LDS What is the reward?

[JacksBratt]

In Heb 11 he talks about all the different faithful men and women of the OT and then he says “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise”

The writer here mentions “the promise’ several times
Heb 8
“6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 9:15
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So I’m saying even though they lived by faith they did not have the promise of eternal inheritance.

BUT Jesus said

John 5:46
“For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.”

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

They knew Jesus was coming, the first covenant was a dead covenant but with it’s sacrifices it pointed to Christ and his final sacrifice.

Now going back to Heb 11 he finishes with

“39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Why because Peter had been given the power to bind on earth that which is bound in heaven. They were doing the baptisms of the dead which Paul spoke of in Cor 15.

I am sorry, but I really don't follow what you are trying to say here.

If you are asking me to prove that the Bible states, somewhere, that "there will now be no more prophets or apostles after Christ ascends to heaven"...
I cannot.

However, do you believe that the Bible is incomplete?
Do you believe that there is something that God needs to add that He left out?
Do you believe that all those people, who followed the KJV of the Bible, before JS came along, should get a re-do and be reconsidered due to the fact that the game has changed?
Can they stand before our Lord and say "ya, but, we didn't know the stuff you got JS to write down... that's not fair, I call foul" and Jesus is going to say "shucks, you're right".

And, by the way, you have neglected to tell me....

1/ If not in and by the biblical scriptures, how has God told that anything is true? In part C of your answers you stated "Believing something because God said it." (post #194)Where, when and how did He say it?

2/Who are the men and women who are qualified to add to the canon?

3/ How or who accredits them with this ability and honor and validates their work?

4/ A bonus question. What is in the Book of Mormon that is missing or incorrect in the Holy Bible.

 

[JacksBratt]

You explain how God became God, and don't tell me that God has always been God.

Sorry, but, if you believe the canon, God has always been God. I cannot explain it. It is beyond my earthly comprehension ability. But, God said it, so it is truth.

And who told JS how God became God? God did.

So, God told every living soul that can read that He always was, is, and always will be. As Phoebe Ann posted:

Psalm 90
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

But He decided that He should tell Joseph Smith the real story?

The key to understanding this concept is that Jesus was not fully a God until he was resurrected with a perfect and exalted body of flesh and bones, just like his Father, God the Father had. The resurrection and the crowning glory of exaltation (the final process of Godhood) cannot happen until after the resurrection.

You do realize that Jesus was the one who created everything, including the earth in Genesis 1........... right?

You know, when all that existed was "GOD"? Jesus was there. Jesus created everything and nothing was created that was not created by Him?

 

[JacksBratt]

In Heb 11 he talks about all the different faithful men and women of the OT and then he says “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise”

The writer here mentions “the promise’ several times
Heb 8
“6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 9:15
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So I’m saying even though they lived by faith they did not have the promise of eternal inheritance.

The first covenant was the one given to Abraham. This had flaws but it had to do until the second covenant which was the death and resurrection of Christ.

If Christ had not came and been crucified and risen on the third day.... even the people who lived before this time, to the beginning of the history of mankind, could not be saved.

All the righteous people or ones seeking to be righteous. The ones who believed in God and the hope of a salvation, from Adam to the end of the tribulation that is coming, ALL of mankind are saved by Christs sacrifice.

Without it, there would be no way anyone could claim to be worthy. Only by the shed blood can we, anyone, be pardoned.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It is ONLY our age, the age of Grace, where we can know the savior. Know who He is, what He did, and accept His sacrifice for us. It is only our age that has direct contact to our creator without an intermediary person, priest, prophet or any other man above other men.

Yes, we can go to an elder or church leader for prayer and guidance. However, it is not necessary.

I need no man to intercede for me when going to my creator, God, Lord and Savior.

Is this not a change???? Yes.

Is this not different from any other age??? Yes.

Does this mean God has changed???? Not at ALL

Clarification on LDS beliefs here: any earthly leader is not an "intercessor". They don't come stop us from interacting directly with God, they don't have any saving roll, etc. Rather, they are servants of God, sent about His business, which can include the roll of mouth piece. This is clearly Biblical, including post-ascension times. An example is Paul.

Name one human with the qualifications to be a new apostle.
Name one human with the qualifications to write new scripture.
State any need, on this earth, for new scripture.

God chooses you = the qualifications of being a old/new apostle.
God gives it new scripture = the qualifications for being old/new scripture.
Need = God of many masteries decided to give it.

Scripture is God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired, words of God to His creation.....

Agreed.

Name or show me one scrap of any written words, since the time of Christ and His story, that even comes close....

I did- Paul. An unlikely person chooses by God after Christ's ascension to be His mouth piece and receive new scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I understand that, yet you state "how the Mormons define something" and don't even use the Mormon Bible. This, to me just means that it is one part of the Mormon theology that is in sync with the truth of the Bible. Nothing more.

"The Mormon Bible" = the KJV. The exact same Bible you use.

 

[NYCGuy]

Clarification on LDS beliefs here: any earthly leader is not an "intercessor". They don't come stop us from interacting directly with God, they don't have any saving roll, etc. Rather, they are servants of God, sent about His business, which can include the roll of mouth piece. This is clearly Biblical, including post-ascension times. An example is Paul.


God chooses you = the qualifications of being a old/new apostle.
God gives it new scripture = the qualifications for being old/new scripture.
Need = God of many masteries decided to give it.

Agreed.

I did- Paul. An unlikely person chooses by God after Christ's ascension to be His mouth piece and receive new scripture.

Mormons believe that Paul was the head of the Church?

 

[Jane_Doe]

I am sorry, but I really don't follow what you are trying to say here.

If you are asking me to prove that the Bible states, somewhere, that "there will now be no more prophets or apostles after Christ ascends to heaven"...
I cannot.

Then on what Biblical grounds do you argue that we should not have prophets and apostles today?

However, do you believe that the Bible is incomplete?

All that should be in the Bible is in the Bible. However, there are more Truth and wonders of God than what is contained in those limited pages.

Do you believe that there is something that God needs to add that He left out?

I am confused by this question. If your earthly father wrote you a loving letter, and then wrote you another one, would you throw the second one away because it was unnecessary? Do you the existence of the book of Matthew mean that the books of Mark, Luke, and John are unnecessary? That's effectively what you're asking.

Do you believe that all those people, who followed the KJV of the Bible, before JS came along, should get a re-do and be reconsidered due to the fact that the game has changed?

I'm unsure what you're asking here. Could you clarify?

Can they stand before our Lord and say "ya, but, we didn't know the stuff you got JS to write down... that's not fair, I call foul" and Jesus is going to say "shucks, you're right".

This question does not make sense. It's the equivalent of saying "ya, but, we didn't know the stuff you got Paul to write down... that's not fair, I call foul" and Jesus is going to say "shucks, you're right".

1/ If not in and by the biblical scriptures, how has God told that anything is true? In part C of your answers you stated "Believing something because God said it." (post #194)Where, when and how did He say it?

I have attempted to many times, but you seem admemnt cling to the belief that Christ accensend and the God went mute. No- He lives! He speaks! He still leads His people as a whole! He still speaks to each individually.

2/Who are the men and women who are qualified to add to the canon?

Those which God selects and gives them scripture to write down (they scribe, He authors). This is how it has always been and continues today.

3/ How or who accredits them with this ability and honor and validates their work?

God.
If you or any other person wants validation of this ask Him directly. Not sinners, but God.

4/ A bonus question. What is in the Book of Mormon that is missing or incorrect in the Holy Bible.

If you like I will go into this, but did my example of Mark/Luke/Matthew/John earlier this post make sense?

 

[Jane_Doe]

The first covenant was the one given to Abraham. This had flaws but it had to do until the second covenant which was the death and resurrection of Christ.

If Christ had not came and been crucified and risen on the third day.... even the people who lived before this time, to the beginning of the history of mankind, could not be saved.

All the righteous people or ones seeking to be righteous. The ones who believed in God and the hope of a salvation, from Adam to the end of the tribulation that is coming, ALL of mankind are saved by Christs sacrifice.

Without it, there would be no way anyone could claim to be worthy. Only by the shed blood can we, anyone, be pardoned.

LDS very much agree with all of this.

 

[JacksBratt]

Clarification on LDS beliefs here: any earthly leader is not an "intercessor". They don't come stop us from interacting directly with God, they don't have any saving roll, etc. Rather, they are servants of God, sent about His business, which can include the roll of mouth piece. This is clearly Biblical, including post-ascension times. An example is Paul.


God chooses you = the qualifications of being a old/new apostle.
God gives it new scripture = the qualifications for being old/new scripture.
Need = God of many masteries decided to give it.

Agreed.

I did- Paul. An unlikely person chooses by God after Christ's ascension to be His mouth piece and receive new scripture.

And...........Paul's work is in the canon. Is it not?

Name someone after the 1800's and give reasons for their qualifications.

 

[Jane_Doe]

And...........Paul's work is in the canon. Is it not?

Yes, so clearly you believe God can pick a person to be His spokesman and scribe new scripture.

Name someone after the 1800's and give reasons for their qualifications.

The same qualifications for every other spokesman: God picked them.

 

[toLiJC]

The word God in Hebrew is Elohim and it is plural. My theory is that each galaxy is created by different families of Gods. They are all interrelated going back to the one supreme God who started creation.

Another theory in Mormonism is there is no beginning per se but one eternal round, no beginning and no end. That blows my finite mind.

it is written there is but one God, as for the Son of God, it is more likely that there be somehow one Jesus Christ for every planet than there be many Gods, Heavenly Fathers, if there is more than one planet like this in the infinite universe at all

each cycle has a beginning and end, otherwise it won't be a cycle - it is like a constantly rotating wheel, at first glance, it seems as if the process of wheel's rotation has no beginning and end, but actually the wheel makes full revolutions, though without stopping or decelerating, and in order that the revolutions of such a wheel can be read, there is a need of some designation of a beginning and end, that's why it is not possible that there be no beginning and end, and, as it is written in the Bible, there are consecutive eternities

Blessings

 

[toLiJC]

One simple verse...
John 1:1-3King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All things were made by Him. Period. We have not existed for eternity past, as God has.

If you want to state that our souls, the souls of all mankind, the souls of everyone who has lived and will lived, existed for eternity past... you must prove such a statement.

People seem to think that they can make such claims and, since the bible doesn't, expressly, say it wasn't so... that it they can claim that it actually was so or is so.....Nope, prove it, using scripture.

you cited it, "any thing made that was made", i.e. it is possible that there be also things that were not made/created, which is why St John testified that He means 'any thing made that was made'

as for the existence of scriptural proof, not a little biblical witness to these things was already presented in my previous posts, for example Genesis 1st chapter where you can read how the space (in which the "heaven" and the "earth" are situated), the "darkness" and the "water(s)" are presented as things that were not created but existed even before God started to create for the first time since the beginning of this eternity

Really? Hmm can you show me where this is stated, backed up, confirmed?

This concept is an earthly, man made concept. Who said this?

I cannot even follow the rest of your post... my apologies.

don't you know that indefinitely existing beings/things are only the ones that have no beginning of their existence?!, because if any being/thing has a beginning of their existence, then it is certain that being/thing has not existed since beginninglessness of the time's infinity without going through a total end of their existence, which indicates there is no guarantee that they will continue existing to endlessness of the time's infinity without going through a total end of their existence

Blessings

 

[withwonderingawe]

However, do you believe that the Bible is incomplete?
Do you believe that there is something that God needs to add that He left out?

Incomplete.....no I don't think of it as incomplete. I believe some of it has been misinterpreted or misunderstood and some knowledge lost as in the priesthood, eternal marriage. Even who God is. I mean the Bible calls God a he and referrers to him as a Father yet the Christian world believes God is an "it" .

Back 20 years ago I was witnessed to by a sweet Christian lady and it made me really study the Bible. I took the different doctrines which Joseph Smith taught and began comparing them to the Bible. I created my own topical guide, I had a Strongs Bible concordance and a Barclay Bible. I also called several different ministers and just asked questions so I could compare our beliefs. I tried to understand the Trinity which was difficult because I did not comprehended an immaterial substance it was not even in my vocabulary. When I read the Athanasian Creed and it called God incomprehensible John 1 came into my mind " 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." I rejected the Trinity right there. I looked up every passage there was on baptism and came to the conclusion it was necessary for salvation. I spent a great deal of time reading Hebrews and trying to understand the priesthood. When all was said and done I thanked this lady for making me a better Christian and a stronger Mormon. The truths of the Gospel are in there one just has to know what your looking for.

Do you believe that all those people, who followed the KJV of the Bible, before JS came along, should get a re-do and be reconsidered due to the fact that the game has changed?

Each person will be judged by the light which they received and not beyond their knowledge. Their baptisms will be done and they will have a chance to accept further light and knowledge.

 

[withwonderingawe]

(post #194)Where, when and how did He say it?

that was Jane's posting I'll let her answer it.

 

[withwonderingawe]

4/ A bonus question. What is in the Book of Mormon that is missing or incorrect in the Holy Bible.

In the Book of Either (just after the Tower) the prophet sees the finger of the Lord and he is astonished because he sees the Lord is flesh and blood but the Lord explains

“Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood;”

and then the Lord pulls the veil back and he see the spirit Yahweh

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

To me it sounds like a vision of something to come in the future and from this we learn that a spirit looks very much like a man. Joseph called it pure spirit.

Now it’s not that the Bible does not have the same thing, Moses spoke to Yahweh face to face as a man speaks to his friend, but the Lord explains himself more.

The most important item is of course the atonement, the Book of Mormon simply has a more clear explanation of why it was needed.

 

[JacksBratt]

you cited it, "any thing made that was made", i.e. it is possible that there be also things that were not made/created, which is why St John testified that He means 'any thing made that was made'

as for the existence of scriptural proof, not a little biblical witness to these things was already presented in my previous posts, for example Genesis 1st chapter where you can read how the space (in which the "heaven" and the "earth" are situated), the "darkness" and the "water(s)" are presented as things that were not created but existed even before God started to create for the first time since the beginning of this eternity

When John states that "anything made that was made", he is basically trying to say everything except God. Which includes Jesus, God the Father and The Holy spirit.
John is trying to emphasize that everything means every single thing.

You do know that Jesus had already created the angels and that the fall of Lucifer had already taken place, at the time of Genesis 1, don't you?

don't you know that indefinitely existing beings/things are only the ones that have no beginning of their existence?!

Is God not capable of anything? There is nothing God cannot do. One thing God can do is create eternal beings that have a beginning but have no end.

What rule book are you using to claim such a thing anyway? Where are these rules written, formed, controlled and monitored?

The only one being that could have power over such "laws", if they even did exist, is God.

, because if any being/thing has a beginning of their existence, then it is certain that being/thing has not existed since beginninglessness of the time's infinity without going through a total end of their existence, which indicates there is no guarantee that they will continue existing to endlessness of the time's infinity without going through a total end of their existence

Blessings

Do you make this stuff up as you go? Your "IF / Then" statements have no basis for validity.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes, so clearly you believe God can pick a person to be His spokesman and scribe new scripture.

Paul's work has withstood the validation, discernment, scrutiny, and other due process that has placed it in the canon. Nothing, no writings by anyone since this qualifies. His work is not new. It is part of the living word of God.

The same qualifications for every other spokesman: God picked them.

Do you have a Name?

Or not?

Can you tell me what would have to be expected of anyone that, since the time of Christ, wrote words down and claimed them to be extensions of the canonized scripture, and actual words of God? What would they have to do in order to be considered valid and acceptable words from God?

You say that we should accept these new apostles. Name one, or two, and give their credentials.

 

[JacksBratt]

Incomplete.....no I don't think of it as incomplete.

Good, then we have no need of anything more. No more new words from God. It is complete and I agree.

I believe some of it has been misinterpreted or misunderstood and some knowledge lost as in the priesthood, eternal marriage. Even who God is. I mean the Bible calls God a he and referrers to him as a Father yet the Christian world believes God is an "it" .

Are you saying that marriage is eternal? When it is distinctly stated "till death do us part". And in the days of Christ if a brother died his other brother should marry his widow.... correct?

You will never hear anyone from my church or a church that I consider a true church of God, call God an "it".

If I heard that in my church, my next move would be to my car and then to find a new church.

Back 20 years ago I was witnessed to by a sweet Christian lady and it made me really study the Bible. I took the different doctrines which Joseph Smith taught and began comparing them to the Bible. I created my own topical guide, I had a Strongs Bible concordance and a Barclay Bible. I also called several different ministers and just asked questions so I could compare our beliefs. I tried to understand the Trinity which was difficult because I did not comprehended an immaterial substance it was not even in my vocabulary. When I read the Athanasian Creed and it called God incomprehensible John 1 came into my mind " 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." I rejected the Trinity right there. I looked up every passage there was on baptism and came to the conclusion it was necessary for salvation. I spent a great deal of time reading Hebrews and trying to understand the priesthood. When all was said and done I thanked this lady for making me a better Christian and a stronger Mormon. The truths of the Gospel are in there one just has to know what your looking for.

That is your choice and the dangers of reading and studying the work of the greatest deceiver of all time.... Satan. He will give a deception that is 99.99999% truth and then hang you on that 0.00001% of it that is a lie.

Each person will be judged by the light which they received and not beyond their knowledge. Their baptisms will be done and they will have a chance to accept further light and knowledge.

Everyone will be judge by the simple reality of whether they accepted or rejected Christ as their savior. They will be tried by fire which will consume any unrighteousness in them. Many will be left with nothing but their soul and it's eternal life in paradise.

There will be no "chance" to accept further light and knowledge. We will all be given the knowledge of the universe. All will be revealed. All will be seen, even that which is unseen.

 

[JacksBratt]

In the Book of Either (just after the Tower) the prophet sees the finger of the Lord and he is astonished because he sees the Lord is flesh and blood but the Lord explains

“Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood;”

and then the Lord pulls the veil back and he see the spirit Yahweh

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

To me it sounds like a vision of something to come in the future and from this we learn that a spirit looks very much like a man. Joseph called it pure spirit.

Now it’s not that the Bible does not have the same thing, Moses spoke to Yahweh face to face as a man speaks to his friend, but the Lord explains himself more.

The most important item is of course the atonement, the Book of Mormon simply has a more clear explanation of why it was needed.

Ya, I don't put any stake in anything written in that book. You lost me after The book of Either just after the Tower.

Sorry, no one has looked upon the face of God and lived.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Ya, I don't put any stake in anything written in that book. You lost me after The book of Either just after the Tower.

Sorry, no one has looked upon the face of God and lived.

So Moses Lied about speaking to God face to face?