concretecamper
I stand with Candice.
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Baloney. The idea that it was Peter may well have been taught. You may agree with that assessment, but to say that the idea it was Peter's confession was never taught is ridiculous. This debate has been going on for centuries, millenia even.The idea that the rock is Peter's confession was never taught by the Church, and for good reason.
Whom the Father reveals in us ...What is the rock being referred to in Matthew 16:18?
I believe they were by the massif at Caesarea Philippi when Jesus spoke these words.There's the 3rd far less popular explanation about what 'THIS rock' is referring to. It involves the historical context of what people believed during the second temple period. Basically the disciples in the first century would be aware of a third rock present at their location. That third rock would neither be Christ or Peter but the location they were standing on.
What Did Jesus Mean by “Gates of Hell”? | The Logos Blog
I suspect all my possessions will last some time after my death also.Moses died too. But the "Seat of Moses" didnt end with his death.
It really doesn't make sense that it could refer to anyone or anything other than Peter, to whom Christ was speaking.
That doesn't mean that all the theories which have flowed from this conversation are correct, but the answer to your question, as asked, does seem definitely to be "Peter."
The foundation being eternal makes sense.
In terms of the reference being solely about Peter, it doesn't fit what we see in Acts 15. It is not Peter who is head of the church, but James, the brother of Jesus. Peter is at the council, and functions as a witness but not as head of the assembly.
you can of course come up with individuals that taught something different. But I DID NOT reference individuals, did I.Baloney. The idea that it was Peter may well have been taught. You may agree with that assessment, but to say that the idea it was Peter's confession was never taught is ridiculous. This debate has been going on for centuries, millenia even.
haha, if anything this statement is funny.I suspect all my possessions will last some time after my death also.
do some research and find out what the Jewish people of that time viewed the Seat of Moses. Your answer suggests ignorance.The "seat of Moses" was just that, a chair.
of course, but what does this have to do with the discussion?Christ is our hope and salvation
sorry, but you cannot know the Church without knowing its history and where it came from.I'm not putting Peter down, simply keep the focus on that which the church is built on... Jesus Christ
Stick with your history. I'll stick with scripture.haha, if anything this statement is funny.
do some research and find out what the Jewish people of that time viewed the Seat of Moses. Your answer suggests ignorance.
of course, but what does this have to do with the discussion?
sorry, but you cannot know the Church without knowing its history and where it came from.
Oh, I see. So the "church" only consists of who you approve of. Got it.you can of course come up with individuals that taught something different. But I DID NOT reference individuals, did I.
No, because there would be no precedent for it. I just showed you how Christ was known to have used present examples when talking about himself, and that it created confusion, probably intentionally. I don't see evidence that his words could be interpreted any way I want.But if so, you could conclude that the passage in Matthew (which, however, does not appear to be full of analogies or mysterious symbolism) could mean almost anything you might want it to mean.
I tend to see a cultural divide in how distinctions are made when I read the ECFs.Disputes on this topic are quite old.
St. John Chrysostom understands here that the rock upon which Christ builds His Church is the confession of the Apostle,
"'And I say unto you, You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;' that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. 'And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' 'And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because you are shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 54 on Matthew, 3
St. Augustine speaks of having in other places said Peter is the rock upon which the Church is built, but in his Retractions brings more clarity and invites the reader to consider whether it should be taken to mean Peter himself or Peter's confession and thus Christ Himself:
"I have said in a certain place of the Apostle Peter, that it was on him, as on a rock, that the Church was built. But I know that since that I have often explained these words of the Lord, Thou art Peter, and on this rock will I build my Church, as meaning upon Him whom Peter had confessed in the words, Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God; and so that Peter, taking his name from this rock, would represent the Church, which is built upon this rock. For it is not said to him, Thou art the rock, but, Thou art Peter. But the rock was Christ, whom because Simon thus confessed, as the whole Church confesses Him, he was named Peter. Let the reader choose whether of these two opinions seems to him the more probable." - St. Augustine of Hippo, Retractions 1.24 (quote here taken from the Catena Aurea of Thomas Aquinas)
Earlier we have in Tertulian's apologetic/polemic against Marcion, he writes,
"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,'" - Tertullian, Against Marcion, ch. 22
Origen in his Commentaries on John mentions the following in passing while discussing the writings left by the Apostles,
"And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail left only one epistle of acknowledged genuineness." - Origen, Commentaries on John, 5.3
While in his Commentaries on Matthew the same Origen says,
"if we say it as Peter, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven shining in our heart, we too become as Peter, being pronounced blessed as he was, because that the grounds on which he was pronounced blessed apply also to us, by reason of the fact that flesh and blood have not revealed to us with regard to Jesus that He is Christ, the Son of the living God, but the Father in heaven, from the very heavens, that our citizenship may be in heaven, revealing to us the revelation which carries up to heaven those who take away every veil from the heart, and receive "the spirit of the wisdom and revelation" of God. And if we too have said like Peter, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, "You are Peter," etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God." - Origen, Commentaries on Matthew, 12.10
This is hardly exhaustive, but it does provide some insight into the ways the ancient fathers saw and understood the text.
-CryptoLutheran
What is the rock being referred to in Matthew 16:18?
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