LDS What is the reward?

[BigDaddy4]

How did God choose them?

Were they prophets, seers, and revelatory? Were they peers of Moses, Peter, and Paul?

I do not know the mind of God, nor the ways in which He chooses people or groups of people to do things.

Why are you going on about "prophets, seers, and revelatory?" Is the some kind of requirement that one must be one of those for God to direct His Holy Spirit to do His will?

And yes, they were "peers of Moses, Peter, and Paul", for God is not a respector of persons.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Guess what? I know the false teachings of Mormonism.

Then please post actual LDS beliefs and not false ones.

Unless you are omniscient, you don't know what John knew.

He's talking about what John wrote...

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

LDS believe this.

Man's first birth(the fleshy one) was from the womb. So if he needs to be born again it is of the Spirit. A third birth isn't mentioned.

So you don't believe that a believer should be baptized? How do you reconcile this with scriptures such as Matthew 28:19?

Ephesians 2
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luke 7
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace (εἰρήνη [eirēnē]) .

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus

Ephesians 2:1-10 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

John 5:24 (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1 John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 3
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 4
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins...

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Lot's more scriptures LDS believe. (I grouped a bunch from throughout your post).

Salvation doesn't come is parts. Sanctification begins at salvation and is ongoing until death.

Are you aware that >75% of Christian disagree you on this point?
(I'm not say that this proves that they are right, just asking if you're aware).

Why do you think you can read our thoughts?

Because He's omniscient and omnipotent.

What you call the Kingdom of God is the Mormon church.

Incorrect.

Why are you rudely stating that when I've explained over and over again that Christians are being sanctified?

It would help if you explained your beliefs in this regard.

How many times do Christians have to tell you that we LOVE God?

None. All Christians (including LDS) do. This is very much established.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I do not know the mind of God, nor the ways in which He chooses people or groups of people to do things.

I didn't ask why they were chosen, I asked how. An example from Moses would be the burning bush.

And yes, they were "peers of Moses, Peter, and Paul", for God is not a respector of persons.

This isn't about being a respecter of person, but rather the roles God choose certain people to do. Peter, Paul, Moses all had direct contact with God, were chosen by Him to lead the church and receive His words (which are now recorded as scripture). Do you believe those who wrote the creeds were likewise selected for the same role?

 

[Peter1000]

Can you resurrect yourself as Jesus did?

Being able to resurrect ones self is a corollary of sinlessness. Because he remained sinless and fulfilled his mission (which he could have failed) he was given the power from his God and Father to resurrect himself and others.

I being sinful, will not have the power to resurrect myself, I must have help from Jesus.

Obviously, there are other differences between Jesus and me, however, they all stem from the fact that Jesus chose to remain sinless, where I chose to sin. I boiled it down to that.

 

[Peter1000]

Seriously? That's the only difference between you and Jesus, because Jesus remained sinless? Are you God? Did you create the universe and everything in it? I could go on and on, but this is one of the most blasphemous things I have seen you write.

Your perception is totally skewed. He was not "like us in every way". We are to be like him.

That is the main difference, it all boils down to he chose to remain sinless, I chose to sin.

So here are some corollaries to this proposition:
He chose to be sinless, therefore he has a Godly status. I chose to sin, so I am slowly learning to become like him. If I continue to a higher level and become sinless like him, I will be like him and have Godly status too.

He chose to be sinless, therefore his God and his Father gave him the power to resurrect himself. I chose to sin, therefore I will need Jesus's help to be resurrected. But once resurrected, if I continue to sinlessness, I may be exalted like him and be an exalted person just like him and will have the opportunity to sit with him in his throne and have a Godly status like him.

There are others, but when I say the only difference is that Jesus was sinless, it is the truth, but obviously there are other differences, but it all stems from sinless verses sinful.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I didn't ask why they were chosen, I asked how. An example from Moses would be the burning bush.

God put them in their respective positions to be chosen for a time such as it was. God's method is up to him.

This isn't about being a respecter of person, but rather the roles God choose certain people to do. Peter, Paul, Moses all had direct contact with God, were chosen by Him to lead the church and receive His words (which are now recorded as scripture). Do you believe those who wrote the creeds were likewise selected for the same role?

They were chosen by God through the Holy Spirit in accordance with His will.

 

[Jane_Doe]

God put them in their respective positions to be chosen for a time such as it was. God's method is up to him.



They were chosen by God through the Holy Spirit in accordance with His will.

That does not answer either of my questions.

 

[BigDaddy4]

That does not answer either of my questions.

Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but it does answer the questions posed.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but it does answer the questions posed.

Let's re-phrase things then: I believe that there is no difference between the authority/selection/purpose by God between the prophets/apostles between the following three groups: OT, NT, modern-day. Obviously there are difference between the settings and old vs new covenant).

Do you believe that there is a difference between the OT/NT leaders and the creed writers?

 

[Peter1000]

Unless you are omniscient, you don't know what John knew.

You don't have to be omniscience. You do have to read the whole scripture and take it all into account.

For instance, John in John3:5 says:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John knew this and he wrote down what he knew.

But then in John 3:38 says:
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So in vs 5 he says you must be born of the water and the spirit to be saved, then in vs 38 he says all you have to do to be saved is believe.

It comes down to either:
1) John was drunk when he wrote chapter 3.
2) John knowingly lied when he wrote chapter 3.
3) John knew exactly what he was saying in vs 38 and he was only talking about the beginning of the journey with Jesus, and he absolutely knew there was more to being saved than just believing, having written vs 5 earlier.

You pick which one is right, or give me another alternative.

So it's okay to follow false teachers and you must be baptized into the Mormon church and you need to get married in a Mormon temple?

No, it is not okay to follow false teachers.
Yes, I will say that you must be baptized.
No, you do not need to be married in a Mormon temple to enter the Celestial
K of G. But in order to reach the highest level of the Celestial K of G, you will want to be married for time and all eternity to your wife. You can then experience endless increase.

And then Mormons added a lot of laws and ordinances that are not Christ's commandments.

All the Mormons do is what Jesus Christ tells our prophets to do. If we have added laws and ordinances it is because over the millenniums of time, they were lost or corrupted out of the bible.

That is why there is no clear cut path in the bible for even the most important concept of being saved.

Because of the apostasy, there has been a loss of many plain and precious and necessary doctrines of salvation. Such a loss that we, 2 educated, religious, bible reading adults can't agree on what we have to do to be saved. How insane is that?

How many times is baptism mentioned in the Bible?

I won't reasearch this but I will take a guess that Jesus mentions baptism many times, but not once does he mention 'grace'. Can you show me where Jesus explains the concept of grace without using the name?

Salvation doesn't come is parts. Sanctification begins at salvation and is ongoing until death.

You cannot show me a chapter in the bible that explains to us a clear, start to finish salvation doctrine. You must read all of the words of Jesus and the apostles and then piece together the doctrines of salvation.
You cannot ignore any of them and their words.

Then you have to deal with the biblical discrepancies, such that Paul conflicted with Jesus and James etc,. etc,. etc.

I believe that once you are saved, at the end of your life, you will then be sanctified.
Your general thought I believe is unscriptural.

You can't see what Ephesians 2:1-10 is saying.

Yes, I can see it. Jesus quickens us (which is another way of saying the HS is with us).
Then with this new birth and the HS we walk in all good works which the Father has ordained us to walk in. And it is by grace that we are saved through faith, not of works lest ye boast.

This scripture tells us that by grace we are saved, but also tells us through faith, we do all good works that we have been ordained to walk in.

So obviously we must do good works, faithful works, but not boast because in the end, grace must be added upon us to ensure our salvation.

Why are you rudely stating that when I've explained over and over again that Christians are being sanctified?

I am sorry if I came across rudely, I never want to be rude. So forgive me. I will try to be better.

How many times do Christians have to tell you that we LOVE God?

I believe you love God, and that all Christians love God including Mormons.
I do believe that mainline Christians have a bit of a conflict of interest, because of their 'by grace ye are saved' position. It seems that lots of Christians feel like they do not have to keep the commandments of Jesus because the concept of 'grace' trumps 'keeping the commandments'. Why must we be so nervous about keeping the commandments when 'grace' will make all things right anyway. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

 

[Rescued One]

You don't have to be omniscience. You do have to read the whole scripture and take it all into account.

For instance, John in John3:5 says:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You will notice that baptism isn't mentioned in that chapter. Two births are mentioned: 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John knew this and he wrote down what he knew.

But then in John 3:38 says:
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

So in vs 5 he says you must be born of the water and the spirit to be saved, then in vs 38 he says all you have to do to be saved is believe.

Romans 8
5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

It comes down to either:
1) John was drunk when he wrote chapter 3.
2) John knowingly lied when he wrote chapter 3.
3) John knew exactly what he was saying in vs 38 and he was only talking about the beginning of the journey with Jesus, and he absolutely knew there was more to being saved than just believing, having written vs 5 earlier.

You pick which one is right, or give me another alternative.

No offense, but all of the above are wrong conclusions.

No, it is not okay to follow false teachers.
Yes, I will say that you must be baptized.

Mormons only acknowledge Mormon baptisms.

No, you do not need to be married in a Mormon temple to enter the Celestial
K of G. But in order to reach the highest level of the Celestial K of G, you will want to be married for time and all eternity to your wife. You can then experience endless increase.

Mormonism teaches that only in the highest level will a person belong to the Church of the Firstborn and enjoy the presence of God. You must be sinless to belong to that church. And who wants "endless increase" and marriage to another human in heaven?

In God's presence is "fulness of joy."

All the Mormons do is what Jesus Christ tells our prophets to do. If we have added laws and ordinances it is because over the millenniums of time, they were lost or corrupted out of the bible.

God forbid that anyone should say that!

Proverbs 30
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Deuteronomy 4
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

A loving God gave us His words and the Holy Spirit for our guidance.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

God always intended His word to be our guide:

Psalm 119
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee...

105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

That is why there is no clear cut path in the bible for even the most important concept of being saved.

The Shepherd never leads us astray. We follow Him instead of just anyone. The way to discern truth from error is to hide His word in our hearts.

Because of the apostasy, there has been a loss of many plain and precious and necessary doctrines of salvation. Such a loss that we, 2 educated, religious, bible reading adults can't agree on what we have to do to be saved. How insane is that?

It sounds like what is happening all over the world and has been since time began, even before we had a Bible. Humans don't agree.

I won't reasearch this but I will take a guess that Jesus mentions baptism many times, but not once does he mention 'grace'. Can you show me where Jesus explains the concept of grace without using the name?

Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

And Jesus didn't baptize with water:

Luke 3
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 1
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

________________________________

You cannot show me a chapter in the bible that explains to us a clear, start to finish salvation doctrine. You must read all of the words of Jesus and the apostles and then piece together the doctrines of salvation.
You cannot ignore any of them and their words.

Then you have to deal with the biblical discrepancies, such that Paul conflicted with Jesus and James etc,. etc,. etc.

I believe that once you are saved, at the end of your life, you will then be sanctified.
Your general thought I believe is unscriptural.

Yes, I can see it. Jesus quickens us (which is another way of saying the HS is with us).
Then with this new birth and the HS we walk in all good works which the Father has ordained us to walk in. And it is by grace that we are saved through faith, not of works lest ye boast.

To be quickened is to receive the new birth. The word of God is only clear to whom He makes it clear.

This scripture tells us that by grace we are saved, but also tells us through faith, we do all good works that we have been ordained to walk in.

Correction; The BIBLE tells us that. The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants contradict it.

So obviously we must do good works, faithful works, but not boast because in the end, grace must be added upon us to ensure our salvation.

His mercies are new every morning not just in the end. Without the new birth that passes us from death to life, we can't follow Him or understand His words.

I am sorry if I came across rudely, I never want to be rude. So forgive me. I will try to be better.

Thank you very much. I had already forgiven you.

I believe you love God, and that all Christians love God including Mormons.
I do believe that mainline Christians have a bit of a conflict of interest, because of their 'by grace ye are saved' position. It seems that lots of Christians feel like they do not have to keep the commandments of Jesus because the concept of 'grace' trumps 'keeping the commandments'. Why must we be so nervous about keeping the commandments when 'grace' will make all things right anyway. Just a thought.

No, being saved by grace gives true Christians our love for Him. Love for Christ means we follow Him and you can't follow Him if you're following another master. No man can serve two masters.

Children of Light
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

 

[Rescued One]

...I believe you love God, and that all Christians love God including Mormons.
I do believe that mainline Christians have a bit of a conflict of interest, because of their 'by grace ye are saved' position. It seems that lots of Christians feel like they do not have to keep the commandments of Jesus because the concept of 'grace' trumps 'keeping the commandments'. Why must we be so nervous about keeping the commandments when 'grace' will make all things right anyway. Just a thought.

How do you define Christian?

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that:“they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History- Chapter 1

When I left the LDS church, my bishop became angry and yelled at me. I hadn't said anything harsh to him.

6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.

Really? What about Mormon bishops?

If Methodists, Presbyterians, and Baptists are all Christians, why would they be judged by Joseph Smith? Was he a "better" Christian than all the others?

If all Christians love God, why would Joseph Smith claim that he was told, “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

 

[Peter1000]

Phoebe Ann,

How do you define Christian?

I define Christians the same as the bible defines Christians. See Acts 11:26
"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
So all that call themselves disciples of Christ are known as Christians.
It does not say that 'the disciples (who believe in the Holy Trinity) were called Christians first in Antioch'.

When I left the LDS church, my bishop became angry and yelled at me. I hadn't said anything harsh to him.

I would love to know the name of your bishop, because there is no place for raising ones voice at a time when someone has made a choice to leave the church. It is a time for tears and gentle pleading and prayer.
I have never had an experience of this nature with any of my bishops, they have always been able to say the right words at the right time. So I am sorry this happened to you.

If Methodists, Presbyterians, and Baptists are all Christians, why would they be judged by Joseph Smith? Was he a "better" Christian than all the others?

Jesus Christ chose JS to be the first prophet of the 'Dispensation of the Fullness of Times'. Since the time that JS was chosen for this assignment, all peoples are under his earthly stewardship. ( That is whyJesus instructed him to immediately begin the church missionary program to start going to England, France, Canada, the Hawaiian Islands, and it is why the church today has a vast missionary program that will eventually fill the whole earth.
It will be similar to how the 12 apostles of Jesus will sit on their thrones and judge the entire house of Israel from the beginning (1400 BC) to the end of time.
(Matthew 19:28)

 

[Peter1000]

ignore this post

 

[Rescued One]

Phoebe Ann,
I define Christians the same as the bible defines Christians. See Acts 11:26
"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
So all that call themselves disciples of Christ are known as Christians.
It does not say that 'the disciples (who believe in the Holy Trinity) were called Christians first in Antioch'.

May I kindly suggest that Acts 11:26 is telling us when and where they were first called Christians? It doesn't define who is a Christian.

I would love to know the name of your bishop, because there is no place for raising ones voice at a time when someone has made a choice to leave the church. It is a time for tears and gentle pleading and prayer.
I have never had an experience of this nature with any of my bishops, they have always been able to say the right words at the right time. So I am sorry this happened to you.

Well, I had several other bishops prior to that one, and not one of them yelled at me. I guess not all bishops are perfect. But then, you didn't decide to leave the Mormon church, did you?

Jesus Christ chose JS to be the first prophet of the 'Dispensation of the Fullness of Times'. Since the time that JS was chosen for this assignment, all peoples are under his earthly. ( That is stewardshipwhyJesus instructed him to immediately begin the church missionary program to start going to England, France, Canada, the Hawaiian Islands, and it is why the church today has a vast missionary program that will eventually fill the whole earth.
It will be similar to how the 12 apostles of Jesus will sit on their thrones and judge the entire house of Israel from the beginning (1400 BC) to the end of time.
(Matthew 19:28)

I'm talking about his derogatory statements in Joseph Smith History 1. Was he judging Christians or non-Christians?

 

[Jane_Doe]

May I kindly suggest that Acts 11:26 is telling us when and where they were first called Christians? It doesn't define who is a Christian.

Actually is does: Christian = disciple of Christ.

Well, I had several other bishops prior to that one, and not one of them yelled at me. I guess not all bishops are perfect. But then, you didn't decide to leave the Mormon church, did you?

I did. No one yelled at me.

 

[Peter1000]

You will notice that baptism isn't mentioned in that chapter. Two births are mentioned: 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Mormons, as you know, interpret 'born of the water' as full immersion baptism. This interpretation has biblical support as baptism is explained in other scriptures in the bible as putting your body into a watery grave, and then being reborn (rebirth) again as a new person in Jesus Christ.
You, OTOH, interpret 'born of the water' as the first birth from the womb. This concept has no biblical support, and I believe has flimsy logic, mainly because the liquid in the womb is not just water, there are lots of elements in the womb fluid. It is called amniotic fluid, and not water, because it is made up of many elements including baby's sluffed skin. Near the end of the pregnancy and your supposed first baptism is to take place, the amniotic fluid is mostly made up of fetal urine.
(see What is Amniotic Fluid Made Of?)

So you need to rethink this doctrine again, and come up with the right interpretation, one that can be supported by the bible.

Mormonism teaches that only in the highest level will a person belong to the Church of the Firstborn and enjoy the presence of God. You must be sinless to belong to that church. And who wants "endless increase" and marriage to another human in heaven?

This is correct and you must be sinless to be in this congregation. Of course if you have overcome this world and are resurrected and exalted, you will be just like your joint-heir Jesus, which = sinless.

If you wish to stay stagnant for the eternities, then so be it. You will find that after 10M years that staying in 1 place is going to drive you crazy. That's why they say those that do not go to heaven will weep and wail and gnash their teeth and curse God.
If you are not increasing, you are damned from moving forward or advancing. That is why we call a person that goes to hell, damned. He has no increase, but will remain stagnant for ever. I do not want to be one of these people.

You do not need to be married to be in the Celestial K of G. You will be in a lower division than those that are married, but you can enjoy the presence of God even though you are not married.

God always intended His word to be our guide:

The bible is certainly 1 guide, but the reason for Apostles and Prophets was to be living guides, who are in touch with Jesus and the HS to lead and guide the church. So don't forget that Apostles and Prophets were important guides for Jesus and also the HS was sent to guide the leaders of the church as well as individual members of the church, so they can have personal access to Jesus for their own lives.

To be quickened is to receive the new birth. The word of God is only clear to whom He makes it clear.

To be quickened does mean new birth. It also means at death your body is quickened, which is other words for your spirit leaves your flesh body and goes to the world of spirits to wait for the resurrection, when the spirit and the flesh body are reunited for ever.

And Jesus didn't baptize with water:

From what we know, Jesus did not baptize, but his apostles did the baptizing under his supervision.

Although Jesus did not baptize, he was baptized by full immersion by John the Baptist. You cannot get away from baptism being necessary for salvation.

No, being saved by grace gives true Christians our love for Him. Love for Christ means we follow Him and you can't follow Him if you're following another master. No man can serve two masters.

Of course you are right. But if you are saying this to me because I believe JS is a prophet of God, and I follow him because he received instruction from Jesus, you have to be careful denying me my prophet, because you follow Luther and the reformers. Have you ever read a book about the reformation and Luther and the leaders of the reformation? You follow them as much as I follow JS. So we both follow men who follow Jesus. You follow reformers, I follow restorers.

 

[Peter1000]

May I kindly suggest that Acts 11:26 is telling us when and where they were first called Christians? It doesn't define who is a Christian.

Does a disciple of Christ = a follower of Christ?
The answer is obviously yes. So the qualification to be a Christian is to be a disciple/follower of Christ.

I am a disciple/follower of Christ, therefore I am a
Christian. You are a disciple/follower of Christ, therefore you are a Christian, even though we veiw things differently, we are still disciples/followers of Christ.

Simple definition, simple to know who is a Christian, unless you add to the definition like this: And the disciples of Christ who believe in the Triune God were first called Christians at Antioch. Now you have created a whole new dimension that is not only unfair, but is unbiblical.

I'm talking about his derogatory statements in Joseph Smith History 1. Was he judging Christians or non-Christians?

I don't know the statements you are referring to. I know he was fairly verbally harsh on Christians and non-Christians who were persecuting him and the church.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons, as you know, interpret 'born of the water' as full immersion baptism. This interpretation has biblical support as baptism is explained in other scriptures in the bible as putting your body into a watery grave, and then being reborn (rebirth) again as a new person in Jesus Christ.
You, OTOH, interpret 'born of the water' as the first birth from the womb. This concept has no biblical support, and I believe has flimsy logic, mainly because the liquid in the womb is not just water, there are lots of elements in the womb fluid. It is called amniotic fluid, and not water, because it is made up of many elements including baby's sluffed skin. Near the end of the pregnancy and your supposed first baptism is to take place, the amniotic fluid is mostly made up of fetal urine.
(see What is Amniotic Fluid Made Of?)

Show me the evidence from the time of Jesus' ministry that scientists knew what to call amniotic fluid.

So you need to rethink this doctrine again, and come up with the right interpretation, one that can be supported by the bible.

This is correct and you must be sinless to be in this congregation. Of course if you have overcome this world and are resurrected and exalted, you will be just like your joint-heir Jesus, which = sinless.

If you wish to stay stagnant for the eternities, then so be it. You will find that after 10M years that staying in 1 place is going to drive you crazy. That's why they say those that do not go to heaven will weep and wail and gnash their teeth and curse God.
If you are not increasing, you are damned from moving forward or advancing. That is why we call a person that goes to hell, damned. He has no increase, but will remain stagnant for ever. I do not want to be one of these people.

Your focus seems to be on yourself.

It is impossible to think of living in the Presence of God as a state of being stagnant when you are experiencing fulness of joy:

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Which blessings are missing?

You do not need to be married to be in the Celestial K of G. You will be in a lower division than those that are married, but you can enjoy the presence of God even though you are not married.

In your dreams. Those in the lower levels have immortality only and do not have eternal life.

The bible is certainly 1 guide, but the reason for Apostles and Prophets was to be living guides, who are in touch with Jesus and the HS to lead and guide the church. So don't forget that Apostles and Prophets were important guides for Jesus and also the HS was sent to guide the leaders of the church as well as individual members of the church, so they can have personal access to Jesus for their own lives.

The Holy Spirit is a living guide. The sheep have access to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

To be quickened does mean new birth. It also means at death your body is quickened, which is other words for your spirit leaves your flesh body and goes to the world of spirits to wait for the resurrection, when the spirit and the flesh body are reunited for ever.

From what we know, Jesus did not baptize, but his apostles did the baptizing under his supervision.

Although Jesus did not baptize, he was baptized by full immersion by John the Baptist. You cannot get away from baptism being necessary for salvation.

Jesus did not need salvation; sinners do.

Of course you are right. But if you are saying this to me because I believe JS is a prophet of God, and I follow him because he received instruction from Jesus, you have to be careful denying me my prophet, because you follow Luther and the reformers. Have you ever read a book about the reformation and Luther and the leaders of the reformation? You follow them as much as I follow JS. So we both follow men who follow Jesus. You follow reformers, I follow restorers.

Joseph Smith was not a follower if Jesus:
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . "
History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409


Please show me the biblical teaching that says a man must be born three times.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We are in the flesh or in the Spirit. We are told to walk in the Spirit. Without the Spirit we can't walk in the Spirit.

Titus 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Show me the evidence that from the time of Jesus' ministry that scientists knew what to call amniotic fluid.

Even primitive men knew of amniotic fluid: it is an obvious part of birth.