What is the Reformed understanding about experience of the Holy Spirit

[dms1972]

Hi again,

I wanted to ask about how experience of the Holy Spirit is understood by reformed christians. Is it the case that they say believers don't have direct or immediate experience of the Holy Spirit, or how is it understood? I just heard years ago there was a difference on this between Reformed and Pentecostal believers in how its understood. Just seeking to understand it again.

 

[Hammster]

We don’t believe that there’s an “experience” like Pentecostals do. He doesn’t draw attention to Himself, but points to Christ. He does work in us, though, in sanctification.

 

[dms1972]

Ok, thanks Hammster, because I had a thought about it years ago but wasn't sure really how Pentecostals understood it, I think many would though affirm that their worship is focused on Jesus Christ.

He doesn't work in us, in sanctification, did I get you right, or was that a typo?

Would it be correct to say the Holy Spirit works more at a level below consciousness, and through or with or after the Word is preached? Its just I have had considerable difficulties with understanding my spiritual experience sometimes, and being sure its christian. Since then I have sought to understand things better theologically, and rely a good bit on Donald Bloesch's Theology of Word and Spirit / Christian Foundations series.

 

[Hammster]

Ok, thanks Hammster, because I had a thought about it years ago but wasn't sure really how Pentecostals understood it, I think many would though affirm that their worship is focused on Jesus Christ.

He doesn't work in us, in sanctification, did I get you right, or was that a typo?

Would it be correct to say the Holy Spirit works more at a level below consciousness, and through or with or after the Word is preached? Its just I have had considerable difficulties with understanding my spiritual experience sometimes, and being sure its christian. Since then I have sought to understand things better theologically, and rely a good bit on Donald Bloesch's Theology of Word and Spirit / Christian Foundations series.

It was a typo.

They may say that they focus on Christ, but look at their writings and see how much focus they put on the Spirit, and whether He’s manifested in us.

 

[dms1972]

Thanks, I thought it was a probably a typo.

 

[dms1972]

It depends I suppose which writings you refer to, but I take your point as I haven't read a lot of pentecostal authors, some may be more balanced than others.

 

[dms1972]

I just find I struggle with the experience I have in some pentecostal services. I wish i could articulate it but it was a while ago. On the other hand when I went to a Free Presbyterian church here years ago, I had a somewhat different experience like a shift in attitude toward The Bible was coming over me.

 

[Hammster]

I just find I struggle with the experience I have in some pentecostal services. I wish i could articulate it but it was a while ago. On the other hand when I went to a Free Presbyterian church here years ago, I had a somewhat different experience like a shift in attitude toward The Bible was coming over me.

Why? What did they do differently?

 

[dms1972]

Oh sorry, I not sure i understood your reply the first time I read it.

I think the emphasis is just different. I mean the congregations also differed in that that particular Elim Pentecostal church was more into newer worship songs and the praise band sort of led the service for a bit, rather than the minister calling out the hymns. It was a while ago so I cannot remember a lot more about the service.

 

[The Righterzpen]

In regards to your question about "experience" of the Holy Spirit from the perspective of myself who is a Cessationist: I would describe that as a form of awareness more than I'd say it is a "feeling" or "experience".

My understanding of God's presence has always come in a series of "awakenings". Suddenly there were realities that I understood existed that I either didn't understand, or weren't aware of prior. (Not sure if that makes a lot of sense?) It's not a "magical" or superstitious experience / emotionally driven awareness. It's a more grounded and often practical revelation of the reality of God's presence.

Not to say that this revelation of God's presence is just an intellectual experience and doesn't at times elicit emotions. It can, it does and it has; but it's a separate awareness than these other realities. The presence of the Holy Spirit is always "there"; despite whether or not I'm "thinking about it". It's a "raised to life" type of awareness. And it's noticeable because I remember what it was like to be dead.

It's an awakening that has affected everything. It affects how I think, how I feel, what I do, my understanding and perception of myself as well as what's going on in the world around me. It's a "drawing" / "type of compulsion" that at this point in my life; causes me to primarily pray for wisdom and strength to "do the next thing in front of me". That's the practicality of what ever God may be calling me to do in that moment; ends up working out His will in my life.

It's a complex form of existence; that affects everything about me. - I think is the best way I can describe it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Oh sorry, I not sure i understood your reply the first time I read it.

I think the emphasis is just different. I mean the congregations also differed in that that particular Elim Pentecostal church was more into newer worship songs and the praise band sort of led the service for a bit, rather than the minister calling out the hymns. It was a while ago so I cannot remember a lot more about the service.

Ok, thanks Hammster, because I had a thought about it years ago but wasn't sure really how Pentecostals understood it, I think many would though affirm that their worship is focused on Jesus Christ.
[cut]

Would it be correct to say the Holy Spirit works more at a level below consciousness, and through or with or after the Word is preached? Its just I have had considerable difficulties with understanding my spiritual experience sometimes, and being sure its christian. Since then I have sought to understand things better theologically, and rely a good bit on Donald Bloesch's Theology of Word and Spirit / Christian Foundations series.

It is more obvious to the believer, I suppose, the longer one believes (or at least this has been my experience), not that there is some subconscious thing nor conscious nor anything else that we can point to as definable, except that the only good we are or do is the Spirit of God doing it in us. And that is also what we read in Scripture, in such passages as: "For God is the [One] working in you both to will and to work according to [His] good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13, "Berean Literal" rendition)

This is not simply that God instructs and opens a way for us, nor even that he must depend on OUR decision to obey or to do what is good or right or expedient for eternal values, nor anything else that motivates us, as though what WE do is the main thing. The main thing, from creation to consummation, is what God is doing.

Sanctification, in my opinion, (and my apologies to anyone for how this might sound as though obedience is unimportant —it most certainly is not unimportant) is not as much about becoming Christlike in degree of obedience to conscience nor even in understanding and walking according to the Spirit's 'promptings' (or whatever construction you might use to define "Godliness") but about becoming Christlike in one-ness with Him. It is HIM doing in us, not just through us. To put it as simply as I know how, crass as it may come across, God is more interested in us coming to know him than in our consistent obedience to him.

(And yes, that disobedience is more painful to me than I can even let myself feel, yet produces the admiration and gratitude befitting it, that God would take me through this at HIS cost, and show me only a little of his pain, and that for HIS own sake!)

This is why, (in my case, at least), he daily reminds me of my weakness, immaturity, rebellion, self-importance and vanity, by showing me my disobedience. (Among other reasons) he does this to show me my desperate need for him. And to show me that the only good in me is Christ.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hi again,

I wanted to ask about how experience of the Holy Spirit is understood by reformed christians. Is it the case that they say believers don't have direct or immediate experience of the Holy Spirit, or how is it understood? I just heard years ago there was a difference on this between Reformed and Pentecostal believers in how its understood. Just seeking to understand it again.

Paul Washer did a sermon to Christians about the Holy Spirit and it's a view of the Holy Spirit that as a reformed, Spirit filled believer I agree with.

Every denomination has different views, many are cessationist but not all are total cessationist. It's a different view perhaps, if you're interested.

 

[All Becomes New]

Read Johnathan Edwards.

There are some Reformed folks who do believe in the sign gifts. Church history is not silent on this fact either.

 

[FireDragon76]

Pentecostals have a different Pneumatology from traditional Reformed theology and piety. Traditional Reformed religion is focused on the role of the Holy Spirit in creating a covenanted people in the Church through the ordinary means of grace:

"He bestows upon us his Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races" (UCC Statement of Faith)

In contrast, Pentecostalism is more subjectivist and individualistic, with a much lower view of the Church and often non-existent sacramentology. The fruits of conversion that Pentecostals are looking for are often very different from what traditional Reformed piety points to (Jame 1:27).

 

[ARBITER01]

Paul Washer did a sermon to Christians about the Holy Spirit and it's a view of the Holy Spirit that as a reformed, Spirit filled believer I agree with.

Every denomination has different views, many are cessationist but not all are total cessationist. It's a different view perhaps, if you're interested.

Washer is interesting.

You can't have the filling and power of GOD without the gifts and the fruits. There's a process in this that he has yet to figure out it seems.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Washer is interesting.

You can't have the filling and power of GOD without the gifts and the fruits. There's a process in this that he has yet to figure out it seems.

"Is Saul also among the prophets?"

 

[ARBITER01]

"Is Saul also among the prophets?"

I'm not sure I understand the reference.

Washer is correct in his subject. We do need it to be GOD operating through us and in us or we will grind down to nothing, it's just his ideas on how he wants it that go outside of the example of Jesus.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm not sure I understand the reference.

Washer is correct in his subject. We do need it to be GOD operating through us and in us or we will grind down to nothing, it's just his ideas on how he wants it that go outside of the example of Jesus.

I didn't say otherwise, concerning believers. My point was that even [rejected] Saul was 'inhabited' (for a time and for a purpose) by the Spirit of God, who can and will do as it will, unaccountable to us, unlike your statement:
ARBITER01 said:
You can't have the filling and power of GOD without the gifts and the fruits. There's a process in this that he has yet to figure out it seems.

I know of no reason to think that King Saul had the "gifts and the fruits of the Spirit", but for a short time, it seems, he had some degree of the 'filling' and power of God, quite apart from regeneration and salvation and faith. (1 Samuel 19:11-24)

 

[ARBITER01]

I didn't say otherwise, concerning believers. My point was that even [rejected] Saul was 'inhabited' (for a time and for a purpose) by the Spirit of God, who can and will do as it will, unaccountable to us, unlike your statement:
ARBITER01 said:
You can't have the filling and power of GOD without the gifts and the fruits. There's a process in this that he has yet to figure out it seems.

I know of no reason to think that King Saul had the "gifts and the fruits of the Spirit", but for a short time, it seems, he had some degree of the 'filling' and power of God, quite apart from regeneration and salvation and faith. (1 Samuel 19:11-24)

I would look at how he was prophesying over in the book of Samuel. As you said, he had the filling with the gifts (the gift of prophesying) and such for a period of time, but Saul did not want to be obedient to GOD.

Washer wants to be clothed in the power of GOD but continue to downplay and denigrate Charismatics and Pentecostals. I'm sorry, but the power of GOD is not for us, it's for GOD to witness through us. We are to be witnesses "of Him."

EDIT: I really don't want to take the thread off topic by talking about Washer and his ideas.

 

[moonbeam]

In regards to your question about "experience" of the Holy Spirit from the perspective of myself who is a Cessationist: I would describe that as a form of awareness more than I'd say it is a "feeling" or "experience".

My understanding of God's presence has always come in a series of "awakenings". Suddenly there were realities that I understood existed that I either didn't understand, or weren't aware of prior. (Not sure if that makes a lot of sense?) It's not a "magical" or superstitious experience / emotionally driven awareness. It's a more grounded and often practical revelation of the reality of God's presence.

Not to say that this revelation of God's presence is just an intellectual experience and doesn't at times elicit emotions. It can, it does and it has; but it's a separate awareness than these other realities. The presence of the Holy Spirit is always "there"; despite whether or not I'm "thinking about it". It's a "raised to life" type of awareness. And it's noticeable because I remember what it was like to be dead.

It's an awakening that has affected everything. It affects how I think, how I feel, what I do, my understanding and perception of myself as well as what's going on in the world around me. It's a "drawing" / "type of compulsion" that at this point in my life; causes me to primarily pray for wisdom and strength to "do the next thing in front of me". That's the practicality of what ever God may be calling me to do in that moment; ends up working out His will in my life.

It's a complex form of existence; that affects everything about me. - I think is the best way I can describe it.

I like your response to what can be quite a difficult matter to deal with... and I find your thoughts align very much with my personal experience of living the life (now that I am alive)

I was curious how you would view, what may be called, a miraculous healing, of a critically ill unbelieving person (in fact a vitriolic denier of Christ)... this was a family member whose hand I was holding when praying to the Father to have mercy and grant an extension of life while he was in an induced coma in ICU and close to death (my sisters de-facto partner)... that was 20 years ago and I recently met him again last Christmas while visiting my sister.

The immediacy of God (omnipresence) in regards our prayers, whether answered or not, is an area where I find some conflict with the notion of cessation of the exercise of power by the Holy Spirit... I am not looking to get into a broad discussion... it's just that I liked your response above and thought it would be interesting to consider your thoughts regards the situation I have described, which I'm sure is not uncommon among Gods children.
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