WHAT IS THE REAL GOSPEL?

[LoveGodsWord]

Lets continue with the OP question...

Q6. CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE IN THE NC WITHOUT GOD'S LAW? (Part 1/2)

From the scriptures it was shown God's grace is linked to MERCY and PEACE and TRUTH because all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death. *Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23. But God so loved our world that he sent his only SON to die on our behalf for the sins that we all have committed in order to bring us back to GOD.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 8:3-4 [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

God's grace is shown that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Romans 5:6-10 [6], For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
[7], For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. [8], But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9], Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10], For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This leads us to the next question.

CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE IN THE NC WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

If we are all sinners in need of a Savior for all of us have sinned according to Romans 3:23. If we do not know that we are sinners will how can we see God's grace? Notice this next question from Jesus to the Pharisees that thought they were righteous in God's eyes.

Matthew 7:12-13 [12], But when Jesus heard that, he said to them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. [13], But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

and again...

MATTHEW 5:20 [20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

According to the scriptures Jesus came to magnify the law from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds or is greater than the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil begins in the heart *Mark 7:21; John 5:42; Jeremiah 18:12 which is why we need to be born again *John 3:3-7 into God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 and receive a new one *Ezekiel 36:24-27.

Jesus says that it is the breaking of any one of God's 10 commandments from the heart is what defiles a man in Matthew 15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28. Jesus magnified the law to the inside out. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Savior and that sin originates in our heart (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the new covenant promise and need to be born again by Faith in God's Word for God's salvation is to be set free from the sins we have become a slave to (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *John 8:31-36; Romans 6:1-23

If we are not born again *John 3:3-7 into God's nee covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 John 2:3-4; John 3:3-7. All those who knowingly break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin according to James *James 2:10-11. All those who knowingly continue in unrepentant sin will not enter into God's kingdom according to Paul in *Hebrews 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23 and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace *Hebrews 10:26-31. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

Righteousness comes from love because love is the fulfilling of God's Law in all those who believe and follow God's Word and is the very expression of what love is according to Romans 13:8-10. He that does not love does not know God for God is love according to John in 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are born again have a new heart to love and follow God *1 John 4:7. This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12.

According to God's Word those who are born again to love do not practice sin (breaking God's Commandments) *1 John 3:4-9. This is why John finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 John 5:2-3 and is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15. Unless we are born again under God's new covenant promise to give us a new heart to love we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven *John 3:3-7 as we need to be changed from the from the inside out and God's salvation is from the inside out.

CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

Absolutely not! "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." (Matthew 9:12-13). The purpose of God's law is to show us that we have all sinned and are all sinners in need of God's salvation from the great Physician. God's law is the schoolmaster that leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. This also includes God's 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments according to Exodus 20:8-11; Hebrews 4:9

We will go more into this question in PART 2 of this post....

God bless.

 

[HIM]

There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.

Hope this helps.

Good post, I hope you had a nice Sabbath.
There is No mention of any statute, law, or commandment given from God in those text. As you pointed out The passage is dealing with what man esteems, reasons in his thoughts. His opinion not God's word. We really like how Berean Study Bible translates the Greek word translated doubtful in the KJV. Below are couple translations of Rom 14:1. Below that is Thayer's entry for the Greek word διαλογισμός which is translated doubtful, reasonings, and opinions in the the translations provided below. Please take not to the Bold emphasis provided.

KJV Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

GUV Rom 14:1 But keep receiving for yourselves the one who is being weak in the faith, not (for) decisions of reasonings.

BSB Rom 14:1 - Accept him whose - faith is weak, without - passing judgment on his opinions.


ISV Rom 14:1 Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion.

LSV Rom 14:1 And receive him who is weak in the faith—not to determinations of reasonings;

(CLV) Ro 14:1
Now the |infirm in the faith be taking~ to yourselves, but not for discrimination of reasonings.


διαλογισμός, διαλογισμοῦ, ὁ (διαλογίζομαι), the Septuagint for מַחֲשָׁבָה and Chaldean רַעְיוֹן, in Greek writings from Plato down, the thinking of a man deliberating with himself; hence,
1. a thought, inward reasoning: Luk 2:35; Luk 5:22; Luk 6:8; Luk 9:46f; Rom 14:1 (yet some bring this under 2); the reasoning of those who think themselves to be wise, Rom 1:21; 1Co 3:20; an opinion: κριταί διαλογισμῶν πονηρῶν, judges with evil thoughts, i.e. who follow perverse opinions, reprehensible principles, Jas 2:4 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 187 (176)); purpose, design: Mat 15:19; Mar 7:21.
2. a deliberating, questioning, about what is true: Luk 24:38; when in reference to what ought to be done, hesitation, doubting: χωρίς γογγυσμῶν καί διαλογισμῶν, Php 2:14 ('γογγυσμῶν is the moral, διαλογισμῶν the intellectual rebellion against God' Lightfoot); χωρίς ὀργῆς καί διαλογισμοῦ, 1Ti 2:8; (in the last two passages others still advocate the rendering disputing; yet cf. Meyer on Philippians the passage cited).*

 

[HIM]

Hello Davey, I am not sure why you think I am arguing with you here. My last post (post # 157) only shows that Exodus 20:13 in the Hebrew word for kill/murder between the translations can be translated as kill or murder because the Hebrew word means both kill and murdering people. Killing with intent is murder which I believe is the meaning of the scripture here.

And in Matthew 19:18 the Greek word used is specific to 'murder', which is Lord Jesus quoting from Exodus 20.


NT:5406
phoneus (fon-yooce'); from NT:5408; a murderer (always of criminal [or at least intentional] homicide; which NT:443 does not necessarily imply; while NT:4607 is a special term for a public bandit):

KJV - murderer.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Hi Davey and LGW.
As LGW pointed out the word is rather broad in meaning. Below is Thayer's entry. Please notice in it highlighted in bold the mention of the Septuagint (LXX). If you are not aware that is the Greek translation of the OT that was done around 3 BC. Many passages in the NT are quoted from it directly. In other words the disciples used it. With that being said below Thayer's entry are all the verses in which the Greek word φονεύω is used in the LXX. The translation provided of the verses is the ABP. It is an a direct English translation of the LXX. If you wish you can look up any of the verses in whatever translation you like. Take note that in Numbers 35 and in other books it used in reference to manslaughter. And also it is worthy of notice that in Joshua 10 and other places it is used in relation to killing.



φονεύω; future φονεύσω; 1 aorist ἐφόνευσα; (φονεύς); from (Pindar, Aeschylus), Herodotus down; the Septuagint mostly for רָצֵח, also for הָרַג, הִכָּה, etc.; to kill, slay, murder; absolutely, to commit murder (A.V. kill): Mat 5:21; Jas 4:2; οὐ (which see 6) φονεύσεις, Mat 5:21; Mat 19:18; Rom 13:9 (Exo 20:15); μή φονεύσῃς, Mar 10:19; Luk 18:20; Jas 2:11. τινα: Mat 23:31; Mat 23:35; Jas 5:6.*


Exod 20:13 You shall not murder.
Exod 21:13 But if it be done not willingly, but God delivered up into his hands, I will give to you a place in which he shall flee there -- the one man-slaying.
Num 35:6 And the cities which you shall give to the Levites are the six cities of the places of refuge, which you shall give [3 to flee 4 there 1 for the 2 one man-slaying]; and in addition to these, forty two cities.
Num 35:12 And they will be cities for you as places of refuge from the one acting as next of kin for blood, that in no way should [3 die 1 the one 2 man-slaying] until whenever he should stand before the congregation for judgment.
Num 35:19 The one acting as next of kin for blood, this one shall kill the one man-slaying; whenever he meets him, this one shall kill him.
Num 35:21 or through vehement anger he strikes him by the hand, and he should die -- to death let [3 be put to death 1 the one 2 striking], he is a murderer! The one acting as next of kin for blood shall kill the one man-slaying in the meeting up with him.
Num 35:25 And [3 shall rescue 1 the 2 congregation] the one man-slaying from the one acting as next of kin for blood; and [3 shall restore 4 him 1 the 2 congregation] into the city of his place of refuge, of which he took refuge; and he shall dwell there until whenever [4 should die 1 the 3 priest 2 great], whom they anointed him [3 oil 1 with the 2 holy].
Num 35:26 But if by an exit [3 should come forth from 1 the one 2 man-slaying] the borders of the city in which he took refuge there,
Num 35:27 and [4 should find 5 him 1 the one 2 acting as next of kin 3 for blood] outside the borders of the city of his refuge, and [4 should slaughter 1 the one 2 acting as next of kin 3 for blood] the one man-slaying, [2 not 3 liable 1 is he]?
Num 35:28 For in the city of his refuge let him dwell until [4 should die 3 priest 1 the 2 great]! And after the dying of the [2 priest 1 great] [3 will be able to return 1 the one 2 man-slaying] unto the land of his possession.
Num 35:30 Every one striking a soul, with witnesses, you shall slaughter the one man-slaying; and [2 witness 1 one] shall not witness for a soul to die.
Num 35:31 And you shall not take ransoms for a soul from the one murdering -- the [2 liable 1 one being] is to be done away with, for unto death he shall be put to death.
Deut 4:42 [3 to flee 4 there 1 for the 2 man-killer] who ever should have slaughtered the neighbor not knowingly, and this one having not detested him before yesterday and the third day before. And he shall take refuge in one of these cities, and he shall live --
Deut 5:17 You shall not murder.
Deut 19:6 Lest [4 pursue 1 the one 2 acting as next of kin 3 for blood] after the man-slayer, because [2 is overheated 1 his heart], and overtakes him, if it might be a longer way, and he strikes his life and he should die. And [4 to this man 1 there is no 2 judgment 3 of death], for [2 not 3 detesting 1 he was] him before yesterday and before the third day.
Deut 22:26 for the young woman shall not do anything, there is no [3 to the 4 young woman 1 sin 2 worthy of death]. For as if any [2 should rise up 1 man] against his neighbor, and should do murder taking his life, thus this thing,
Josh 10:28 And [3 Makkedah 2 took 1 Joshua] in that day, and he slaughtered it by the mouth of the sword, and the king. And they utterly destroyed them, and every one breathing that was in it. And there was not left behind in it any one surviving. And they did to the king of Makkedah in which manner they did to the king of Jericho.
Josh 10:30 And the LORD delivered it also into the hand of Israel. And they took it, and its king. And they slaughtered it by the mouth of the sword, and every one breathing that was in it; there was not left behind in her not even one surviving and having escaped. And they did to its king in which manner they did to the king of Jericho.
Josh 10:32 And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hands of Israel. And he took it on the second day, and he slaughtered it by the mouth of the sword, and utterly destroyed it in which manner he did to Libna.
Josh 10:35 And [2 delivered 3 it 1 the LORD] into the hand of Israel. And he took it in that day, and he slaughtered it by the mouth of the sword, and every one breathing in it. In that day they slaughtered in which manner they did to Lachish.
Josh 20:5 And when [5 should pursue 1 the one 2 acting as next of kin 3 for 4 blood] after him, that they shall not consign the one manslaying into his hand, for not knowing he struck his neighbor, and [2 was not 3 disliking 1 he himself] him from yesterday, and the third day before.
Josh 21:13 And to the sons of Aaron the priest he gave the city, the place of refuge for the one manslaying -- Hebron and the parts being separated with it, and Libnah and the parts being separated with it,
Josh 21:21 And they gave to them the city of the place of refuge for the one manslaying -- Shechem and the parts being separated with it in mount Ephraim, and Gezer and the parts being separated with it,
Josh 21:27 And to the sons of Gershon, the relatives to the Levites, [3 were from 4 the 5 half 6 tribe 7 of Manasseh 1 the 2 cities], the parts being separated for the ones manslaying -- Golan in the Bashan area and the parts being separated with it, and Beeshterah and the parts being separated with it -- [2 cities 1 two].
Josh 21:32 And from out of the tribe of Naphtali, the cities being separated for the one manslaying -- Kedesh in Galilee and the parts being separated with it, and Hamoth-dor and the parts being separated with it, and Kartan and the parts being separated with it -- [2 cities 1 three].
Josh 21:36 And cities of the Jordan of Jericho, from out of the tribe of Reuben, the city of the place of refuge of the one manslaying -- Bezer and the outskirts of it, and Jahazah and the outskirts of it,
Josh 21:38 And from the tribe of Gad, the city of the place of refuge of the one manslaying -- Ramoth in Gilead and the outskirts of it, and Mahanaim and the outskirts of it;
Judg 20:4 And [3 answered 1 the 2 man], the Levite, the husband of the woman having been murdered. And he said, [2 unto 3 Gibeah 4 of Benjamin 1 I came], I and my concubine to rest up.
1Kgs 20:40 And it came to pass as your servant looked round about here this way and here that way, that this man was not around. And [4 said 5 to 6 him 1 the 2 king 3 of Israel], Behold, you are the magistrate, [2 for 3 me 1 you murdered].
1Kgs 21:19 And you shall speak to him, saying, Thus says the LORD, You murdered and inherited. Therefore thus says the LORD, In the place where [3 licked 1 the 2 dogs] the blood of Naboth, there [3 shall lick 1 the 2 dogs] your blood.
2Chr 25:3 And it came to pass as [3 was placed 1 the 2 kingdom] in his hand, that he killed his servants -- the ones murdering [2 the 3 king 1 his father].
Neh 4:11 And [4 said 1 the 2 ones afflicting 3 us], They shall not know, and they shall not see until whenever we should come into the midst of them, and should murder them, and should cause [3 to cease 1 the 2 work].
Neh 6:10 And I entered into the house of Shemaiah son of Dalaiah, son of Mehetabeel, and he was constrained; and he said, We should gather together in the house of God, in the midst of it, and we should lock its doors, for they are coming by night to murder you.
Ps 62:3 For how long do you put upon a man? [3 slaughter 2 all 1 You] as a wall leaning and a fence thrusting through.
Ps 94:6 The widow and orphan they killed; and the foreigner they murdered.
Prov 1:32 For because they wronged the simple ones, they shall be slaughtered, and an inquisition [2 the impious 1 shall destroy].
Prov 7:26 [3 many 1 For 4 in piercing 2 she has thrown down], and innumerable are whom she has murdered.
Jer 7:9 and you murder, and you commit adultery, and steal, and swear upon an oath unjustly, and burn incense to Baal, and go after strange gods whom you do not know,
Lam 2:20 Behold, O LORD, and look upon what you gleaned thus! Shall [2 eat 1 the women] the fruit of their belly? Shall [4 be murdered 1 infants 2 nursing 3 breasts]? Shall you kill in the sanctuary of the LORD the priest and prophet?
Hos 6:9 And your strength is as a man who is a maruader. [2 hid 1 The priests]; [2 in the way 1 they murdered] of Shechem; for [2 lawlessness 1 they committed] in the house of Israel.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi all,

Can we get back to friendly discussion please. The purpose of this thread is for friendly discussion from the scriptures. To share the good new of Gods' grace through faith and God's plan of salvation for the sins of the world where we can see the love of God on the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ where God so loved our world that he gave us His only begotten son to die on the cross the death that we all needed to die so that we can be reconciled to God simply by believing Gods good news (the Word of God). Love is of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother. Let's be careful friend to care about one another. We may agree to disagree but let's not simply be disagreeable when it comes to Gods' Word. If we could not keep on topic to the OP that would be great

God bless

 

[chad kincham]

You must be born from above.

Born from above is an incorrect rendering of the text.

Nicodemus’ question to Jesus about how can a man reenter the womb and be born a second time proves that it’s born again, not born from above.

The atmosphere has no womb.

Plus Peter references being born anew, same meaning as born again.

 

[Nathan@work]

Born from above is an incorrect rendering of the text.

Nicodemus’ question to Jesus about how can a man reenter the womb and be born a second time proves that it’s born again, not born from above.

The atmosphere has no womb.

Plus Peter references being born anew, same meaning as born again.

Well, the term ‘above’ doesn’t mean the atmosphere.

It is born again - from above - where God dwells - not from the earth.

You must have Gods Spirit give you life.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Good post, I hope you had a nice Sabbath. There is No mention of any statute, law, or commandment given from God in those text. As you pointed out The passage is dealing with what man esteems, reasons in his thoughts. His opinion not God's word. We really like how Berean Study Bible translates the Greek word translated doubtful in the KJV. Below are couple translations of Rom 14:1. Below that is Thayer's entry for the Greek word διαλογισμός which is translated doubtful, reasonings, and opinions in the the translations provided below. Please take not to the Bold emphasis provided.

KJV Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

GUV Rom 14:1 But keep receiving for yourselves the one who is being weak in the faith, not (for) decisions of reasonings.

BSB Rom 14:1 - Accept him whose - faith is weak, without - passing judgment on his opinions.


ISV Rom 14:1 Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion.

LSV Rom 14:1 And receive him who is weak in the faith—not to determinations of reasonings;

(CLV) Ro 14:1
Now the |infirm in the faith be taking~ to yourselves, but not for discrimination of reasonings.


διαλογισμός, διαλογισμοῦ, ὁ (διαλογίζομαι), the Septuagint for מַחֲשָׁבָה and Chaldean רַעְיוֹן, in Greek writings from Plato down, the thinking of a man deliberating with himself; hence,
1. a thought, inward reasoning: Luk 2:35; Luk 5:22; Luk 6:8; Luk 9:46f; Rom 14:1 (yet some bring this under 2); the reasoning of those who think themselves to be wise, Rom 1:21; 1Co 3:20; an opinion: κριταί διαλογισμῶν πονηρῶν, judges with evil thoughts, i.e. who follow perverse opinions, reprehensible principles, Jas 2:4 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 187 (176)); purpose, design: Mat 15:19; Mar 7:21.
2. a deliberating, questioning, about what is true: Luk 24:38; when in reference to what ought to be done, hesitation, doubting: χωρίς γογγυσμῶν καί διαλογισμῶν, Php 2:14 ('γογγυσμῶν is the moral, διαλογισμῶν the intellectual rebellion against God' Lightfoot); χωρίς ὀργῆς καί διαλογισμοῦ, 1Ti 2:8; (in the last two passages others still advocate the rendering disputing; yet cf. Meyer on Philippians the passage cited).*

Good post HIM thanks for sharing. I will get back to this thread soon. I have been a little busy with a few other things at the moment. Thanks for sharing your view here.

God bless

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There are laws. There is sin. Our Savior has set us free from it. [Jhn 8:34-36 ESV] Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

How does the bible define sin in these scriptures *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7 and what is God's law for according to Romans 3:20 in the new covenant?

 

[Nathan@work]

How does the bible define sin in these scriptures *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7 and what is God's law for according to Romans 3:20 in the new covenant?

Wouldn't it be better to ask how does God defines sin? Seems pretty simple.

Sin = anything not good.

What is the Gospel? The good news!

So the question is, can anything good have sin in it?

 

[pescador]

Wouldn't it be better to ask how does God defines sin? Seems pretty simple.

Sin = anything not good.

What is the Gospel? The good news!

So the question is, can anything good have sin in it?

Some people would say that drugs and alcohol are good but have sin in them. But I disagree with that.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑How does the bible define sin in these scriptures *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7 and what is God's law for according to Romans 3:20 in the new covenant?

Your response

Wouldn't it be better to ask how does God defines sin? Seems pretty simple.

Sin = anything not good.

What is the Gospel? The good news!

So the question is, can anything good have sin in it?

Not really Nathan God's Word is how God defines sin. Did you read the question asked of you in the post you are responding to? You do not need to answer this question if you do not want to it was fairly specific. I am happy to answer it for you

 

[Nathan@work]

Your response


Not really Nathan God's Word is how God defines sin. Did you read the question asked of you in the post you are responding to? You do not need to answer this question if you do not want to it was fairly specific. I am happy to answer it for you

Well, I really do not like to just pick out a few verses when I am trying to reach a conclusion on something. I did read the post, and I did see the verses you selected.

However, those are not the only verses that we can use to define sin.

The same thing applies to God's law.

It's best that we go straight to the source of His law, and knowledge about all things - God Himself.

So yes, sin is anything that is not good.

Do you disagree with that? Do you believe that some things that are good can also have sin in them?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well, I really do not like to just pick out a few verses when I am trying to reach a conclusion on something. I did read the post, and I did see the verses you selected.

However, those are not the only verses that we can use to define sin.

The same thing applies to God's law.

It's best that we go straight to the source of His law, and knowledge about all things - God Himself.

So yes, sin is anything that is not good.

Do you disagree with that? Do you believe that some things that are good can also have sin in them?

Sin as defined by God's Word in the bible includes breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11 and not believing and following God's Word *Romans 14:26; Hebrews 10:26-31.

....................

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST EXCEPT THE LAW HAS SAID THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

James 2:10-11 [10] For WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], For he THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.

Romans 14:23 ....whatsoever is not of faith is sin

.................

God's 4th commandment Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-11 that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.


Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Chad some comments for your consideration below...

I said the church gathered on the first day because that’s what scripture says.

According to the scriptures God's people met everyday of the week. Of course that does not mean every day of the week is a holy day of rest now does it?

Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 [46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,[47], Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Clearly the sabbath day was ceremonial because it was but a fore-SHADOW of Jesus being our rest 24/7 Matthew 11:28-29, says Colossians 2, who is the SUBSTANCE that cast the shadow, ergo He is our rest daily, not just once per week - and the word translated SABBATHS in that passage, according to Strongs exhaustive Greek dictionary, includes every type of sabbath there is, especially the weekly one - which precludes the oft cited bogus SDA claim that the passage doesn’t mean or include the seventh day sabbath.

Actually not really Chad. There is nothing ceremonial at all in regards to God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath of the 10 commandments as written in Exodus 20:8-11. All of God's 10 commandments are moral laws of right doing and how we love God and our fellow man.

It is actually impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a "shadow law" of anything for the following reasons..

1. The Sabbath was made by God on the "seventh day" of the creation week where he rested from all His creation and set apart the "seventh day" of the week as a memorial of creation *Exodus 20:8 for all mankind (Mark 2:27). At this time (Genesis 2:1-3) God "blessed the seventh day" and made it a holy day for all mankind *Exodus 20:8-11. Their was NO SIN, NO JEW, NO ISRAEL, NO PLAN OF SALVATION because mankind was in perfect harmony and obedience to the creator. So NO "SHADOW LAWS" because there was not sin and no law.

2. God's 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) does not point forward to things to come it points BACKWARDS to the FINISHED work of creation as a memorial of God's creation and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and Earth where it started off; Exodus 20:8 "REMEMBER (pointing backwards) the Sabbath day to keep it holy"

3. The gospel rest of believing and following Gods' Word is not the same as the Sabbath rest which a memorial of creation and an acknowledgement of God as the creator of heaven and earth. The Sabbath was already made before the fall when man believed and followed God not after the fall when man believed the serpent over the Word of God.

4. The within scripture contexts of Colossians 2 is to the "shadow laws" in the Feast days not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. There were many different kinds of Sabbaths in the old covenant connected to the feast days that were not Gods' 4th commandment that were not tied to a day but could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle. (happy to share more scripture on this subject matter if your interested)

It should be obvious how the two love commands tell us what to do - if you love your neighbor as yourself, you won’t steal from him, kill him, covet his goods, lie against him, etc, and if you love God with all your heart you won’t worship idols, or take His name in vain, etc. And the way you treat your neighbor when you love him as yourself, far exceeds the good you will do for him that the Decalogue commands you to.

Love is not separated from Gods' law according to the scriptures it is expressed through obedience to God's law and is why Jesus says on these two great commandments of love to God and our fellow man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. Paul demonstrates what Jesus says in Romans 13:8-10 where he shows that if we love our fellow man we will not break God's 10 commandments and lists them out stating that loving our neighbor is simply a summary of being obedient to God's commandments. James also shows the same thing in James 2:10-11 where he says if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we are not loving our neighbor. This is why John says while agreeing with Jesus, Paul, and James in 1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus says unless we are born again to love we cannot see the kingdom of Heaven in John 3:3-7. Those who are born again do not practice sin according to John in 1 John 3:6-9 and those who do have not seen God or know him *1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23.

We need a new heart to love and that is what God's new covenant is as shown in the scriptures in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Hebrews 10:26-31. God knows us that we are all sinners in need of His salvation and Grace *Matthew 9:12-13 and without Gods help we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42.

Hope this is helpful

 

[pescador]

Sin as defined by God's Word in the bible includes breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11 and not believing and following God's Word *Romans 14:26; Hebrews 10:26-31.

....................

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST EXCEPT THE LAW HAS SAID THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

James 2:10-11 [10] For WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], For he THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.

Romans 14:23 ....whatsoever is not of faith is sin

.................

God's 4th commandment Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-11 that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.


Hope this is helpful.

One problem: Jesus and His disciples "broke the Sabbath" a number of times, according to the legalistic Pharisees. As did David...

Here is a primary example: "Jesus was going through the grain fields on a Sabbath, and his disciples began to pick some heads of wheat as they made their way. So the Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is against the law on the Sabbath?” He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions were hungry— how he entered the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the sacred bread, which is against the law for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to his companions?” Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath. For this reason the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” Mark 2:23-28

 

[Nathan@work]

Hi Chad some comments for your consideration below...

According to the scriptures God's people met everyday of the week. Of course that does not mean every day of the week is a holy day of rest now does it?

Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 [46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,[47], Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Actually not really Chad. There is nothing ceremonial at all in regards to God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath of the 10 commandments as written in Exodus 20:8-11. All of God's 10 commandments are moral laws of right doing and how we love God and our fellow man.

It is actually impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a "shadow law" of anything for the following reasons..

1. The Sabbath was made by God on the "seventh day" of the creation week where he rested from all His creation and set apart the "seventh day" of the week as a memorial of creation *Exodus 20:8 for all mankind (Mark 2:27). At this time (Genesis 2:1-3) God "blessed the seventh day" and made it a holy day for all mankind *Exodus 20:8-11. Their was NO SIN, NO JEW, NO ISRAEL, NO PLAN OF SALVATION because mankind was in perfect harmony and obedience to the creator. So NO "SHADOW LAWS" because there was not sin and no law.

2. God's 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) does not point forward to things to come it points BACKWARDS to the FINISHED work of creation as a memorial of God's creation and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and Earth where it started off; Exodus 20:8 "REMEMBER (pointing backwards) the Sabbath day to keep it holy"

3. The gospel rest of believing and following Gods' Word is not the same as the Sabbath rest which a memorial of creation and an acknowledgement of God as the creator of heaven and earth. The Sabbath was already made before the fall when man believed and followed God not after the fall when man believed the serpent over the Word of God.

4. The within scripture contexts of Colossians 2 is to the "shadow laws" in the Feast days not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. There were many different kinds of Sabbaths in the old covenant connected to the feast days that were not Gods' 4th commandment that were not tied to a day but could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle. (happy to share more scripture on this subject matter if your interested)

Love is not separated from Gods' law according to the scriptures it is expressed through obedience to God's law and is why Jesus say on these two great commandments of love to God and our fellow man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. Paul demonstrates what Jesus says in Romans 13:8-10 where he shows that if we love our fellow man we will not break God's 10 commandments and lists them out stating that loving our neighbor is simply a summary of being obedient to God's commandments. James also shows the same thing in James 2:10-11 where he says if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we are not loving our neighbor. This is why John says while agreeing with Jesus, Paul, and James in 1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus says unless we are born again to love we cannot see the kingdom of Heaven in John 3:3-7. Those who are born again do not practice sin according to John in 1 John 3:6-9 and those who do have not seen God or know him *1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23.

We need a new heart to love and that is what God's new covenant is as shown in the scriptures in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Hebrews 10:26-31. God knows us that we are all sinners in need of His salvation and Grace *Matthew 9:12-13 and without Gods help we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42.

Hope this is helpful

Actually, the way the Sabbath was practiced was very much ceremonial.

In fact, it is the only Commandment that has a reason ‘attached’ to it. And it’s the only commandment that the reason ‘attached’ to it varies from one account to the other. Exodus 20 vs Deuteronomy 5.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Actually, the way the Sabbath was practiced was very much ceremonial.

In fact, it is the only Commandment that has a reason ‘attached’ to it. And it’s the only commandment that the reason ‘attached’ to it varies from one account to the other. Exodus 20 vs Deuteronomy 5.

That is not the definition of ceremonial.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

One problem: Jesus and His disciples "broke the Sabbath" a number of times, according to the legalistic Pharisees. As did David...

Here is a primary example: "Jesus was going through the grain fields on a Sabbath, and his disciples began to pick some heads of wheat as they made their way. So the Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is against the law on the Sabbath?” He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions were hungry— how he entered the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the sacred bread, which is against the law for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to his companions?” Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath. For this reason the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” Mark 2:23-28

If Jesus actually broke the Sabbath we are all lost with no hope in this world. Do you know why pescador?

 

[HIM]

Good post HIM thanks for sharing. I will get back to this thread soon. I have been a little busy with a few other things at the moment. Thanks for sharing your view here.

God bless

Hi LoveGodsWord, I know a little about busy. Keep on keeping on, May His strength and love keep us and move us in His knowledge and wisdom.

 

[HIM]

One problem: Jesus and His disciples "broke the Sabbath" a number of times, according to the legalistic Pharisees. As did David...

Here is a primary example: "Jesus was going through the grain fields on a Sabbath, and his disciples began to pick some heads of wheat as they made their way. So the Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is against the law on the Sabbath?” He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions were hungry— how he entered the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the sacred bread, which is against the law for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to his companions?” Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath. For this reason the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” Mark 2:23-28

What of Matthew's account of this instance. The one where Jesus says they were guiltless. Meaning they were not guilty of breaking anything.

Matt 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Matt 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Matt 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Matt 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Matt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Matt 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Matt 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matt 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.