What is the purpose of Christ's resurrection concerning our salvation?

[Fish14]

It’s always risky to claim that Scripture is clear about anything, since you can find people who interpret it in different ways. But Paul says we die and rise with Christ and we are justified by faith; John says we have to be born again by the Spirit; the Synoptics say that we have to repent and follow Jesus. To say that no change in us is involved in being Christian is really hard to justify Scripturally.

Of all Christian traditions, Calvinism has tried to minimize the human element. Those who are saved are elect from before the foundation of the world; if it were up to us we’d reject an offer of salvation. But Calvin’s soteriology still involves faith. It’s just that God brings us to faith. If you want to avoid starting any sentence with “I” you can say that God brings us to faith, and makes us die and rise with him.

One thing many people don’t realize is just how important this was to Calvin. A lot of us think the heart of Calvin’s theology was our “mystical union” (his term) with Christ. Through that union, Christ takes our sin and we get his righteousness. (I should note that I have some exegetical issues with this use of righteousness.)

You’re right to quote 1 Cor 15. Christ died and was raised for us. Remember that the point of 1 Cor 15 is to emphasize the importance of the resurrection. 1 Cor 15:22 says that just as we died in Adam we will be made alive in Christ. The context implies that this is a reference to our future resurrection, thus basing our eternal life on our being “in Christ” (a common phrase for Paul) and rising with him. A more detailed explanation is given in Rom 6. It connects rising with Christ with two things: newness of life now (6:4) and eternal life (6:8).

[@ViaCrucis: there’s one tradition that might actually teach what Fish14 seems to be saying: Melanchthon. Do you know how he dealt with the many NT statements about faith, being in Christ, rising with him, etc?]

Okay, so if I have died and risen from the dead with Christ, I'm saved. But suppose I'm an unbeliever. How can I die with Him? I think the Bible is clear that we're saved by faith. What must I believe to be saved?
Currently I think the answer is: Believe that Jesus died for your sins (he took the punishment), was buried and rose again.
But what do you think? What must I believe?

 

[1213]

The purpose of His death was to die for our sins, and thus pay for them, but what about the resurrection?
Does it just prove that He is God?

Bible says the reason for death and resurrections is:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

And the reason why he came on earth (was sent on earth) is this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
John 3:17

 

[hedrick]

Okay, so if I have died and risen from the dead with Christ, I'm saved. But suppose I'm an unbeliever. How can I die with Him? I think the Bible is clear that we're saved by faith. What must I believe to be saved?
Currently I think the answer is: Believe that Jesus died for your sins (he took the punishment), was buried and rose again.
But what do you think? What must I believe?

Paul says we are justified by faith, but defining faith is one of the more difficult issues in understanding him. Faith is a “big” word, covering lots of things. It’s certainly *not* just believing the right things, though it's hard to see how you could have faith in Christ, or die and rise with him if you don't think he died and rose for you.

First, be aware that the same word is translated faith and faithfulness. You can see signs of this even in older English, which talks about keeping faith with someone, or doing something in good faith. So faith has the implication of being faithful.

The Reformers emphasized that faith is trust. Having faith in someone is trusting them. One good reference for this is Rom 4:18. Abraham is Paul's example of faith. In faith he trusted in God's promises.

Here’s Luther’s definition: Martin Luther's Definition of Faith by Martin Luther. “faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God.”

That’s why I think faith as used by Paul is equivalent to Jesus’ concept of being his follower. It involves both trusting him and being faithful to him (following him).

Paul’s other key concept is being “in Christ.” Rom 6:11 “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” 8:1: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” 16:7, 2 Cor 5:17 “So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away”, etc. It’s actually this language of being in Christ rather than “faith” that is used in Rom 6 where he’s discussing dying and rising with Christ and 1 Cor 15:22 “for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.”

This has been referred to as the language of “participation.” It’s what Calvin means by the “mystical union.” Note that the new life in which we participate is from outside, so this is still a Protestant concept.

While it’s not always explicit, I believe that having faith and being in Christ are the same thing, that it is faith that unites us to Christ and makes us in Christ. The closest I can find to explicit equation of the two is Gal 2:17, which talks about being justified in Christ, or better, 2:25-27: “But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” Cf. Gal 5:6

 

[~Anastasia~]

Okay, so if I have died and risen from the dead with Christ, I'm saved. But suppose I'm an unbeliever. How can I die with Him? I think the Bible is clear that we're saved by faith. What must I believe to be saved?
Currently I think the answer is: Believe that Jesus died for your sins (he took the punishment), was buried and rose again.
But what do you think? What must I believe?

Forgive me, but it sounds like you are trying to distill something like the minimum we can do and "be saved"? I'm not speculating bad motives for that (there can be good ones), but I find it a rather dangerous approach.

Remember the demons believe, and tremble. Salvation is not a simple mental assent to a few core facts. SAVING FAITH is much more than that. And attempts to distill it to the least possible level risk offering false assurance.

 

[Knee V]

Hedrick's most recent post hits the nail on the head with respect to "faith".

When Paul is talking about "Faith" vs "Works", he is not talking about "Trust" vs "Human Effort", or something else along those lines. Rather, he is having a very specific discussion about the superiority of Christ over the Law of Moses; which fits into his broader theme of battling the Judaizers of his day, who, at least in part, considered the Law of Moses as THE means by which man was justified before God. They considered Christ to be another commandment to be tacked onto the rest of the Commandments

Paul is making the case that Christ is not another piece of the Law of Moses, but that He is the very way by which we are justified. Paul emphasizes "Faith in Christ" compared to "Works of the Law". "Faith in Christ", which more often than not is in the context of our baptism into Christ, is Paul's way of talking about the fact that Christ Himself is the way to be reconciled to God.

"Works" refers specifically to "Works of the Law". In other words, the idea that our justification and relationship with God is a function of the ritual observance of the Law of Moses.

It is the way of Christ pitted against the way of the Torah. One system saves us, and the other doesn't.

In that context, "faith" refers broadly to the idea of aligning ourselves with Christ. That does not rule out the idea of that being some kind of "path". In fact, the New Testament over and over frames the idea of being in Christ withe following after a path. Christ Himself repeatedly says to people "Follow Me", often after telling them to first deny themselves and take up their cross. All throughout Paul's epistles being in Christ (especially dying and rising with Him) is seen in terms of our baptism into Christ. The language is so strong that one can say that faith in Christ and being baptized into Christ are one and the same thing, or at least that baptism is one integral function of our faith in Christ

In short, the idea that "faith" is something like "trust" or something else which is the opposite of "effort" is simply a conversation that does not exist in the New Testament, and is a fairly recent innovation.

 

[Knee V]

I remember struggling with the idea of Christ's resurrection in my Evangelical late teens and early 20s, and it was pretty much the exact same struggle: if Christ's suffering and death is the thing that objectively saves me by putting my sin on Christ, then His resurrection doesn'the actually contribute to my salvation. If, then, His resurrection doesn't actually accomplish anything vital to my salvation, then why does Paul use such strong language when talking about the His resurrection, that it is THE thing that everything hinges on?

I had that problem for years. When the New Testament, and the Christian faith in general, are looked at from a perspective other than "Christ took my punishment and I took His roghteousness", the resurrection of Christ begins to take its rightful position.

In general, if a theological outlook has the resurrection of Christ fundamentally as an afterthought and of it is difficult to make His resurrection absolutely vital to everything, that theological outlook should be discarded.

 

[OcifferPls]

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:17 states:

And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

People can emphasize whatever aspect they want to with whatever amount of zeal and fervor they see fit, but can they make the faith make sense, and can they explain the logic behind this verse?

In the absence of a better explanation, I'll go with Christ was crucified, raised up and thus vindicated, such that instead of being condemned with Christ, we are indeed justified by the faith of Christ. If it were not so, we would still be in our sins.

 

[Fish14]

Forgive me, but it sounds like you are trying to distill something like the minimum we can do and "be saved"?

I have never heard a non-Protestant speak about salvation. Usually they don't know or think it's a very "mysterious" thing. Please, tell me ! What is your complex, "undistilled" gospel? How can we end up in Heaven?

2 Corinthians 11:3

By the way, here are some of the verses describing penal substitution:

• Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: The chastisement of our peace was upon him; And with his stripes we are healed.
  
• 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
• 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
• 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

 

[hedrick]

No one doubts that Christ suffered for us. The point is that this is only part of the story. He was also raised for us. And the "for us" works because we are united to him in faith, and through that die and rise with him.

Calvin is considered the creator of penal substitution. But he agrees with this: "Our salvation may be thus divided between the death and the resurrection of Christ: by the former sin was abolished and death annihilated; by the latter righteousness was restored and life revived, the power and efficacy of the former being still bestowed upon us by means of the latter. Paul accordingly affirms, that he was declared to be the Son of God by his resurrection (Rom. 1:4),"

This is the same thing Paul says in Rom 6: We died with Christ to sin and are raised with him to new life. For Calvin, salvation involves all of that.

Furthermore, in a discussion of justification, he notes "I acknowledge that we are devoid of this incomparable gift until Christ become ours. Therefore, to that union of the head and members, the residence of Christ in our hearts, in fine, the mystical union, we assign the highest rank, Christ when he becomes ours making us partners with him in the gifts with which he was endued. Hence we do not view him as at a distance and without us, but as we have put him on, and been ingrafted into his body, he deigns to make us one with himself, and, therefore, we glory in having a fellowship of righteousness with him."

I mention this because your concept of salvation has at times seemed to keep Christ "at a distance," to make it just about him dying but not about us putting him on. Calvin's concept of the "fellowship of righteousness," by the way, is that through our union with him, not only does he take our sins, but we participate in his righteousness.

You may, of course, choose not to follow Calvin in all this. But this is the original context of which penal substitution was a part.

 

[hedrick]

Incidentally I have a concern about the question you asked: “What is your complex, "undistilled" gospel? How can we end up in Heaven?” You seem here to me doing exactly what you say above not to do, making the Gospel about us. Is the Gospel just about us ending up in heaven?

That’s not the way Jesus used the term Gospel. For him the good news was always the good news about the Kingdom. "As you go, proclaim the good news, ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’" (Mat 10:7)

The news was that Jesus was bringing the Kingdom. That it was present now among us. That we should sell all we have if necessary to be part of it. The Kingdom is God’s rule. For Jesus, the Gospel was that God had now begun what he promised Israel in the prophets: establishing his rule on earth, the new covenant where his teaching is written in our hearts, where the wolf and the lamb lie down together. The Gospel is about God establishing his rule, not the minimum we need to be saved from hell.

Paul seems to have used "Gospel" in an even wider sense, as the whole message he preached about Christ.

 

[truefiction1]

I remember struggling with the idea of Christ's resurrection in my Evangelical late teens and early 20s, and it was pretty much the exact same struggle: if Christ's suffering and death is the thing that objectively saves me by putting my sin on Christ, then His resurrection doesn'the actually contribute to my salvation. If, then, His resurrection doesn't actually accomplish anything vital to my salvation, then why does Paul use such strong language when talking about the His resurrection, that it is THE thing that everything hinges on?

I had that problem for years. When the New Testament, and the Christian faith in general, are looked at from a perspective other than "Christ took my punishment and I took His roghteousness", the resurrection of Christ begins to take its rightful position.

In general, if a theological outlook has the resurrection of Christ fundamentally as an afterthought and of it is difficult to make His resurrection absolutely vital to everything, that theological outlook should be discarded.

A human being is a seamless composite of spirit and body. When these are torn apart at death, we cease to be human beings: it destroys the very essence of who and what we are. Without resurrection, we are not saved. Salvation is a restoration of what was lost by sin, but even more than that, it is a superior glorification above and beyond what ever was, regarding what it is to be a human being. A human being was not built for angelic (purely spirit) existence. Humans who have died are barely alive, even if awaiting resurrection in Abraham's bosom. Our resurrection, which has been revealed and foretold by Christ's Resurrection, is Life for us who truly believe that Jesus Christ is the resurrected Savior and God.

 

[truefiction1]

I have never heard a non-Protestant speak about salvation. Usually they don't know or think it's a very "mysterious" thing. Please, tell me ! What is your complex, "undistilled" gospel? How can we end up in Heaven?

2 Corinthians 11:3

By the way, here are some of the verses describing penal substitution:

• Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: The chastisement of our peace was upon him; And with his stripes we are healed.
  
• 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
• 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
• 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I know this is directed at sister Anastasia, but I'll repeat here what I replied elsewhere:

A human being is a seamless composite of spirit and body. When these two things are torn apart at death, we cease to be human beings: it destroys the very essence of who and what we are. Without resurrection, we are not saved. Salvation is a restoration of what was lost by sin, but even more than that, it is a superior glorification above and beyond what ever was, regarding what it is to be a human being. A human being was not built for angelic (purely spirit) existence. Humans who have died are barely alive, even if awaiting resurrection in Abraham's bosom. Our resurrection, which has been revealed and foretold by Christ's Resurrection, is Life for us who truly believe that Jesus Christ is the resurrected Savior and God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I have never heard a non-Protestant speak about salvation. Usually they don't know or think it's a very "mysterious" thing. Please, tell me ! What is your complex, "undistilled" gospel? How can we end up in Heaven?

2 Corinthians 11:3

By the way, here are some of the verses describing penal substitution:

• Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: The chastisement of our peace was upon him; And with his stripes we are healed.
  
• 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
• 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
• 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Hello again, Fish.

First, let me say that I was a Protestant for 40+ years. It's not a matter of me never having heard what various Protestants believe about salvation. Rather, it is that there is more depth and richness to what Christ has done, and also to how it then affects us, than the desire for a simple distillation.

Salvation is not, for most of us, a moment in time. It can be ... the thief on the Cross who confessed Christ had no more life to live. Neither do the martyrs who convert, seeing Christians martyred, and are immediately martyred as well. These have every indication that they will be judged "saved" at the final judgement, when they had just that moment of salvation.

But what about a person who hears the Gospel, believes and .... what? Goes on to live another 20 or 70 years, not being transformed into the likeness of Christ in all those years? Many Protestants would say they were "never really saved". In the end, that assessment may end up being true, but Scripture speaks a great deal about running the race, persevering, remaining in faith, and so on.

No one is "saved" ultimately until we have been resurrected and there has been a final judgement. At least if you believe as warned in Hebrews that it is possible to be once enlightened, and then fall away. So what happens during our lives, matters.

I'll first answer about penal substitution. It has some true enough aspects within it. But let me say it this way - Christ's SUFFERING was the payment the Father demanded. The Father is either unable or unwilling to forgive anyone of any sin until SOMEONE suffers, and suffers brutally - He's going to extract His pound of flesh in seeing someone in torment - before He will forgive.

There's several problems with this. First - this means God has a problem. Somehow, the cosmic laws of the universe HE created, won't allow Him to have mercy on whoever He might desire, if He desires. Secondly, it essentially pits the Father and the Son against one another, which is unthinkable. Third, it makes God the Father a bit of a bloodthirsty tyrant, which is NOT in His actual nature (God only described Himself as an attribute once - God is LOVE). And when were the sacrificial animals in the OT system ever tortured before being sacrificed, as part of the atonement? They never were. God never demanded suffering.

Christ did die for our sins. Blood was shed. We know full well that He was the Lamb slain. I would never dispute that.

What I disagree with in penal substitution is (1) that God is constrained and (2) that it is suffering that He demands.

A simple explanation of how we are saved? We are saved by being changed into the likeness of Christ, by Him being formed in us, by the grace of God and with His help. Our part is not to act in ways that thwart that process. And yes, faith is essential.

Because salvation, for us, is not a "ticket to heaven" (our eternal home will actually be the restored earth, by the way - heaven is a possible intermediary state before the Day of the Lord for those who die in Him) ... but salvation for us is much more. It is to be restored to God's original plan for mankind, which was to be in His image and likeness, and growing more so, and in eternal fellowship with Him.

I hope this helps explain what I mean a bit.

 

[truefiction1]

Okay, so if I have died and risen from the dead with Christ, I'm saved. But suppose I'm an unbeliever. How can I die with Him? I think the Bible is clear that we're saved by faith. What must I believe to be saved?
Currently I think the answer is: Believe that Jesus died for your sins (he took the punishment), was buried and rose again.
But what do you think? What must I believe?

To be saved, you must “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” (Luke 10:27). This is the same as believing in Jesus Christ and keeping all His commandments.

 

[Fish14]

But what about a person who hears the Gospel, believes and .... what? Goes on to live another 20 or 70 years, not being transformed into the likeness of Christ in all those years? Many Protestants would say they were "never really saved". In the end, that assessment may end up being true, but Scripture speaks a great deal about running the race, persevering, remaining in faith, and so on.

Yes, I believe that such a person was never saved. But we can know if we are truly saved (1 John 5:13) and we are to trust God, not ourselves, to complete the good work He has started in us (Philippians 1:6)

No one is "saved" ultimately until we have been resurrected and there has been a final judgement. At least if you believe as warned in Hebrews that it is possible to be once enlightened, and then fall away. So what happens during our lives, matters.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Notice how long the underlined part is? Why won't the writer of Hebrews just say "...it is impossible for believers, if they shall fall away, to..."? I may be wrong, but I think it's because the passage isn't describing a believer but someone who nearly gets saved.

I'll first answer about penal substitution. It has some true enough aspects within it. But let me say it this way - Christ's SUFFERING was the payment the Father demanded. The Father is either unable or unwilling to forgive anyone of any sin until SOMEONE suffers, and suffers brutally - He's going to extract His pound of flesh in seeing someone in torment - before He will forgive.

There's several problems with this. First - this means God has a problem. Somehow, the cosmic laws of the universe HE created, won't allow Him to have mercy on whoever He might desire, if He desires. Secondly, it essentially pits the Father and the Son against one another, which is unthinkable. Third, it makes God the Father a bit of a bloodthirsty tyrant, which is NOT in His actual nature (God only described Himself as an attribute once - God is LOVE). And when were the sacrificial animals in the OT system ever tortured before being sacrificed, as part of the atonement? They never were. God never demanded suffering.

Christ did die for our sins. Blood was shed. We know full well that He was the Lamb slain. I would never dispute that.

What I disagree with in penal substitution is (1) that God is constrained and (2) that it is suffering that He demands.

1) If God was constrained, he couldn't save us. But he did, through sacrificing Jesus.
2) Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

A simple explanation of how we are saved? We are saved by being changed into the likeness of Christ, by Him being formed in us, by the grace of God and with His help. Our part is not to act in ways that thwart that process. And yes, faith is essential.

For me this explains the Christian life itself, not salvation (the start of it).

 

[John Hyperspace]

The purpose of His death was to die for our sins, and thus pay for them, but what about the resurrection?
Does it just prove that He is God?

One of the things Jesus was doing was showing "the way" to becoming a son of God. His ministry was one long lesson on how this is approached. When Jesus would teach about His teachings being able to give spiritual sight to the spiritual blind, He would perform an earthly "sign" which was an endorsement of God to His words; God's way of confirming that the spiritual application was true. So Jesus would basically say, "Listen to Me and though you be spiritually blind, you will receive spiritual sight" then He would perform a "sign" of healing literally blind, and by this God would say "Approved" and Jesus would say "See?"

His ministry was basically, "Love one another, and do not resist the things that are happening to you, these things you consider "bad" are done by the will of God, so do not resist persecution, do not resist evil, bear your cross of burden and hardship, it is to the purpose of manifesting you as a son of God; submit willingly to these things and do not fight them, but have faith in God, that He does these things because of love, and that you may be called a son of God; this is the way to the Father-Son relationship" then when Jesus was resurrected and the saying fulfilled "this day have I begotten you" (Acts 13:33) it was a sign and God saying "Approved" and Jesus saying "See?"

All of these earthly happenings were signs of God's approval of His son, and what His Son was teaching.

 

[hedrick]

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Notice how long the underlined part is? Why won't the writer of Hebrews just say "...it is impossible for believers, if they shall fall away, to..."? I may be wrong, but I think it's because the passage isn't describing a believer but someone who nearly gets saved.

I looked up Calvin's exegesis, since he was one of the originators of the perseverance of the saints. He sees the various phrases underlined as showing various aspects of salvation, although since they fell away they obviously didn't have the "Spirit of regeneration." As he says "by this they are distinguished from the reprobate; for they are renewed after his image and receive the earnest of the Spirit in hope of the future inheritance, and by the same Spirit the Gospel is sealed in their hearts."

(not from Calvin) The reason for all the words is that the author wanted to emphasize that even if someone had experienced all of those elements of salvation, if he rejected Christ, there was no way back.

Calvin notes that the falling away that can’t be reversed isn’t just some individual sin. It is a complete rejection of God.

I’m not going to comment either on my own evaluation of the passage, nor on perseverance of the saints, since this discussion is complex enough without taking on a whole new topic.

 

[Knee V]

If we're looking for something concise, here's this: Be united unto Christ so that you can have eternal life and be freed from the power of sin, death, and the Devil.

What the more historical confessions are unwilling to do is to reduce the Gospel to one idea and an accompanying catch phrase. There are many ways to describe what it is, and the ability to reduce it to a single idea is often dependent upon the context of the person you're talking to. It may be beneficial for one person to hear one particular thing emphasized, while it may be beneficial for another person to hear something else emphasized. Thus, a significant part of evangelizing is getting to know people on a personal level.

Simple, pat answers can have their place, but life is more complex than that. We are not trying to be uber mysterious or anything.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Quite simply put, Jesus has victory over sin and death. If he was not raised from the dead he would not have victory over the death. It is from this point that we should look at what it means that He has victory over death.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57

One of the things I like about the bible is its simple truths. It is good to gain a deeper understanding, so please dont take this as meaning your comments do not have value, but I think the starting point when evangelizing should be the simple truth. Being a Christian is not about having a vast intellectual understanding of scripture, it is about accepting Jesus as you saviour. It is good to gain further understanding as we grow and mature as Christians but we need to ensure we are not overdoing it when evangelizing. I have seen many people put off by witnessing that is too complex when it doesnt need to be.

This discussion reminds me of one I had at work a few years ago about how people think. We came to the conclusion that when I am building ideas I do so like building a wall withcompleting each level solidly and then moving to the next level. My manager at the time used a different thought process we used a metaphore of like building a frame and then adding bits around that frame. If we are making things too complex we not only risk losing people who do not understand the complexity of what they are being told but also if we are not speaking to them in the way they think it can confuse them further. As someone said above, know the person you are talking to. I would say if not don't over-complicate it and build on the basics as they want you to. It is good to be able to show you have a deeper understanding but let them lead to it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sorry if you have already answered these questions I continually come up with, but how does my faith enable me to die and resurrect with Christ?

Why do you believe you're saved?

• In the biblical gospel of grace, the answer starts with "Christ": We are saved because Christ died for our sins ... was buried ... rose again (1 Cor. 15)
  
• If your answer starts with "I", you have a legalistic gospel: "I did this and that to earn my way to Heaven, I am good enough to go to Heaven, I prayed a prayer to be saved"

So should I think I'm saved because I died with Jesus and I resurrected with Him? It sounds like we both do something for my salvation. Or do you mean "God killed and resurrected me and Himself"?

You're right, the Gospel is Christ died, but it continues, for you. Here is a statement found in the Lutheran Confessions, specifically Luther's Large Catechism:

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves."

The objective reality of Christ's saving work is brought to us, and we are therefore joined to it; not through our efforts, but by God's grace. The grace of God operates upon us in this way: Granting faith to us to trust in Him, and uniting us to Christ, in His death and resurrection. This is also the significance of Holy Baptism (c.f. Romans ch. 6).

I have believed the gospel of Corinthians 15 with penal substitution. I didn't care much about the resurrection part, until I found a flaw in my theory. Why will God resurrect me? I just don't die twice if the God takes my death penalty away. I still have to die because of Adam's sin.
How can I take part of Christ's resurrection? What do I need to believe??

I hope I don’t sound hostile.

You are resurrected because that's what salvation means. The hope of the Gospel isn't that you will become a disembodied ghost and float around among clouds; the hope of the Gospel is that God, in Christ, is restoring, healing, and mending the world; so Christ has defeated death, destroyed its power, and in Him there is life. Not some kind of fake life lived as a ghost, but real bodily life as part of God's good creation. Remember Genesis ch. 1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth ... and God saw all that He made and saw it was exceedingly good" God is unwilling for His creation to perish, but will redeem, restore, and save it; and this He has done, is doing, and will do in and through Jesus Christ. That is why Christ is risen, as the Victor over hell and death, the first fruits of those who will be raised; and it is in this hope that we likewise look forward to the resurrection of the dead at His coming: when, as St. Paul says, "Where O Death is your victory? Where O Death is your sting?" Death is defeated, and death will be defeated.

That is our salvation, the forgiveness of our sins, peace and reconciliation with God, union with Christ, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting in the age to come. That's why Paul says, "If the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen" and if "Christ is not risen, then you are still dead in your sins, your faith in vain, your hope is in vain, and we are to be pitied above all other people". But Christ is risen, the dead will rise, there is hope, our faith is not in vain: Christ will come again, the dead will be raised, and all creation shall be made new again for the eternal glory of God. And we shall share in it, of it, in the presence and peace of our God forever.

-CryptoLutheran