persuasion, just as the guy in the example I gave isn't, I guess there's no reason for me to take up your challenge.

The guy in your example does not exist. You want me to believe God is unfair in the salvation process involving both Justification and Sanctification. He is not. You need both to be saved. For the Bible tells us so (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, John 5:24, and James 2:24).

As for you not being of this persuasion:

Well, its what the Bible plainly teaches, dear sir. Unless you want to cut out the parts of the Bible you don't like, you have to seek and follow after the truth. The truth of God's Word is not going to go away just because you choose not to align your views with it. Our thoughts are not God's thoughts. God is holy, and He commands us to be holy (1 Peter 1:16).

You said:
Everyone knows that sanctification is part of the salvation process as is election, effectual calling, coming to the Son in repentance and eventual glorification.

Actually, this is not true. First, most self proclaimed Bible believing churches do not believe Sanctification is a part of salvation. If they do say so, it is not the Bible's version of Sanctification (and they usually include some kind of acceptance that they can sin and still be saved which is contradictory to the idea of Sanctification or in being made holy). Second, a moment ago you appeared to be on the defense for Belief Alone-ism instead of giving a "like" or positive comment to my post on the list of points I made in Scripture (for Sanctification being a part of salvation). You also tried to make a point against Sanctification for salvation because you mentioned an example about a guy who entered the Sanctification Process and then later faltered from that position (and was still saved). So no. Everyone does not believe Sanctification plays a part in our salvation. Most are strongly against that idea because they want the easy and wide gate path.

You said:
The issue is whether one has to achieve a certain level of success in their cooperation with the Lord Who is working in us in order to stay saved in the most basic sense.

You obviously believe that they do and I believe that they don't.

What we believe does not matter. What matters is that our belief has to line up with what the Bible says. We do have to meet a bare minimum level requirement of living holy according to God's Word. If not, we will not make it. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). For if our righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, we will by no means enter the kingdom of Heaven (See: Matthew 5:20). For loving God, and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28).

You said:
Both of us know that there is true repentant, confessing and justifying faith and mere professing and or works gospel faith in Christendom. The guy in my example was of the former kind, even if he didn't live up to your standards and hold onto that standard til the end.

Please describe to me what a works gospel faith in Christiandom looks like and why that is wrong according to the Bible?

As for the guy in your example: You are saying that the guy in your example did not live holy and yet he was still saved despite his failing to meet the requirement of Sanctification. Now, while I believe God can save a person by His grace, I do not believe this includes that a believer can sin and still be saved. A believer has to confess and forsake sin otherwise they are not truly sorry. Question: Is a man who cheats on his wife and just keeps telling her he is sorry truly repentant or grieved by what he is doing? No. He is not really sorry. Only if he stops and is broken in heart is he truly sorry. You want me to believe God just saves us anyway even if we are like the guy who cheats on his wife and just pays lip service to her that he is sorry (When he really is not). Well, at least this is the strong impression I get by what you said so far.

You said:
You obviously are not of the second kind. But you are most definitely of the the third kind.

You are being very vague here. What is the difference between the 2nd kind, and the 3rd kind?

You said:
P.S.
I had forgotten how you like to camp out here and answer with multiple prepared cut and past responses.

We are told to contend for the faith, and to preach the Word. That is what I am doing. Unless you don't care about those instructions in Scripture, I personally do care about them and will continue to defend the truth of God's Word to my last dying breath. Also, the list of verses that I copy and paste (unless you see a source link) are from my own personal diligent study with God, and not the work from another.

You said:
I'll leave you to it.

Then my battle for the truth goes unhindered. Thank you.

You said:
I probably should have let your thread die a well deserved death.

This is not the only thread I have defended the truth on before involving the Bible's correct teaching on Soteriology. it will definitely will not be the last one, either. God's truth will continue to be preached here whether this thread dies out or not. For there are other new threads from different angles that I can preach on to defend the view that we need both Justification and (true) Sanctification in regards to salvation.

Anyways, you are not the first person I have encountered to remain dead silent on answering properly the verses I put forth before, and you will not be the last. In fact, this is a common tactic by those who believe as you do (of which I pray that you may see otherwise someday).

Granted, there are those who do try to act like they know what the verses are saying (that I put forth to them), and they do offer an explanation, but it is not based on what the verses actually say; Some are just not reading and believing those verses in what they plainly say. It is as if when they read those verses, they cannot truly see them. In other cases, some try to change what God's Word says. Either way, it is not pretty, my friend. We got many out there who are not reading and believing the whole counsel of God's Word in what it plainly says (Note: I believe this relates to the parable of the sower in Matthew 13; They do not believe certain verses in their Bible because the seed of God's Word for those verses were not received into their heart so as to truly believe them).

In any event, I say this in love and with the hope that you and others might see where I am coming from with the Bible. Continue to seek the truth in God's Word by way or prayer (even if you may not like that truth).

Blessings be unto you in the Lord,

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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His student

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The guy in your example does not exist.
Nonsense. That guy is quite typical.
As for you not being of this persuasion: Well, its what the Bible plainly teaches, dear sir.
The persuasion I refer to is those who believe that sanctification is not part of the salvation process. I know of no one who would say such a thing - certainly not me.
Actually, this is not true. First, most self proclaimed Bible believing churches do not believe Sanctification is a part of salvation.
Nonsense - most do. They just break salvation down into it's constituent parts just as the scriptures do.
You also tried to make a point against Sanctification for salvation because you mentioned an example about a guy who entered the Sanctification Process and then later faltered from that position (and was still saved).
Exactly as many or even most Christians do.
Everyone does not believe Sanctification plays a part in our salvation. Most are strongly against that idea because they want the easy and wide gate path.
No - they are against the idea that sanctification plays a part in passing from death to life, being born again, being sealed with the Spirit of God unto the day of judgement and being seated with Christ in the heavenlies even as we are being sanctified through the continued work that God is doing in us.

They simply believe what the scriptures teach about salvation in the basic sense being a present possession even as we continue to work with God throughout life in the sanctification process.
For if our righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, we will by no means enter the kingdom of Heaven
Many of us believe that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. Some, like you, believe that we will perhaps be that if we keep out nose clean and don't falter too much during our sanctification.
Please describe to me what a works gospel faith in Christiandom looks like and why that is wrong according to the Bible?
Yours is.
As for the guy in your example: You are saying that the guy in your example did not live holy and yet he was still saved despite his failing to meet the requirement of Sanctification. Now, while I believe God can save a person by His grace, I do not believe this includes that a believer can sin and still be saved. A believer has to confess and forsake sin otherwise they are not truly sorry.
Then you don't believe the Bible or you lump sanctification in with being made a part of the body of Christ. You obviously fit the latter case - one who misunderstands the different phases of salvation.
A believer has to confess and forsake sin otherwise they are not truly sorry.
Well duhh. Who doesn't believe that?
You are being very vague here. What is the difference between the 2nd kind, and the 3rd kind?
Both of us know that there is true repentant, confessing and justifying faith and mere professing and or works gospel faith in Christendom. The guy in my example was of the former kind, even if he didn't live up to your standards and hold onto that standard til the end.
You obviously are not of the second kind. But you are most definitely of the the third kind.
The first kind is the example I gave. I.e. a man who confessed and repented often even as he faltered often during the sanctification process and was still justified before God through the advocacy of Jesus Christ.

The second kind is a mere professing Christian. Obviously you don't fit into that category.

The third kind is the one who believes some form of gospel of works. You fit that category to a tee.

At this stage I just realized how long your post was going be and will leave you to it, as I said before that I would.

God will have to decide if you are simply a well meaning believer with some misunderstandings concerning the different phases of salvation --- or whether you are a person who is so filled with pride because of what you view as your own success in working out your salvation that you have ended up believing and teaching a false gospel.

Hope to see you on the other side.
 
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Many of us believe that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. Some, like you, believe that we will perhaps be that if we keep out nose clean and don't falter too much during our sanctification.

Well, when you read 2 Corinthians 5:21, you should also read the very next verse in the next chapter. It says,

"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." (2 Corinthians 6:1).

Skipping down to the end of 2 Corinthians 6, we learn what Paul meant by this. If we have fellowship with unbelievers, we can receive the grace of God in vain then. So our actions affect whether or not we have the continued grace of God in our lives. 1 John 1:7 is another one. It says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, ... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother (1 John 2:9-11). So we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin (God's grace).

Bible Highlighter said:
Please describe to me what a works gospel faith in Christiandom looks like and why that is wrong according to the Bible?
You said:
Yours is.

Okay, but you really did not point out how my view on Soteriology is wrong with the Bible though.

Bible Highlighter said:
As for the guy in your example: You are saying that the guy in your example did not live holy and yet he was still saved despite his failing to meet the requirement of Sanctification. Now, while I believe God can save a person by His grace, I do not believe this includes that a believer can sin and still be saved. A believer has to confess and forsake sin otherwise they are not truly sorry.
You said:
Then you don't believe the Bible or you lump sanctification in with being made a part of the body of Christ. You obviously fit the latter case - one who misunderstands the different phases of salvation.

Not sure how this addresses what I said here. Do you care to elaborate?

Bible Highlighter said:
A believer has to confess and forsake sin otherwise they are not truly sorry.
You said:
Well duhh. Who doesn't believe that?

But I don't get the impression from you that confessing sin, and or refraining from committing grievous sin (like lying, lusting, and hating, etc.) is a part of salvation, though. I get the impression that you believe like all the rest in the fact that a person can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

Anyways, it is late where I am at, and I have to sleep.
I hope to reply to the rest of what you write tomorrow (Lord willing).

May God's love and peace be upon you (even if we disagree strongly on Soteriology).


Side Note:

I also lost the beginning part of my reply to your post to you, as well. So it looks like I have to re-write that again.
 
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JLB777

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What is the Salvation Equation?

(Please vote in the poll).


Note 1:

Please take not that I am not asking the question because I don't know the answer. I am asking so that you can share your belief and defend it with the Bible.

Note 2:

I am assuming Glorification (a Work of GOD) is held by most believers because they hold to the view that GOD will one say bring them into His Kingdom one day. So this aspect of salvation is implied in most of all the choices below.

Note 3:

The gospel (according to the poll) is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Note 4:

This does not refer to the kind of faith that received on one's death bed, but a faith that lives itself out over the course of a person's life.


Initial salvation; ie
Being Born again, regenerated, Saved by grace through faith

Is by obeying the Gospel.


Receiving the Salvation of our soul; ie
inheriting eternal life, inheriting the kingdom of God, entering the kingdom of God, coming forth in the resurrection of life...


Is by obeying the Lord





JLB
 
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Many of us believe that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. Some, like you, believe that we will perhaps be that if we keep out nose clean and don't falter too much during our sanctification.

Bless you friend, I’m not sure what you mean by this. God’s righteousness is perfect, yet we are far from perfect. We ourselves will not be perfect until we receive glorification which does not happen in in this life. We do receive atonement of sin and Christ’s imputed righteousness but we will still sin. God’s righteousness is perfect and without sin. Furthermore God’s righteousness is a characteristic of God and I don’t see how we can be a characteristic of God, however we can have characteristics of God at times but even then our characteristics of God will not be perfect.
 
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What if that living out of faith equates to 1 step forward and 2 steps back and a person happens to end life a few steps in the hole? A whole lotta folks here in the forum say that that guy is a day late and a dollar short in his sanctification and therefore looses out.

If such a person’s heart is aimed towards serving God he will be saved. It’s not the actions themselves that save or condemn us but the motives behind the actions.
 
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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Plain and simple. :oldthumbsup:

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to accept the truth. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.
 
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Many who believe in faith alone, a doctrine not created until the 16th century, have a tendency to omit what we were created in Christ for in Ephesians 2.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The question is not whether or not we are saved by faith with or without works, the question is are we saved by faith without love for God and love for others? It is our love for God that compels our obedience just as it is our love for others that compels our works of kind heartedness and charity. Jesus expressed the importance of love throughout His ministry. In John 15 He explains the necessity of works done out of love in order to receive salvation, not that the works themselves are necessary but the love that inspires them is necessary.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away (cuts off or removes); and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul made it clear that we are not saved by faith alone. Faith without love will not result in salvation.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Initial salvation; ie
Being Born again, regenerated, Saved by grace through faith

Is by obeying the Gospel.


Receiving the Salvation of our soul; ie
inheriting eternal life, inheriting the kingdom of God, entering the kingdom of God, coming forth in the resurrection of life...


Is by obeying the Lord


JLB

I think we are on the same page overall, brother. We definitely need obedience to the Lord or there is no salvation; Especially obedience to his commands (Matthew 19:17-19, Luke 10:25-28). But I see a belief in the gospel as one thing (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (Justification), and obedience to the gospel as another thing (Romans 6:5-7, cf. compare with Romans 6:3-4) (Sanctification).
 
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His student

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Bless you friend, I’m not sure what you mean by this.
I mean what God means by it. He's the one Who said it.
We ourselves will not be perfect until we receive glorification which does not happen in in this life.
Of course.
... God’s righteousness is a characteristic of God and I don’t see how we can be a characteristic of God,
By being in the "Body of Christ" - which we are after immediately after being born again and sealed with His Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:27 "Now we are the body of Christ, and members in particular"

Now
- not someday, if we manage keep our nose clean and make the grade.

Again - God is the one who said that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. I'm just relaying the message.:)
... however we can have characteristics of God at times but even then our characteristics of God will not be perfect.
Which of course is why we need an advocate Who constantly intercedes for us as well as us being in the Body of Christ.

Many here seem to think that we will, perhaps become the Body of Christ in the future after a final judgment. I'm not one of them.

Many here seem to think that we are seated with Christ in Heaven and reigning in the Kingdom of God one minute and that we are kicked off His throne on occasion until such time as we get right with Him again and He takes our hand and helps us back on the throne with Him - doing this over and over and over and over and over again throughout our life. When we reach the end of life here on earth we will see if we are in a state of grace on His throne and be saved or are at His feet and lost forever.

Or - since this is such a problematic picture of our status - they take the former position that it all happens sometime in the future, if at all.

I hold a soteriology position quite different than those positions.

But then - I believe that I have passed from death to life and will never come into condemnation again and that He Who began the good work in me will complete that work He started.

Again though - there are apparently many here in the forum who deny that God is the author and finisher of our faith.

To each His own. But I know Whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day.

Again though - there seem to be quite a few who have not entrusted their salvation to Him.

I'm not one of those.
 
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I mean what God means by it. He's the one Who said it.

Of course.

By being in the "Body of Christ" - which we are after immediately after being born again and sealed with His Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:27 "Now we are the body of Christ, and members in particular"

Now
- not someday, if we manage keep our nose clean and make the grade.

Again - God is the one who said that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. I'm just relaying the message.:)

Which of course is why we need an advocate Who constantly intercedes for us as well as us being in the Body of Christ.

Many here seem to think that we will, perhaps become the Body of Christ in the future after a final judgment. I'm not one of them.

Many here seem to think that we are seated with Christ in Heaven and reigning in the Kingdom of God one minute and that we are kicked off His throne on occasion until such time as we get right with Him again and He takes our hand and helps us back on the throne with Him - doing this over and over and over and over and over again throughout our life. When we reach the end of life here on earth we will see if we are in a state of grace on His throne and be saved or are at His feet and lost forever.

Or - since this is such a problematic picture of our status - they take the former position that it all happens sometime in the future, if at all.

I hold a soteriology position quite different than those positions.

But then - I believe that I have passed from death to life and will never come into condemnation again and that He Who began the good work in me will complete that work He started.

Again though - there are apparently many here in the forum who deny that God is the author and finisher of our faith.

To each His own. But I know Whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day.

Again though - there seem to be quite a few who have not entrusted their salvation to Him.

I'm not one of those.

The scriptures give many indications that some believers will turn away from God. John 15 Jesus warns His faithful 11 apostles of the consequences of failing to abide in Him. Romans 11 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted into the olive tree (God’s covenant) of being broken off by God for being conceited or for turning to unbelief. Paul also said in 2 Timothy 2:12 if we deny Him He will deny us. Notice that Paul includes even Himself as being capable of denying Christ resulting in Christ denying him. God will always provide a way for us to be saved and He will always receive us if we choose to repent but He will not force us to do so. He may encourage us and urge us to repent but repentance is never guaranteed for anyone, even someone as devoted and faithful as God’s apostles. The scriptures say several times that we must endure to the end to receive eternal life.
 
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His Student said:
What if that living out of faith equates to 1 step forward and 2 steps back and a person happens to end life a few steps in the hole? A whole lotta folks here in the forum say that that guy is a day late and a dollar short in his sanctification and therefore looses out.
Bible Highlighter said:
The guy in your example does not exist.
Nonsense. That guy is quite typical.

When I say that the guy in your example does not exist, I am saying that such a person does not exist in regards to the fact that they can sin and still be saved. Sure, I imagine you think this individual exists from your perspective, but in reality, this belief is simply not biblical or moral. The Bible does not teach that one can persist in serious sins and can inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21); Especially while they continue in such grievous sins. For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).

You said:
The persuasion I refer to is those who believe that sanctification is not part of the salvation process.

Obviously your view of Sanctification does not include good works as a part of salvation because you said this:

"OK - a lotta folks here try to mask their works salvation message. I'm glad we got yours right out front for all to see." ~ His Student.
This means you believe in a non-works based version of Sanctification. I have heard of this version of Sanctification before. It is called Positional Sanctification. The Sanctification I refer to is the one in the Bible which is a process, and not a position.

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:" (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;" (1 Thessalonians 4:4).

As a matter of fact, Titus 1:16 says we can deny God by a lack of works.
Matthew 25:30 says that the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness.
James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
etc, etc. etc.

You said:
I know of no one who would say such a thing - certainly not me.
Nonsense - most do. They just break salvation down into it's constituent parts just as the scriptures do.

I am not new to Christian forums or this topic. I have discussed this topic many times and most appear to justify that they can sin and still be saved, and that holiness or Sanctification is not a part of the salvation process. You would be the first one to say otherwise.

You said:
No - they are against the idea that sanctification plays a part in passing from death to life, being born again, being sealed with the Spirit of God unto the day of judgement and being seated with Christ in the heavenlies even as we are being sanctified through the continued work that God is doing in us.

Minus the last thing you said here, I believe these things happen at Justification, or when a person accepts the Lord as their Savior (i.e. God's grace through faith in Jesus), and in believing in His death and resurrection on their behalf, and in seeking forgiveness with Him. But that is just one phase or step in the salvation process. We have to continue on into Sanctification, which is to live holy by the Spirit. Romans 8:13 gives us a choice in which path we as believers are to take. Paul says if we live after the flesh, we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we will live.

You said:
They simply believe what the scriptures teach about salvation in the basic sense being a present possession even as we continue to work with God throughout life in the sanctification process.

But that is not how things work. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). It doesn't sound like your view of salvation appears to have any fear or trembling in it (as Scripture says).
 
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His student

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When I say that the guy in your example does not exist, I am saying that such a person does not exist in regards to the fact that they can sin and still be saved. Sure, I imagine you think this individual exists from your perspective, but in reality, this belief is simply not be biblical or moral. The Bible does not teach that one can persist in sin and be saved while they continue in such a a grievous sin.
I'm sorry.

You must have thought that I gave an example of a guy who persisted and continued in grievous sin. It "appears to me" that you pretty much see what you want to see in other peoples beliefs.
. I have heard of this version of Sanctification before. It is called Positional Sanctification. The Sanctification I refer to is the one in the Bible which is a process, and not a position
You are mistaken. The sanctification I speak of is not positional sanctification. It is a process.

I just don't believe that God goes back on His pledge that we won't come into condemnation just because we stumble along the way in the process.
I am not new to Christian forums or this topic. I have discussed this topic many times and most appear to justify that they can sin and still be saved, and that holiness or Sanctification is not a part of the salvation process. You would be the first one to say otherwise.
I notice that you say that most "appear". That certainly is your slant on what they are likely saying.

I'm pretty sure that they, like me, agree that sanctification is part of the salvation process. It just isn't that part where God's holy seal is applied and removed and applied and removed and applied and removed...........with the hope that you'll die with the seal applied. That part doesn't exist.
But that is not how things work. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). It doesn't sound like your view of salvation appears to have any fear or trembling in it (as Scripture says).
There's that word "appears" again.

This is just your slant on what the sanctification process in salvation entails for people like me.

Look - this is pretty straight forward and doesn't really require any more posts from either of us to lay out.

You think that every word of warning about sin leading to death or sinners not entering the Kingdom of God refers to them entering the eternal fires of Hell. I do not.

You don't believe the promise of God that He will complete the work He began in believers. I do.

So be it.
 
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I'm sorry.

You must have thought that I gave an example of a guy who persisted and continued in grievous sin. It "appears to me" that you pretty much see what you want to see in other peoples beliefs.

Well, I don't think so, friend. Otherwise you would not be against what I said in that works of the Lord done through a believer, and or holy living (by the Spirit) is a requirement for salvation. For what is the opposite of living holy? It is living unholy. What is the opposite of having good works? It is having no good works and in being unfruitful for the Lord. I believe the majority of (and not all) Belief Alone Proponent's view on living holy vs. living sinful is skewed and it is not in line with what the Bible teaches. Basically, when push comes to shove, there is some level of sin that is justified and or some level of unfruitfulness that is promoted ever so subtly in most Belief Alone Proponent's view on Soteriology and Harmatialogy.

How so?

Do you believe future sin is forgiven you?
Do you believe that grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) does not cause spiritual death for a believer?
If you answered "yes" to these two questions, and you told a child this, and you never see them again (so as to tell them that they must also live holy and not justify sin), they could potentially turn out to be the next George Sodini or Kenneth Nally by hearing such a teaching.

Check out these two links to learn more about them:

You said:
You are mistaken. The sanctification I speak of is not positional sanctification. It is a process.

But this view does not sound like Sola Fide (Faith Alone) like the majority of Protestant churches adhere to, unless you believe this Sanctification process is forced upon the believer after they make a one time decision in accepting Christ as their Savior, seek His forgiveness, and believe in His death, burial , and resurrection on their behalf (i.e. the Justification Process) (Note: I believe the Justification Process is a part of one's "Initial and Foundational Salvation" and nobody can enter into the Sanctification Process without them first entering into the Justification Process).

If you believe Progressive Sanctification is forced and beyond the control of the believer in the fact that they are changed and they will in time automatically do God's will and live somewhat more holy in time (beyond their free will choice), then how do you explain the following verses?

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

In fact, we are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22)

Why are we told to continue in the grace of God, continue in the faith, and continue in His goodness (otherwise we can be cut off) if these things are just automatic as a part of being born again?

You said:
I just don't believe that God goes back on His pledge that we won't come into condemnation just because we stumble along the way in the process.

Believers can have forgiveness of sin if they stumble on rare occasion, but they have to confess and forsake those sins in order to be continually forgiven (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13). Believers also cannot think that they will always be slaves to their sin in this life either. For Paul tells us to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). But there is mercy for those who honestly stumble on their road to recovery in overcoming grievous sin. For 1 John 1:9 says, "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..."; So if one does not confess of their sins, they are not forgiven. For 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. A person cannot have forgiveness without confessing their sins to the Lord Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9, cf. 1 John 2:1). A person cannot say they know the Lord and break His commandments; For if they do, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

An example of what I am talking about is a drunk who joins a drug program to overcome his sin of alcoholism and does so in time, vs. the drunk who joins a drug program to please a family member and yet they have no real intention or belief that they can overcome their sin of alcoholism.

You said:
I notice that you say that most "appear". That certainly is your slant on what they are likely saying.

I'm pretty sure that they, like me, agree that sanctification is part of the salvation process. It just isn't that part where God's holy seal is applied and removed and applied and removed and applied and removed...........with the hope that you'll die with the seal applied. That part doesn't exist.
There's that word "appears" again.

This is just your slant on what the sanctification process in salvation entails for people like me.

Look - this is pretty straight forward and doesn't really require any more posts from either of us to lay out.

You think that every word of warning about sin leading to death or sinners not entering the Kingdom of God refers to them entering the eternal fires of Hell. I do not.

You don't believe the promise of God that He will complete the work He began in believers. I do.

So be it.

I believe the Bible plainly teaches that committing certain sins (like committing murder, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.) can cause spiritual death, unless we confess and forsake such sins (1 John 1:9 cf. 1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13) (Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10).

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. Jesus Himself said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#7. Paul says we can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).

#8. The author of Hebrews says for us to FOLLOW after holiness; For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Note: Why are we told to follow after holiness if it is some kind of automatic thing of the regeneration as a part of believing in Jesus alone for salvation? It makes no sense.​


The above verses in Scripture either have to be re-written or distorted, or ignored in order to make your view of Soteriology and Harmatialogy work. But I will stick with what the Bible plainly teaches, my friend.
 
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