What is the Purpose of the Tribulation and Will I Be There if it Happens

Revealing Times said:

I have done an Exegesis on Matthew 24. I understand it says great troubles will come, but why do we as Christians try to frame words only only being able to describe ONE EVENT? Jesus stated there would be GREAT TROUBLES like never seen before or since, the very same events that Daniel Described in Daniel 12:1-2.

Now lets move to Revelation chapter 7. John Describes the 144,000 Jewish Servants of God from verses 1-8. Then John speaks in verse 9 about a great multitude.

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is the Church in Heaven, who have been Raptured. The came out of the Great Tribulation. No Jacobs Troubles which had the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER, but the Tribulation that the Church went through for 2000 years. I find it astonishing that people do not seem to grasp what the Church went through for 2000 year until this very day. And the 2000 Year Tribulation is GREATER (In length by far) than the Seven Years of Jacobs Troubles. So we have to back off and quit demanding that certain words have a certain meaning. What is GREATER THAN depends on what is being spoken about. If its the TIME PERIOD then the 2000 year period is GREATER than the Seven Year Period of Jacobs Troubles, if its the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER being spoken of then its the Seven Year Period of Jacobs Troubles. Jesus was speaking about the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER in Matthew 24:21, John was speaking about the Church in Heaven having come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD of the Church Age. A 2000 year period that ends in the Rapture.

We can't pigeon hole certain words to ONLY have certain meanings. You and I agree on the Rapture being before the Tribulation, I am pretty sure on that. So I understand you have a certain degree of comprehension skills.

So I am pointing out the obvious, I have been understanding this for 6 whole Months (lol) after agreeing with you for 30 years as a Christian. But the Obvious is, the Church is shown in Heaven in chapters 4,5, 7 and 19. The Church in Rev. 7 is not the Martyrs under the Alter in Rev. chapter 6, they (Seal #5) are given White Robes and told they must wait until their fellow brothers/servants have been killed also, which means they must wait until the BEASTS 42 Month rule is finished. Those mentioned in Revelation ch. 7 are the Raptured Saints brother, or the Church.

The Bible clearly tells us the Church will go through much Tribulation:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (Before the Rapture)

Rev. 1:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

As we know, Rome killed many of the early Church, ISIS now murders our brothers and sisters in their lands, we are living in the 2000 Year Church Age, and in Great Tribulation, though we in America are blessed not to have to endure such catastrophic circumstances, we have had millions of brothers throughout the ages who have died for Christ Jesus name. Those are the MULTITUDES of many peoples, nations and tongues in Revelation chapter 7.

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To clarify the above with the Scriptural facts:

Who/what are the 144,000 Israelites ?

According to the Bible, Jesus, Paul and John revealed, those of us who belong to His Church, will be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the antichrist is revealed, as recorded in 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. Who triggers the seven year tribulation/70th Week of Daniel, God decreed Israel to go through in Dan.9:27.

[In connection with the Church = Jn.14:1-4 and 28; 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8]. In connection with Israel = Jer.30:7 and Dan.9:27, where the person who 'confirms a covenant/treaty/agreement with Israel is the antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in that vs, triggers the 70th and final 'Week,'/seven year tribulation/Day of the Lord. Seen also in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7- 8].

Jesus said He has two sheep folds, Israel whom He was addressing, and the "other one He must also bring," the Church, according to Jn.10:16. He prophecied that they will become one fold with one Shepherd. He also said many who are first will be last [Israel] and many who are last will be first [The Church] in Mt.19:30. This will be fullfilled after the first resurrection af all the tribulation saints, in Rev.20:4-6, and then rule with Christ for 1,000 years, in Rev.4 and 6.

He meant His Church will be CAUGHT UP to be with Him before the tribulation, according to 1 Thes.4:16-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8] and that Israel will go through the tribulation [Dan.9:27]. When Israel finally recognizes Jesus as their Messiah, according to Zech.12:10 , they will then come into the same sheep fold with the Church and the two will become one fold, with Jesus being the one Shepherd, when He establishes His Millennial kingdom here on earth according to Rev.20:6.

When the Church is Caught Up to be with the Lord in heaven, the antichrist is revealed and the tribulation begins, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4, 7-8; Dan.9:27 and Rev.6:2].

The overview of the tribulation, begins with the first of the four riders, on the white horse, who is the antichrist, in the first of seven seals; after the six seals, before the seventh seal that contains the seven trumpet judgements begins in Rev.; God will send 144,000 consisting of 12,000 Israelites from each of twelve of their tribes, that He "redeems from the earth" according to Rev.14:3. Sealing them, and they become converted believers in Jesus Christ who will take the place of the Raptured Church, to preach the Eternal Gospel in their absence, to all those left on the earth, according to Rev.7:1-8. Whom God will send here from heaven [as He will His two witnesses of Rev.11].

They were the righteous ones in OT Sheol when Jesus preached the gospel to them, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. Then when He ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9, He took all the righteous ones who came from OT Sheol with Him, as seen in Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy in Ps.68:18. [During OT times, the spirits of the righteous dead went to Sheol, as did the wicked, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin, according to Heb.10:3-4, Lk.16:19-23 and in Ps.49:14-15, until Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, amplified by Paul in Rom.3:25-26.

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic [preview] view of the Great Multitude seen in heaven, recorded in Rev.7:9-17, who represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, and who are also the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6. They are the tribulation saints and are the ones who will be left behind, when the Church is raptured, and do not belong to the Church, until after the 144,000 bring them to the Lord. The 144,000 do not belong to the Church or they would be raptured with the Church before the tribulation begins.

When their work is finished, the 144,000 will be translated, and return to heaven, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God will commission an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.

Therefore, the 144,000 are all converted Israelites who take the place of the Raptured Church to preach the Gospel to all those who will be left behind when Jesus comes to take His Church with Him to our Father in heaven, as previously address above, documented in Jn.14:2-4 and 28; 1Thes.4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8.


The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in the four post link:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html


Quasar92

jgr said:

What great tribulation was - unparalleled before or after.

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FYI, Jesus Olivet Discourse, in Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 is His prophecy of end times and of His second coming, according to Mt.24:30-31. It is not past history, as you and Preterist's would have it!


Quasar92

Alithis said:

This immediately does not fit.
The scripture says we do know the times and seasons..just not the day not the hour.

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Reference to the fulfillment of all prophetic Scripture is immediate.


Quasar92

jgr said:

Tell that to Jesus who issued the warnings and admonitions for His disciples and followers, and to His disciples and followers who heeded and acted upon those warnings and admonitions, and saved their lives. They weren't thinking very dispensationally, otherwise they'd all be dead.

And tell that to Josephus, who was an eyewitness to history's greatest tribulation.

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As I previously posted for your edification:

I suggest you review Mt.24:21 for the proper concept of what the Great Tribulation is, together with what He told John about from Rev.6 through 19 , that covers the seven judgments of the seals, the trumpets and the Bowls, all 21 of them, to divest yourself of false teachings.

Your concept of the prophetic Scriptures being History, is a Preterist heresy.


Quasar92

jgr said:

Your obdurate refusal to believe Christ's plain words and their ensuing fulfillments is pharisaic blasphemy.

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<SNIP>

According to jgr, a denomination of one!


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

Maybe some of us think it was just an inconvenience when Israel was taken into captivity in Babylon, during the time of Jeremiah.
If that was not a time of "Jacob's trouble", then what was it.

Some believe that many of those men who had been taken into captivity were castrated.
Was that just a minor inconvenience for them?

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Your assessment of what Jacob's trouble is, DID NOT take place during Israels's exile into Babylon. It's past time for you to take stock of the preconceived views you have and do a little research on the issue, to see how far off you are. I challenge you to do a Google search engine on, "what is Jacob's trouble," and see for yourself! Meanwhile, learn from the following:

What is the time of Jacob’s trouble?

The phrase "the time of Jacob's trouble" is a quote from Jeremiah 30:7 which says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (KJV).

In the previous verses of Jeremiah 30, we find that the Lord is speaking to Jeremiah the prophet about Judah and Israel (30:3-4). In verse 3, the Lord promises that one day in the future, He will bring both Judah and Israel back to the land that He had promised their forefathers. Verse 5 describes a time of great fear and trembling. Verse 6 describes this time in a way that pictures men going through the pains of childbirth, again indicating a time of agony. But there is hope for Judah and Israel, for though this is called "the time of Jacob's distress" (NASB), the Lord promises He will save Jacob (referring to Judah and Israel) out of this time of great trouble (verse 7).

In Jeremiah 30:10-11 the Lord says, “‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid. I am with you and will save you,’ declares the LORD.”

Also, the Lord says He will destroy the nations who held Judah and Israel in captivity, and He will never allow Jacob to be completely destroyed. However, it should be noted that the Lord describes this as a time of discipline for His people. He says of Jacob, “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”

Jeremiah 30:7 says, "That day is great, so that none is like it.” The only time period that fits this description is the period of the Tribulation. This time is unparalleled in history.

Jesus described the Tribulation using some of the same imagery as Jeremiah. In Matthew 24:6-8, He stated that the appearance of false christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes are "the beginning of birth pains."

Paul, too, described the Tribulation as birth pains. First Thessalonians 5:3 says, "While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." This event follows the Rapture and the removal of the Church, in 4:13-18. In 5:9, Paul reemphasizes the absence of the Church from this time period by saying, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." The wrath spoken of here is God's judgment on the unbelieving world and His discipline of Israel during the Tribulation.

These “birth pains” are described in detail in Revelation 6-12 Part of the purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel back to the Lord.

For those who have received Christ as Savior from sin, the time of Jacob's trouble is something for which we should praise the Lord, for it demonstrates that God keeps His promises. He has promised us eternal life through Christ our Lord, and He has promised land, seed, and blessing to Abraham and his physical descendants. However, before He fulfills those promises, He will lovingly but firmly discipline the nation of Israel so that they return to Him.

Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware

Source: gotquestions


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

Have you cut the following scripture out of your Bible, or do you just try to ignore it?

Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　
Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　
Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

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　The NKJV below shows the Old Testament text in UPPERCASE letters.
Verse 18 is written in the present tense, during the first century.
It is not waiting on a future fulfillment, because it was fulfilled at Calvary.

Heb 10:16　 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"　
Heb 10:17　 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 10:18　 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.　

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He is on the throne, now.

Act 2:29　 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.　
Act 2:30　 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,　
Act 2:31　 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.　
Act 2:32　 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.　
Act 2:33　 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.　
Act 2:34　 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,　
Act 2:35　 TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL." '　
Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　


He is both ruler and Messiah, now, based on what Peter said on Pentecost.

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No! Jesus is not ruling now, nor seated on the throne of David, because His kingdom will be right here on the earth, recorded in Rev.20:6. Do you ever pray the Lord's prayer, as recorded in Mt.6:9-13? Take not of verse 10, where it says,"Your will be done, your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven."

FYI, most of what I cut and paste come from my own website. Capiche?!

From the gospel accounts, Jesus was a fierce critic of the economic injustices of his day, demanding within his Jewish tradition a radical redistribution of wealth and a recommitment to Israelite teachings about caring for one another. That was his point about God’s kingdom “on earth,” writes Rev. Howard Bess.

By Rev. Howard Bess

Christians often pray the prayer to God that Jesus taught his disciples, which at its heart says: “Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Yet, the typical Christian has no idea what he or she has asked of the almighty, especially with those two words, “on earth.”

The typical minister, pastor or priest does not bother to help people to understand what Jesus might have meant by the Kingdom of God on earth. Or possibly they do not understand it themselves or do not choose to practice what Jesus meant.


Jesus, driving the money-changers from the Temple, in a painting by El Greco.

Without getting into the issue of heaven or life after death, today’s search for the Jesus of history has confronted every follower of that teacher from Nazareth with a blunt question: what did Jesus mean by those two words, “on earth.” From the written record, we know that Jesus was a “this world” person who took seriously responsible living on this planet.

Further, Jesus was an Israelite fully committed to living in this world in accordance with Torah, the Law of God. In a scene described in Luke, a lawyer asked Jesus how to attain the fullest of life. Jesus responded with two questions: What does Torah say? How do you read it? There was no disagreement among Jews about the supremacy of Torah. The critical question was how was Torah to be read in their own day.

Jesus must be placed in the context of rural poor people in Galilee. The land they farmed was rich and productive but owned by very rich people who lived in large cities. The people who did the work were little more than slaves, a situation that Jesus saw as an extreme injustice, a terrible and offensive violation of Torah.

Torah demanded devotion to the one and only God, the God of the Israelites. However, the bulk of Torah was a description of how they were to live with one another and their neighbors. At their roots, the Israelites had been a nomadic people, who subsisted by herding animals and gathering food from the land. They believed the land was owned by God and God made the land available to his people for their good.

Through a series of events, the Israelites spent time in Egypt as slave people but escaped under the leadership first of Moses and later Joshua. They became a fierce warrior tribe and conquered what we now call Palestine. At that point, they were no longer herders and gatherers; they became farmers.

According to the Israelite tradition, their God, Yahweh, laid down strict rules about the land which was distributed by priests to the clans of Israel, but Yahweh retained the title to the land. Leviticus 25:23 states the principle: “The land shall not be sold in perpetuity; for the land is mine; with me, you are but aliens and tenants.”

The use of the land given to Israelites was conditioned. The tenant was obligated to care for the needs of priests, aliens, widows and orphans. Then every 50 years a great redistribution was to take place. All land was to be returned to the priests and reassigned to new tenants. At the same time, all debts were canceled and all slaves were set free.

There is no record that these provisions of Torah were ever practiced. After all, wealth and ownership are addicting; ownership becomes obsessive. Israelites forgot about the 50th year distribution as well as their commitment to generosity.

Wealth grew and the poor became poorer and more desperate. According to the Gospel tradition (Luke 4:18), Jesus from the beginning of his teaching demanded/announced a reestablished year of Jubilee (a 50th year redistribution). Only when these teachings of Jesus are put into the context of the Galilean rural poor of the first century CE, can the radical commitment of Jesus to this world be fully appreciated.

In a modern world that is dominated by capitalism and obscene wealth, we look back at the provisions of Torah, the Law of God, and we shake our heads at the economic system that was demanded but never instituted. Then when we grasp that Jesus demanded the institution of that system, we scratch our heads at his invitation to “follow me.”

What are devout followers of Jesus to do? It seems obvious that following Jesus does not call for a return to an ancient economic system. So, what does the Kingdom of God on earth mean in the 21st Century CE?

I owe a great intellectual debt to New Testament scholar William Herzog II and to his book, Jesus, Justice, and the Reign of God.” Herzog insists that underlying Torah is a demand for compassion and justice. Justice is done when everyone is set free and made whole.

I would argue that praying the words “your kingdom come, your will be done on earth” is the height of hypocrisy if the person praying has no commitment to participate in God’s work of justice in this world.

Jesus was aggressive in his criticism of rich people, rulers, religious leaders and corrupt systems. He called for the overthrow of the Roman rulers and for the destruction of the temple hierarchy in Jerusalem. He also called for love of neighbor and unfettered generosity.

Translating the concerns of Jesus into a modern world is the challenge of Christians today. Generosity, hospitality, forgiveness and love are timeless, but the way they are applied is a moving target in ever-changing societies. Today, immigration, health care, minimum wage, social security, prison reform, taxation rates, equality and justice demand the aggressive involvement of every person who dares to pray those words: “your kingdom come, your will be done on earth.”

The Rev. Howard Bess is a retired American Baptist minister.


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

Rev 20:4　 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.　
Rev 20:5　 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.　
Rev 20:6　 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


John saw "souls", and where are the souls of our dead Brothers and Sisters at this time?

The only way you can make your version work is to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.

Either you are wrong, or Peter was wrong on the Day of Pentecost.

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By what authority are you assuming what I have posted has ignored the judgment of the dead? Show me when and where you think the prophecy of Rev.11:18 took place!

Rev.11:17 “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small
and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

The above passage is a parenthetic and will not take place until AFTER Jesus second coming from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14! As Rev.11:17 so states - when He begins to reign - as in Rev.20:6!

You fail to understand what is parenthetic in prophecy and what is in chronological order. There is nothing you have posted in the above abrogating the contents of my post #37.


Quasar92