What is the purpose behind an eternal hell?

[Oncedeceived]

Like what?
Am I supposed to guess, or do you care to explain it?

I think you and everyone else including me believe the things we believe because we feel we have good reason to believe what we believe.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Please try to comprehend the question I'm asking.

How can you KNOW that X is true, if it can't be shown to be true?

How do you differentiate X from something that is false, if you can't show X to be true?
How do you find out what is true and what isn't?

Please understand that I understand, however, if there are true things that we know can't be demonstrated; we know then that truth is not only true if you can demonstrate it to be true. Do you disagree, if so why?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I think you and everyone else including me believe the things we believe because we feel we have good reason to believe what we believe.

Are you capable of giving straightforward answers???

Again, you said that you don't dissmiss Islam like I dissmiss all other religions.
Please explain. Note that I'm not asking you to explain why you DO believe in christianity. Rather, it is about why you do NOT believe in Islam.

You claimed that your rejection of islam is different from my rejection of religion in general. Please explain.

Why do you reject Islam and how is it any different from my rejection of, lets say, Hinduism.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Please understand that I understand

Your posts don't show that at all.

if there are true things that we know can't be demonstrated;

Then how can we know what those "true things" are, and that they are true at all?

we know then that truth is not only true if you can demonstrate it to be true. Do you disagree, if so why?

I'm not asking you about unkown truths to be true.
I'm asking you about KNOWING truths.

How can you know that X is true, if it can't be shown to be true? If it can't be differentiated from what is false?


Maybe an example will help, because this keeps going in rather silly circles....

Let's suppose that it is true that an undetectable, immaterial dragon follows me everywhere I go. We don't know this to be true, because an undectable immaterial dragon can't be demonstrated to exist.

So, the question is, how can we KNOW that such a dragon exists and follows me around, if it can't be shown to be the case?

Note that it can't be disproven either.

 

[anonymous person]

Are you capable of giving straightforward answers???

Again, you said that you don't dissmiss Islam like I dissmiss all other religions.
Please explain. Note that I'm not asking you to explain why you DO believe in christianity. Rather, it is about why you do NOT believe in Islam.

You claimed that your rejection of islam is different from my rejection of religion in general. Please explain.

Why do you reject Islam and how is it any different from my rejection of, lets say, Hinduism.

We reject Islam because we know that God has revealed Himself in these last days, in His Son Jesus.

We reject Islam for the same reason you reject Flat-Earthism. You don't reject Flat-Earthism because you know everything there is to know about Flat-Earthism or because you are an expert on it. You reject it because you know the earth is round. Simple.

If Jesus was who the Bible claims He is, then every other worldview that contradicts Christianity in this, is wrong in the same way any other answer besides "4" is wrong for the equation 2+2=

But we have addressed all of this already in these threads.

 

[DogmaHunter]

We reject Islam because we know that God has revealed Himself in these last days, in His Son Jesus.

So, you evaluate things based on a priori beliefs.
Do you consider that rational?

We reject Islam for the same reason you reject Flat-Earthism. You don't reject Flat-Earthism because you know everything there is to know about Flat-Earthism or because you are an expert on it. You reject it because you know the earth is round. Simple.

Wrong.
I reject a flat earth because the evidence doesn't support the claims it makes.

Having said that, "round earth" isn't just some other a priori "belief" that I have.
It's what the evidence actually supports.

Which is completely different from saying "I can't believe X, because I already dogmatically believe Y and it's mutually exclusive"

If Jesus was who the Bible claims He is

If... indeed.

, then every other worldview that contradicts Christianity in this, is wrong in the same way any other answer besides "4" is wrong for the equation 2+2=

And if the universe was created 5 seconds ago, then every other worldview that contradicts that, is wrong.

So, to conclude......
If this is the case, then yes, you don't reject islam like I reject it.
I actually reject it based on reason (a lack of evidence), not just because I already happen to believe something else.......

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We reject Islam because we know that God has revealed Himself in these last days, in His Son Jesus.

We reject Islam for the same reason you reject Flat-Earthism. You don't reject Flat-Earthism because you know everything there is to know about Flat-Earthism or because you are an expert on it. You reject it because you know the earth is round. Simple.

If Jesus was who the Bible claims He is, then every other worldview that contradicts Christianity in this, is wrong in the same way any other answer besides "4" is wrong for the equation 2+2=

But we have addressed all of this already in these threads.

Meh. You would reject anything that conflicts with your worldview anyway, even if were supported by the preponderance of evidence.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Are you capable of giving straightforward answers???

I am.

Again, you said that you don't dissmiss Islam like I dissmiss all other religions.
Please explain. Note that I'm not asking you to explain why you DO believe in christianity. Rather, it is about why you do NOT believe in Islam.

I do not believe in Islam because God identifies as the God of the Bible and not the Islamic God. God being the God of the Bible can not be the God of the Bible and the Islamic God as the God of the Bible and the god of Islam are not one in the same.

You claimed that your rejection of islam is different from my rejection of religion in general. Please explain.

Why do you reject Islam and how is it any different from my rejection of, lets say, Hinduism.

All religions worship different gods. God claims to be the God of the Bible. Reality confirms the God of the Bible.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Your posts don't show that at all.

I disagree.

Then how can we know what those "true things" are, and that they are true at all?

There are many ways to determine truth. There are some truths that can't be demonstrated but are necessary to determine other truths. Yet, if there are truths that can't be demonstrated claiming that truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated is demonstrated to be incorrect.

I'm not asking you about unkown truths to be true.
I'm asking you about KNOWING truths.

We KNOW the sun rises every morning but we can't demonstrate that it will rise tomorrow morning. We know that the universe is orderly and can be studied and we can learn about it but we can't demonstrate that the order of the universe will be the same tomorrow as it is today.

How can you know that X is true, if it can't be shown to be true? If it can't be differentiated from what is false?

Why can't you understand that there are truths that can't be demonstrated and since there are, not all truth can be demonstrated?

Maybe an example will help, because this keeps going in rather silly circles....

Let's suppose that it is true that an undetectable, immaterial dragon follows me everywhere I go. We don't know this to be true, because an undectable immaterial dragon can't be demonstrated to exist.

So, the question is, how can we KNOW that such a dragon exists and follows me around, if it can't be shown to be the case?

Note that it can't be disproven either.

If it were true as you say in this scenario, then all truth can't be demonstrated as I am claiming. Your analogy would prove that all true things can not be demonstrated. Now most certainly there are true things that can be demonstrated and those things we can have more certainty about them, but the statement truth must be demonstrated to be true is invalid and can't be demonstrated itself.

 

[Oncedeceived]

So, you evaluate things based on a priori beliefs.
Do you consider that rational?

Don't act like that is irrational. You too evaluate things based on a priori beliefs as well. You must if you evaluate by scientific methods.

Wrong.
I reject a flat earth because the evidence doesn't support the claims it makes.

Which is why we believe in Christianity.

Having said that, "round earth" isn't just some other a priori "belief" that I have.
It's what the evidence actually supports.

Right, we all believe what best fits with reality.

Which is completely different from saying "I can't believe X, because I already dogmatically believe Y and it's mutually exclusive"

You are misrepresenting the argument. We believe x due to the way x fits with reality and if y doesn't fit with reality and has opposing claims it is dismissed as untrue.

If...

indeed.



And if the universe was created 5 seconds ago, then every other worldview that contradicts that, is wrong.

So, to conclude......
If this is the case, then yes, you don't reject islam like I reject it.
I actually reject it based on reason (a lack of evidence), not just because I already happen to believe something else.......

We have reason, based on evidence to believe Christianity is true. You dismiss all religions in the same way because you have an a priori worldview that dismisses God or gods.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We have reason, based on evidence to believe Christianity is true. You dismiss all religions in the same way because you have an a priori worldview that dismisses God or gods.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, atheism is the outcome of my assessment of religious claims.

 

[bhsmte]

Are you capable of giving straightforward answers???

Again, you said that you don't dissmiss Islam like I dissmiss all other religions.
Please explain. Note that I'm not asking you to explain why you DO believe in christianity. Rather, it is about why you do NOT believe in Islam.

You claimed that your rejection of islam is different from my rejection of religion in general. Please explain.

Why do you reject Islam and how is it any different from my rejection of, lets say, Hinduism.

Good luck on the straight answer thing.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, atheism is the outcome of my assessment of religious claims.

Ok, but of course without any interaction with God limits your assessment. Not only that, atheism doesn't fit with reality as well IMO.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I do not believe in Islam because God identifies as the God of the Bible and not the Islamic God. God being the God of the Bible can not be the God of the Bible and the Islamic God as the God of the Bible and the god of Islam are not one in the same.

Translation: "I am not a muslim because I am already a christian..."

Great..... What a reasoned argument against Islam.... (not).

All religions worship different gods. God claims to be the God of the Bible. Reality confirms the God of the Bible.

You mean... the Bible says it is correct and you happen to believe that.
The Quran makes the exact same claim though. And muslims happen to believe that one.

 

[DogmaHunter]

There are many ways to determine truth. There are some truths that can't be demonstrated but are necessary to determine other truths. Yet, if there are truths that can't be demonstrated claiming that truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated is demonstrated to be incorrect.

I'm sorry... but.... what?
Care to rephrase this, because I can't make any sense of it.

We KNOW the sun rises every morning but we can't demonstrate that it will rise tomorrow morning. We know that the universe is orderly and can be studied and we can learn about it but we can't demonstrate that the order of the universe will be the same tomorrow as it is today.

So... you don't know those things which can't be demonstrated?
How is that any different from what I said?

Why can't you understand that there are truths that can't be demonstrated and since there are, not all truth can be demonstrated?

Ow dear....

Do you know what the word "KNOW" means?
How can you KNOW that these things are, in fact, true, if you can't demonstrate them to be true? If you can't differentiate them from what is false?

If it were true as you say in this scenario, then all truth can't be demonstrated as I am claiming.

For crying out loud.......
I'm asking about how you can KNOW about it, if it can't be shown to be the case - even if it IS the case. How can you KNOW to be the case, if it can't be shown as such?

Your analogy would prove that all true things can not be demonstrated.

I'm asking about how you can KNOW about it. How many times must it be repeated????

 

[DogmaHunter]

Don't act like that is irrational.

It most definatly IS irrational. Because your a priori beliefs can be wrong.
And if you are going to exclude anything by default just because it contradicts your a priori beliefs, then you are being irrational (and dogmatic).

You too evaluate things based on a priori beliefs as well.

Such as?

You must if you evaluate by scientific methods.

Nope. Quite the opposite. In science, claims fall or stand on their own merrit. In science, we acknowledge that our previous models can be wrong.
So we don't just reject claims by default, just because it happens to contradict previous models.

We have reason, based on evidence to believe Christianity is true.

No, you don't. Which is why religions need "faith" to be believed.

You dismiss all religions in the same way because you have an a priori worldview that dismisses God or gods.

No. I dissmiss religions because not a single one can be shown to be correct.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Ok, but of course without any interaction with God limits your assessment. Not only that, atheism doesn't fit with reality as well IMO.

There's nothing in atheism TO fit with reality, because atheism doesn't make any claims about reality.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Ok, but of course without any interaction with God limits your assessment. Not only that, atheism doesn't fit with reality as well IMO.

In my assessment, there is no reason to believe that anyone has interacted with a god or gods.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Translation: "I am not a muslim because I am already a christian..."

I wasn't always a Christian.

Great..... What a reasoned argument against Islam.... (not).

I have a multitude of reasoning for not believing Islam. Foremost and the most important is God's revelation to me personally, that doesn't mean that I haven't researched the Islamic faith.

You mean... the Bible says it is correct and you happen to believe that.

Wrong. The Bible only confirms what God has reveled to me personally. Don't get me know, I know that for you that isn't convincing and it shouldn't be but for someone that has it is.

The Quran makes the exact same claim though. And muslims happen to believe that one.

Muhammad was a believer of the OT Bible and it is no surprise that his theology would be similar.[/Quote]

 

[Oncedeceived]

There's nothing in atheism TO fit with reality, because atheism doesn't make any claims about reality.

Is that so? So you don't think that believing that there are no gods is not based on your reality? Interesting.