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So I understand correctly, right(?), you believe Salvation is earned not free?Hello Nathan. Of course God's salvation is conditional on believing and following His Word.
Let's look at the scriptures asking the question...
IS SALVATION CONDITIONAL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?
“IF” SHOWS SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON BOTH BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD
OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)
“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.
We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...
GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.
Consequences for not believing and following...
GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.
EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.
Blessings for believing and following...
EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.
LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.
..............
NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)
“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.
God's forgiveness is conditional...
1 JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...
MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Conditions for inheriting eternal life...
MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF (conditional) you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.
God only hears those who are following His Word...
JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.
JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.
JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.
JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.
JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.
Ok once again too many scriptures that could have been listed here that I did not include in this post. This is only the short version. Faith therefore according to the scriptures definition is believing and doing what Gods' Word says and everyone of Gods' 10 commandments according to the new covenant scriptures are a requirement for Christian living as they are how love is expressed to both God and our fellow man according to Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 5:2-4.
Hope this helps.
No you do not understand correctly at all dear friend. What do you think post # 468 is saying? I have never once said anywhere in this forum or elsewhere and neither do I believe anyone earns salvation. I have always only ever stated and provided scripture showing the opposite to you more than once now. It seems that there is a communication break down between us especially when I post you the opposite and you think I am stating things I have never said or do not believe. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding and may need to take more time to consider what is being shared with you?So I understand correctly, right(?), you believe Salvation is earned not free?
Who's faith?You view what I say wrong then. I do not believe Faith abolishes God's law.
Let me repeat - I do not believe Faith abolishes God's law.
Where have I said differently?
What I have said is the law is not of Faith.
[Gal 3:12 ESV] But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."
Do you believe the law is of Faith?
No those are your thoughts, Paul says He finds a law in verse 21. He says that this law is ANOTHER law in verse 23 and that this law is that when he would do Good, evil is present with him. He says that He delights after the Law of God after (down in) the inner man, but this other law that he finds wars against the Law in his mind. He then begins to call this other Law, the law of sin in verse 23 and says he is in captivity to it. It has become part of him, it is in his members. Remember Our Savior's words in John 8:34? He said "He that committeth sin is a servant to it." Paul in recognizing this then cries out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"Same law. There is no other law than God's that shows us we sin.
God's law shows us we sin and that we cannot be perfect. The Gospel shows us Jesus is sinless and that we should turn from self-serving according to our ways to serving Him according to His way - Faith.
The law - the only law - is not of Faith.
I don't think that the SDA believe that Jesus rose on Sunday.
Jesus amplified the Sabbath throughout His ministry, in death and even in heaven. He died on Friday before Sabbath, rested in death on the Sabbath day, then rose after Sabbath on Sunday. Matthew 27, Matthew 28
I don't think that the SDA believe that Jesus rose on Sunday.
I think the SDA believe that Jesus was crucified and buried on the 4th day.
Jesus rested in the tomb on the Sabbath high day, i.e., the 5th day.
Jesus was in the tomb on the 6th day, i.e., the preparation day.
Jesus rose on the 7th day, i.e., the Sabbath day.
Hello David, perhaps you have this mixed up as this is not true. SDA's believe the biblical version that Jesus died on the preparation day (Friday) before the Sabbath and Passover/Unleavened bread (High Sabbath) at the same time the Paschal lambs were killed in preparation for the Passover. It was a high Sabbath that year (the Passover fell on the seventh day weekly Sabbath of Gods 4th commandment).I don't think that the SDA believe that Jesus rose on Sunday.
I think the SDA believe that Jesus was crucified and buried on the 4th day.
Jesus rested in the tomb on the Sabbath high day, i.e., the 5th day.
Jesus was in the tomb on the 6th day, i.e., the preparation day.
Jesus rose on the 7th day, i.e., the Sabbath day.
So how do you get three full days and three full nights?Hello David, perhaps you have this mixed up as this is not true. SDA's believe the biblical version that Jesus died on the preparation day (Friday) before the Sabbath and Passover/Unleavened bread (High Sabbath) at the same time the Paschal lambs were killed in preparation for the Passover. It was a high Sabbath that year (the Passover fell on the seventh day weekly Sabbath of Gods 4th commandment).
Hope this is helpful
They are not full days in Hebrew reckoning as even part days can refer to a day in the scriptures. Jesus was to rise on the third day not after it. Also keep in mind according to the scriptures a day in God's time begins in the evening (see Genesis 1 ending in the following evening)So how do you get three full days and three full nights?
Given that Jesus was in the tomb on Friday afternoon and rose Sunday?
I know there are different SDA organizations.They are not full days in Hebrew reckoning as even part days can refer to a day in the scriptures. Jesus was to rise on the third day not after it. Also keep in mind according to the scriptures a day in God's time begins in the evening (see Genesis 1 ending in the following evening)
There is no scripture that says Jesus had to be a full literal 72 hours in the grave that interpretation is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say. There are many scripture examples of "part days" being referred to as "a day".
In Matthew 12:40 for example “three days and nights” is considered to be Hebrew figure of speech and in Hebrew day deconing can refer to any part of three days and nights. This is quite a common practice used within the scriptures.
For example in Esther 4:16; Esther 5:1 “three days and three nights” does not mean 72 hours. For, although they fasted three days and nights (4:16) between the time they started and the time she appeared before the king, the passage states that Esther appeared before the king “on the third day” (5:1). If they began on Friday, then the third day would be Sunday. Hence, “three days and nights” must mean any part of three days and nights.
Also you may want to consider Jesus used the phrase “on the third day” to describe the time of His resurrection after His crucifixion (Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 26:61). But, “on the third day” cannot mean “after three days” which 72 hours demands. On the other hand, the phrase “on the third day” or “three days and nights” can be understood to mean within three days and nights. If you follow the timings through Jesus perfectly fulfilled the prophecy as he died on Nissan 14, rested in the grave on Nissan 15 and rose sometime on Nissan 16 (first day of the week).
Jesus disciples also knew this. We can see on the resurrection day (3rd day) Jesus met with the disciples on the road to Emmaus when they said “and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened.”
I have made a chart from the scriptures that might be useful here... As shown through these scriptures Jesus here fulfills the Passover and Feast of first fruits with his resurrection on Sunday perfectly in fulfillment of these feasts also which Paul also agrees (see also 1 Corinthians 5:6-8)
View attachment 297459
Hope this is helpful
I know there are different SDA organizations.
Have you ever encountered other church movements under the SDA umbrella, that hold different views?
This is getting confusing.
The information below is from a SDA website called Sign of the Times.Hi David, no I have never heard that view before until you posted it earlier. First time I have heard of it from coming from the SDA. So I do not think it is true to be honest.
The information below is from a SDA website called Sign of the Times.
When Was Jesus Crucified?
For the past 2,000 years Christians have generally understood that Jesus was crucified on a Friday afternoon and that He rose from the grave early the following Sunday morning. However, in recent years some Christians have adopted the view that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday afternoon and that He rose from the grave late on Sabbath afternoon.
In the June Signs last year, I responded to a reader's question about this issue with the statement that 'we at Signs of the Times' accept the view that Christ was crucified on Friday afternoon. Several readers wrote insisting that the biblical evidence supports the Wednesday crucifixion theory.
In my response to these readers, I stated that a full explanation of this question is rather technical and quite beyond what can be published in the short answers given in the Bible Questions section of Signs. However, I promised to provide this explanation with an article in the following April issue, so please consider this article an extended Bible Questions response.
I will begin by saying that I respect the view of those who adopt the Wednesday crucifixion theory, even though I and the publishers of Signs of the Times disagree with it. I should also point out that this is not a salvation issue, that is, no one's eternal life depends on the acceptance of either of these views. What matters is that Jesus died and that He will save anyone who accepts Him as their Savior regardless of when they believe He was crucified. (signstimes.com)
So obviously there are, in fact, SDA members who hold to the five day death and resurrection scenario.
The information below is from a SDA website called Sign of the Times.
When Was Jesus Crucified?
For the past 2,000 years Christians have generally understood that Jesus was crucified on a Friday afternoon and that He rose from the grave early the following Sunday morning. However, in recent years some Christians have adopted the view that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday afternoon and that He rose from the grave late on Sabbath afternoon.
In the June Signs last year, I responded to a reader's question about this issue with the statement that 'we at Signs of the Times' accept the view that Christ was crucified on Friday afternoon. Several readers wrote insisting that the biblical evidence supports the Wednesday crucifixion theory.
In my response to these readers, I stated that a full explanation of this question is rather technical and quite beyond what can be published in the short answers given in the Bible Questions section of Signs. However, I promised to provide this explanation with an article in the following April issue, so please consider this article an extended Bible Questions response.
I will begin by saying that I respect the view of those who adopt the Wednesday crucifixion theory, even though I and the publishers of Signs of the Times disagree with it. I should also point out that this is not a salvation issue, that is, no one's eternal life depends on the acceptance of either of these views. What matters is that Jesus died and that He will save anyone who accepts Him as their Savior regardless of when they believe He was crucified. (signstimes.com)
So obviously there are, in fact, SDA members who hold to the five day death and resurrection scenario.
Not sure if your correct.David that article is talking about people that believe in a Wednesday Crucifixion. It is not saying those people that believe in a Wednesday crucifixion are SDA's as SDA's do not believe in a Wednesday crucifixion as posted earlier.
Not sure if your correct.
Here is an example of what people in the SDA believe.
The Lunar Sabbath and the SDA
Dr. Jacques Doukhan, Professor of Hebrew and Old Testament Exegesis at Andrews University, was the featured speaker at Worker's Meeting for the Upper Columbia Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in August of 2007. The conference was considering establishing a church plant in Spokane, Washington, to reach Messianic Jews. Doukhan was invited to speak to the Conference ministers about the annual feasts.
According to three people in attendance, a number of pastors voiced questions about the Biblical calendar. One of the pastors stated that at that time, Doukhan acknowledged that when the Sabbath is calculated by the Biblical calendar, it will fall differently.
If the Sabbath on the Biblical calendar does not fall on Saturday, why does the Seventh-day Adventist Church still teach that Saturday is the Sabbath? Why has the leadership not informed the church members? How long has the leadership known that Saturday is not the true Bible Sabbath?
(4angelspublications.com/articles/Lunar_Sabbath_SDA_Church.php)
What was stated below concerns the Saturday Sabbath and is not related to Messianic Jews.I am absolutely correct. Once again your promoting things that SDAs do not an believe. The context of that was for an outreach program for Messianic Jews.
What was stated below concerns the Saturday Sabbath and is not related to Messianic Jews.
"According to three people in attendance, a number of pastors voiced questions about the Biblical calendar. One of the pastors stated that at that time, Doukhan acknowledged that when the Sabbath is calculated by the Biblical calendar, it will fall differently.
If the Sabbath on the Biblical calendar does not fall on Saturday, why does the Seventh-day Adventist Church still teach that Saturday is the Sabbath? Why has the leadership not informed the church members? How long has the leadership known that Saturday is not the true Bible Sabbath?"
No you do not understand correctly at all dear friend. What do you think post # 468 is saying? I have never once said anywhere in this forum or elsewhere and neither do I believe anyone earns salvation. I have always only ever stated and provided scripture showing the opposite to you more than once now. It seems that there is a communication break down between us especially when I post you the opposite and you think I am stating things I have never said or do not believe. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding and may need to take more time to consider what is being shared with you?
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