What is the purpose behind an eternal hell?

[food4thought]

You should then understand, why 2/3 of the worlds population consider christianity, to be false.

1/3rd of the world population is yet to even hear of Christ, but I understand what you mean... you assume I did not give Islam a fair appraisal... I can say with certainty that Muhammad was at best ill informed of the teachings of Christianity, as he terribly misrepresents them in his writings. If he didn't even know the previous teachings of the God he supposedly served, and grossly misrepresented what those teachings were, he shows himself to be a false prophet.

 

[bhsmte]

1/3rd of the world population is yet to even hear of Christ, but I understand what you mean... you assume I did not give Islam a fair appraisal... I can say with certainty that Muhammad was at best ill informed of the teachings of Christianity, as he terribly misrepresents them in his writings. If he didn't even know the previous teachings of the God he supposedly served, and grossly misrepresented what those teachings were, he shows himself to be a false prophet.

1/3 have not heard of christ?

Where did you get that number from?

 

[food4thought]

1/3 have not heard of christ?

Where did you get that number from?

I forget where I heard it, and I should not have said "heard of Christ", I should have said "had the gospel preached to them"... most of the Muslim world (I count them as unreached because they have a gross misrepresentation of Christianity in their scriptures), most of India, most of southeast Asia. A surprising number of people in the west do not know exactly what the gospel is. Many people in Africa. A large number of people in the former Soviet block countries. I think 1/3rd is probably pretty accurate, but I'll have to do some research to be sure.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

What would you have God do? Forgive everyone no matter what? Condemn everyone? Create automatons with no capacity to love?

If a God exists, he or she can do whatever they like. I have the capacity to decide for myself if those actions are moral or immoral. If someone dishes out eternal punishment for simply not being convinced of their existence, I find this to be capricious and deserving of no respect.

A good God would not create beings only to damn them without providing for their salvation. And a good God does not desire relationship with automatons, only free beings to bless and be blessed in a relationship of love.

This sounds like you're projecting what you want a God to be defined as. Is the torture and killing of another person necessary for salvation? If Jesus were alive today and told you he was going to have himself tortured and killed for you, would you allow it? Would it be moral for you to allow it?

I pity you for seeing it that way, because if we are to be saved, it HAS to come vicariously because we are completely unable to satisfy the demands of justice on our own and still enter heaven.

Why do we need to be saved? This basically makes us objects in a cruel experiment. In my opinion, it's an insult to humanity. Humanity has accomplished great things. Do we make mistakes? Sure. But it is our responsibility to correct those mistakes on our own. To suggest we need a savior is like saying we are basically worthless. I don't accept that nonsense. I don't accept telling that to young children either.

Without Christ's sacrifice, we would forever be under God's righteous judgement for our multitude of sins.

So, we need to toss all of our sins onto someone else and that someone needs to be tortured and killed? That is scapegoating. It removes all of your own personal responsibility. Kill someone? no big deal, just ask Jesus for forgiveness. Cheat on your wife? It's all good, just ask for forgiveness and it's all good. Prey on children? Hey, nobody is perfect, just ask Jesus for forgiveness. This is nonsense. I am responsible for my own actions. If I wrong someone, it is my responsibility to correct that wrong, accept the consequences of those actions and try to become a better person.

What I think is irrevelent. God sees it as righteous and just, and that is the only opinion that matters in this case.

This saddens me. You're telling me you'd accept that someone who raped and murdered your child gets eternal paradise while your child is not afforded this because they simply did not believe? In my opinion, this is the wish to be an abject slave.

For it was and is human pride and selfishness above all other things that makes the world such a horrifying place

I'm sorry you feel that way. I think the world is very beautiful and we are capable of great things. Do bad things happen? Are there bad people? Sure. But life isn't fair. We must do our best to improve the world. Punish evil when we see it and reward good when we see it as best we can.

As for torture, you need to read my post on the first page of this thread to get an idea of how I believe hell is/will be. I do not believe that God tortures people in fire for all eternity.

Thank you for pointing that out. Sorry for projecting what I thought your idea of hell was. I do have to ask, how do you know this? How do you determine what is literal and what is not? It sounds like you've just made up in your head what you want God to be. There are many people who do think hell is a place of fire and torture. How does I determine who is right and who isn't and more importantly, how do you? Are you just making it up in your head or do you actually know?

 

[bhsmte]

I forget where I heard it, and I should not have said "heard of Christ", I should have said "had the gospel preached to them"... most of the Muslim world (I count them as unreached because they have a gross misrepresentation of Christianity in their scriptures), most of India, most of southeast Asia. A surprising number of people in the west do not know exactly what the gospel is. Many people in Africa. A large number of people in the former Soviet block countries. I think 1/3rd is probably pretty accurate, but I'll have to do some research to be sure.

I would imagine, most christians have not had other religions preached to them either.

 

[Davian]

Not everything that is true can be demonstrated.

Then you are not using the word "true" in the common vernacular.

Truth itself can't be demonstrated.

Things that are actually true are by definition, in accordance with fact or reality. Until they can be shown to be in accordance with fact or reality, they remain truth claims.

The statement was invalid.

Your statement is simply [fallacious] special pleading for your truth claims.

 

[Davian]

...
My answer stands for those who never heard the gospel clearly preached.

I do not know if I have heard it "clearly preached". I have heard stories that required that I believe that virtually all of mainstream science is wildly inaccurate. Is that what you are speaking of?

For those that have heard and rejected it, the Bible is clear that they will not enter heaven.

How does that compare to other acts that one might commit? If I were to slaughter everyone in my neighbourhood, would that preclude my entry into this "Heaven"?

 

[food4thought]

If a God exists, he or she can do whatever they like. I have the capacity to decide for myself if those actions are moral or immoral. If someone dishes out eternal punishment for simply not being convinced of their existence, I find this to be capricious and deserving of no respect.

Thank you for taking the time to write such a long and thoughtful post. 1st, you will not be forgiven because of your unbelief; but, if you continue in unbelief, you will be condemned (John 3), not for unbelief specifically, but for rebellion against your Creator (Romans). Every unloving, selfish, and arrogant act/failure to act is an affront to a perfectly good and holy God, and we have chosen to do these things despite our conscience (which in part was given to us by God, but some things are culturally inserted/changed) which tells us these things are wrong (Romans). We have all rebelled against God by choosing not to do what is loving and good... that is why we will be condemned unless we accept God's pardon (John 3), which takes humility to admit that we need forgiveness/salvation because we cannot be perfect on our own (Romans).

This sounds like you're projecting what you want a God to be defined as. Is the torture and killing of another person necessary for salvation? If Jesus were alive today and told you he was going to have himself tortured and killed for you, would you allow it? Would it be moral for you to allow it?

1st John tells us that "God is love" (Greek "agape"); a love that gives of self, that desires only for the good of the one loved. God knew what He would do from the beginning (Ephesians), because He knew that once man chose to rebel it would be impossible to forgive without satisfying perfect justice (Romans). Jesus died a terrible physical death, true, and that death was necessary for the forgiveness of our sins, but even more Jesus endured the wrath we deserved from His Father, and fellowship of love that was eternal was marred temporarilly by that wrath poured out on the Son (thus Jesus cried: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?")... what this meant to Jesus and the Father cannot be fathomed by us.

Why wrath? Well, I suppose you would have wrath if a baby of yours, or someone you loved very dearly, was raped, tortured, and murdered by someone. And you would think that person deserving of your wrath, and rightfully so. The thing is, God is PERFECTLY good, righteous, just, loving, holy, and pure... to Him the least failure to act in agape love is in His eyes just as terrible as the rape, torture, and murder of a baby is in yours. We have a sin problem, blinding us to the terribleness of our everyday failure to love.

If Jesus were walking the Earth today (and He will again one day), I would do whatever He told me to do, because I have absolute faith that He would never ask me to do anything evil or wrong, only good (James). This is why I won't do anything evil today, no matter what some voice in my head may tell me, because I know God is good, not evil. I have experienced fellowship with Him, and I can testify that I found nothing but goodness and love in Him. Moreover, when He returns, I will know Him perfectly, just as I am known perfectly by Him (1st Corinthians 13), so I won't have to guess as to why He asks me to do something. Please don't bother to come up with some heinous act and ask me if I would do it... I KNOW God would not ask me to do anything wrong, and I won't bother to respond.

Why do we need to be saved? This basically makes us objects in a cruel experiment. In my opinion, it's an insult to humanity. Humanity has accomplished great things. Do we make mistakes? Sure. But it is our responsibility to correct those mistakes on our own. To suggest we need a savior is like saying we are basically worthless. I don't accept that nonsense. I don't accept telling that to young children either.

This right here is the heart of the matter. God is omniscient, He does not experiment. On whose backs has the western world accomplished greatness? How many people are living in what we would consider abject poverty? How many people are currently running for their lives from war and terrorism? Even in America, kids go hungry, people are murdered, raped, tortured, bullied, abandoned, wrongfully imprisoned, etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum. Don't get me wrong, people are also capable of great acts of love and kindness, but our basic instinct is to look out for number one, and we all do/say unloving things or fail to do/say the loving thing on a daily basis. Yet we are of infinite value in the eyes of God, so much so that Jesus was willing to endure the death on the cross and the wrath of the Father in order to redeem us. We are NOT worthless, just broken and in need of a tune-up. I would never tell a child they are worthless, and I politely ask you to not put words in Christian's mouths that you have not heard come from their mouths... no true Christian is telling anyone they are worthless, only imperfect and in need of help from a perfect God.

So, we need to toss all of our sins onto someone else and that someone needs to be tortured and killed? That is scapegoating. It removes all of your own personal responsibility. Kill someone? no big deal, just ask Jesus for forgiveness. Cheat on your wife? It's all good, just ask for forgiveness and it's all good. Prey on children? Hey, nobody is perfect, just ask Jesus for forgiveness. This is nonsense. I am responsible for my own actions. If I wrong someone, it is my responsibility to correct that wrong, accept the consequences of those actions and try to become a better person.

Jesus said that you will know a Christian by their fruit (actions and attitudes). No true Christian would live the way you describe here... though I admit that I have done wrong things knowing that I would be forgiven... yet I am ashamed of those times and do not live that as a way of life, and neither would any other person who has God's Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

This saddens me. You're telling me you'd accept that someone who raped and murdered your child gets eternal paradise while your child is not afforded this because they simply did not believe? In my opinion, this is the wish to be an abject slave.

I am Christ's bondservant. I have been forgiven more than even I know, and it is not for me to condemn someone else for their actions, however heinous I may find them. I would be greatly saddened by the loss of my loved one, but I cannot charge God with wrongdoing for forgiving someone who truly repented (only God knows Dahmer's true heart), nor for condemning someone too arrogant to humble themselves before their Creator and ask forgiveness.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I think the world is very beautiful and we are capable of great things. Do bad things happen? Are there bad people? Sure. But life isn't fair. We must do our best to improve the world. Punish evil when we see it and reward good when we see it as best we can.

Life is wonderfull! I love being alive! There is soo much good in the world... but the world systems are broken and sick to their core, and corrupted by man's selfishness. Even institutional Christianity is corrupted by it at times. As a Christian I try to do what I can to alleviate suffering when I see it.

Thank you for pointing that out. Sorry for projecting what I thought your idea of hell was. I do have to ask, how do you know this? How do you determine what is literal and what is not? It sounds like you've just made up in your head what you want God to be. There are many people who do think hell is a place of fire and torture. How does I determine who is right and who isn't and more importantly, how do you? Are you just making it up in your head or do you actually know?

I am going by what the Greek words mean at their core, and the fact that symbolism is a constant theme when describing eternal/heavenly realities... and I am also going by what the Bible says about God's character, believing that God IS good and righteous. I agree with you, a good God would not torture people in fire for all eternity. As I once heard another person say: "If I get to heaven and find a literal lake of fire with people being eternally roasted, I will be the first to jump in."

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

1st, you will not be forgiven because of your unbelief; but, if you continue in unbelief, you will be condemned (John 3), not for unbelief specifically, but for rebellion against your Creator (Romans).

How does one rebel against something they do not believe exists? Is unbelief the one unforgivable sin? Wouldn't a benevolent God who takes interest in their creation use their omniscience to satisfy someone who doesn't believe? At the very least show a compassion and understanding towards this person who was unconvinced? Or is this a vindictive and capricious God who demands uncritical praise? The definition of totalitarianism.

We have all rebelled against God by choosing not to do what is loving and good... that is why we will be condemned unless we accept God's pardon (John 3)

Again, how does one rebel against a deity they do not believe exists? I have empathy and the ability to understand how my actions effect other people. I can live a positive life, treat others with kindness, compassion and love without having to believe in a God. In a hypothetical scenario, God has been disproven beyond all reasonable doubt. Do you all of a sudden feel like it's okay to harm other people? Are you incapable of understanding what is good and what is bad without a deity telling you? This is an honest question.

1st John tells us that "God is love" (Greek "agape")

Would a loving God allow evil and injustice to even exist? At this very moment, some where in this world, a child is being abused. Is God willing but unable to stop this? Then he is not omnipotent. Is God able but unwilling to stop this? Then he is not benevolent. Why call him God?

God knew what He would do from the beginning (Ephesians), because He knew that once man chose to rebel it would be impossible to forgive without satisfying perfect justice

Impossible to forgive unless there is a brutal human sacrifice? Isn't he God? He can do whatever he likes right? Why choose a blood sacrifice? Surely there is a more humane way of going about this. This sounds entirely man made.

(thus Jesus cried: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?")... what this meant to Jesus and the Father cannot be fathomed by us.

Is Jesus and God not the same person? Do you not subscribe to the Trinity? Anyway, first, you're describing what is supposed to be an all loving God but now you are describing irrational wrath. This begins to make less and less sense the more you describe it. So he is going to have someone brutally tortured and killed to save people from their sins that he is ultimately responsible for? If we go with the Trinity, then it would be him coming down to earth as himself, to sacrifice himself to himself to save you from himself. Please explain how this makes any moral or logical sense.

Why wrath? Well, I suppose you would have wrath if a baby of yours, or someone you loved very dearly, was raped, tortured, and murdered by someone. And you would think that person deserving of your wrath, and rightfully so.

Yep, you're describing a human being. Who can feel both love and anger. You're trying to describe an all loving God but you just can't help yourself, you have to throw wrath into the mix as well. It should be painfully obvious to you that these are human emotions and not the behavior of an all living deity.

The thing is, God is PERFECTLY good, righteous, just, loving, holy, and pure... to Him the least failure to act in agape love is in His eyes just as terrible as the rape, torture, and murder of a baby is in yours.

And the question of the day is: Do you think this is moral. Please do not try to avoid the question with "it is irrelevant what I think" It is very much relevant what you think. Is my unbelief just as bad as a serial killer who spends their life raping and killing? Does that serial killer deserve an eternal paradise and I deserve separation for the petty crime of being unconvinced of a God's existence?

If Jesus were walking the Earth today (and He will again one day)

For 2000 years people were certain that return would be in their lifetime. Ask people today and I am willing to be the majority think it will happen in their lifetime too. Do you think it will be in your lifetime? If yes, what makes you so sure?

If Jesus were walking the Earth today (and He will again one day), I would do whatever He told me to do, because I have absolute faith that He would never ask me to do anything evil or wrong, only good (James).

Does God talk to you and tell you good things to do? Are you incapable of doing good things entirely on your own? What does that say about someones self worth?

Was it good for him to ask Abraham to sacrifice his son? If I remember correctly, he had Issac tied to the alter and drew his knife. If you were driving today and saw a scene like this on the side of the road and the man said "God told me to do this. I'm proving my devotion to him" Would you carry on with your day or would you report this delusional man.

Please don't bother to come up with some heinous act and ask me if I would do it... I KNOW God would not ask me to do anything wrong, and I won't bother to respond.

How do you know? What does God's voice sound like? Could you describe it in detail. How do you know that voice is God and not something you made up yourself? How does one determine this?

This is why I won't do anything evil today, no matter what some voice in my head may tell me, because I know God is good, not evil.

Are you hearing voices in your head that aren't your own telling you to do things? This is called schizophrenia.

This right here is the heart of the matter. God is omniscient, He does not experiment. On whose backs has the western world accomplished greatness? How many people are living in what we would consider abject poverty? How many people are currently running for their lives from war and terrorism? Even in America, kids go hungry, people are murdered, raped, tortured, bullied, abandoned, wrongfully imprisoned, etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum.

This really makes you wonder, if God exists, why doesn't he stop these things? Certainly he has the power to say "Alright, that's enough, let's put a stop to this" But nope.....throughout human history, these types of things continue to happen and heaven watches with complete indifference (It seems more likely that it doesn't exist).

If God exists is he willing to stop these tragedies but unable? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but unwilling? Then he is evil......and sadistic. Why worship someone that allows this to even happen? This is not the behavior of a benevolent God no matter how many mental gymnastics you have to do trying to justify it.

Don't get me wrong, people are also capable of great acts of love and kindness, but our basic instinct is to look out for number one, and we all do/say unloving things or fail to do/say the loving thing on a daily basis.

This is what is called a survival instinct. What is truly bothersome is hearing some religious people look at all the negative in the world and think "Oh, Jesus will one day stop it" Yet....here we are. Perhaps it should be painfully obvious that nobody is coming to save us from ourselves. We live on a tiny spec of dust in the corner of an unimportant galaxy, orbiting around a rather uninteresting star. We are all in this together and should do our best to make the world a better place.

We are NOT worthless, just broken and in need of a tune-up.

Ah yes, created sick and then ordered to be well. Where love is compulsory. You must love someone who you also must fear. A totalitarian dictatorship.

No true Christian would live the way you describe here...

No true Scotsman fallacy. How many times have you seen someone commit a "sin" ask for forgiveness and then turn around and do it again the next day. It strips you of your personal responsibility.

I have been forgiven more than even I know, and it is not for me to condemn someone else for their actions, however heinous I may find them.

We condemn people all the time. We sentence criminals to punishment and we express disapproval of things we find immoral.

I would be greatly saddened by the loss of my loved one, but I cannot charge God with wrongdoing for forgiving someone who truly repented (only God knows Dahmer's true heart)

So you would be okay if God told you that your child's murderer was rewarded with an eternal reward while your Child was condemned to your interpretation of hell just for not being convinced of his existence? This is a yes or no question.

Life is wonderfull! I love being alive! There is soo much good in the world...

I love being alive too. I also know that someday I will be dead. It motivates me to enjoy the one life I am sure to get, live my life in the most positive way possible and do my best to leave it a better place than I found it. None of this requires a divine being.

I agree with you, a good God would not torture people in fire for all eternity. As I once heard another person say: "If I get to heaven and find a literal lake of fire with people being eternally roasted, I will be the first to jump in."

But completely separating someone for all eternity is completely fine?[/QUOTE]

 

[Hoghead1]

How does one rebel against something they do not believe exists? Is unbelief the one unforgivable sin? Wouldn't a benevolent God who takes interest in their creation use their omniscience to satisfy someone who doesn't believe? At the very least show a compassion and understanding towards this person who was unconvinced? Or is this a vindictive and capricious God who demands uncritical praise? The definition of totalitarianism.



Again, how does one rebel against a deity they do not believe exists? I have empathy and the ability to understand how my actions effect other people. I can live a positive life, treat others with kindness, compassion and love without having to believe in a God. In a hypothetical scenario, God has been disproven beyond all reasonable doubt. Do you all of a sudden feel like it's okay to harm other people? Are you incapable of understanding what is good and what is bad without a deity telling you? This is an honest question.



Would a loving God allow evil and injustice to even exist? At this very moment, some where in this world, a child is being abused. Is God willing but unable to stop this? Then he is not omnipotent. Is God able but unwilling to stop this? Then he is not benevolent. Why call him God?



Impossible to forgive unless there is a brutal human sacrifice? Isn't he God? He can do whatever he likes right? Why choose a blood sacrifice? Surely there is a more humane way of going about this. This sounds entirely man made.



Is Jesus and God not the same person? Do you not subscribe to the Trinity? Anyway, first, you're describing what is supposed to be an all loving God but now you are describing irrational wrath. This begins to make less and less sense the more you describe it. So he is going to have someone brutally tortured and killed to save people from their sins that he is ultimately responsible for? If we go with the Trinity, then it would be him coming down to earth as himself, to sacrifice himself to himself to save you from himself. Please explain how this makes any moral or logical sense.



Yep, you're describing a human being. Who can feel both love and anger. You're trying to describe an all loving God but you just can't help yourself, you have to throw wrath into the mix as well. It should be painfully obvious to you that these are human emotions and not the behavior of an all living deity.



And the question of the day is: Do you think this is moral. Please do not try to avoid the question with "it is irrelevant what I think" It is very much relevant what you think. Is my unbelief just as bad as a serial killer who spends their life raping and killing? Does that serial killer deserve an eternal paradise and I deserve separation for the petty crime of being unconvinced of a God's existence?



For 2000 years people were certain that return would be in their lifetime. Ask people today and I am willing to be the majority think it will happen in their lifetime too. Do you think it will be in your lifetime? If yes, what makes you so sure?





Does God talk to you and tell you good things to do? Are you incapable of doing good things entirely on your own? What does that say about someones self worth?

Was it good for him to ask Abraham to sacrifice his son? If I remember correctly, he had Issac tied to the alter and drew his knife. If you were driving today and saw a scene like this on the side of the road and the man said "God told me to do this. I'm proving my devotion to him" Would you carry on with your day or would you report this delusional man.



How do you know? What does God's voice sound like? Could you describe it in detail. How do you know that voice is God and not something you made up yourself? How does one determine this?



Are you hearing voices in your head that aren't your own telling you to do things? This is called schizophrenia.



This really makes you wonder, if God exists, why doesn't he stop these things? Certainly he has the power to say "Alright, that's enough, let's put a stop to this" But nope.....throughout human history, these types of things continue to happen and heaven watches with complete indifference (It seems more likely that it doesn't exist).

If God exists is he willing to stop these tragedies but unable? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but unwilling? Then he is evil......and sadistic. Why worship someone that allows this to even happen? This is not the behavior of a benevolent God no matter how many mental gymnastics you have to do trying to justify it.



This is what is called a survival instinct. What is truly bothersome is hearing some religious people look at all the negative in the world and think "Oh, Jesus will one day stop it" Yet....here we are. Perhaps it should be painfully obvious that nobody is coming to save us from ourselves. We live on a tiny spec of dust in the corner of an unimportant galaxy, orbiting around a rather uninteresting star. We are all in this together and should do our best to make the world a better place.



Ah yes, created sick and then ordered to be well. Where love is compulsory. You must love someone who you also must fear. A totalitarian dictatorship.



No true Scotsman fallacy. How many times have you seen someone commit a "sin" ask for forgiveness and then turn around and do it again the next day. It strips you of your personal responsibility.



We condemn people all the time. We sentence criminals to punishment and we express disapproval of things we find immoral.




So you would be okay if God told you that your child's murderer was rewarded with an eternal reward while your Child was condemned to your interpretation of hell just for not being convinced of his existence? This is a yes or no question.



I love being alive too. I also know that someday I will be dead. It motivates me to enjoy the one life I am sure to get, live my life in the most positive way possible and do my best to leave it a better place than I found it. None of this requires a divine being.



But completely separating someone for all eternity is completely fine?

[/QUOTE]
o. When you love others, you do not coerce them by threats of horrible punishments. True, the Bible, in many passages, presents a punitive, juridical God, but I question the validity of that "revelation."

 

[DogmaHunter]

I don't dismiss Islam in the same way that you dismiss all religion.

Off course you do, since you are not a muslim.
Just like I am not a christian.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Not everything that is true can be demonstrated.

Sure. But that wasn't the point.
The point was, how could you KNOW it is true, if it can't be demonstrated....

That which can't be demonstrated, can't be differentiated from that which is false.

Truth itself can't be demonstrated. The statement was invalid.

That makes no sense to me.

Once more: how can you know that X is true, if it can't be shown to be true? If it can't be differentiated from what is false?

 

[DogmaHunter]

This is not the place for an apologetic against Islam.

I'm not asking for it either.
I'm just making a point. If such statements mean something in context of christianity, then the same reasoning applies when such statements are made in other contexts.

I'm pointing out that the argument is invalid.

Suffice it to say that I investigated Islam a little bit and decided that Muhammad's claim to be a prophet of the same God as the Jews and Christians served to be false.

I investigated christianity (more then a little bit) and decided that the claims therein are false as well.

My answer stands for those who never heard the gospel clearly preached.

Yes, and as I said in the very post you are replying to: that was not my question.

For those that have heard and rejected it, the Bible is clear that they will not enter heaven.

Right, thank you.

So, when you said "you misunderstand the nature of God's judgment...He looks at the attitudes of the heart and the reason we do what we do, not just what we do." in post 23, you weren't being very truthfull.

In reality, this god FIRST looks at what you believe.
And if you happen to believe the wrong thing, for example - because you were born into the wrong culture, then the rest doesn't matter. It's down to the torture chambers for you.

So you end up in a system where perfectly decent and nice people end up with eternal punishment, while brutal serial killers who "sincerely repent", get to enjoy eternal bliss.

This is the opposite of justice.

 

[DogmaHunter]

What would you have God do? Forgive everyone no matter what? Condemn everyone? Create automatons with no capacity to love? All of those things are against the very nature and character of a good God. A good God must have justice, or else He is no longer good. A good God would not create beings only to damn them without providing for their salvation. And a good God does not desire relationship with automatons, only free beings to bless and be blessed in a relationship of love.




I pity you for seeing it that way, because if we are to be saved, it HAS to come vicariously because we are completely unable to satisfy the demands of justice on our own and still enter heaven. Without Christ's sacrifice, we would forever be under God's righteous judgement for our multitude of sins.



What I think is irrevelent. God sees it as righteous and just, and that is the only opinion that matters in this case. But I do think that God forgiving those who will humble themselves, and condemning those who will not, is right and moral. For it was and is human pride and selfishness above all other things that makes the world such a horrifying place. As for torture, you need to read my post on the first page of this thread to get an idea of how I believe hell is/will be. I do not believe that God tortures people in fire for all eternity.





I wonder if you have investigated this for yourself, or are parroting what someone else said/wrote...

PS: you messed up the quoting. You attributed a bunch of things to me that were said by someone else.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Off course you do, since you are not a muslim.
Just like I am not a christian.

No, actually it is much more than that.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Sure. But that wasn't the point.
The point was, how could you KNOW it is true, if it can't be demonstrated....

That which can't be demonstrated, can't be differentiated from that which is false.



That makes no sense to me.

Once more: how can you know that X is true, if it can't be shown to be true? If it can't be differentiated from what is false?

How can you know truth must be demonstrated to be true if you can't demonstrate that truth must be demonstrated?

 

[DogmaHunter]

No, actually it is much more than that.

Like what?
Am I supposed to guess, or do you care to explain it?

 

[DogmaHunter]

How can you know truth must be demonstrated to be true if you can't demonstrate that truth must be demonstrated?

Please try to comprehend the question I'm asking.

How can you KNOW that X is true, if it can't be shown to be true?

How do you differentiate X from something that is false, if you can't show X to be true?
How do you find out what is true and what isn't?

 

[Davian]

How can you know truth must be demonstrated to be true if you can't demonstrate that truth must be demonstrated?

"How can you know that the colour green must be demonstrated to appear green if you can't demonstrate that colour must be demonstrated?"

 

[Davian]

Please try to comprehend the question I'm asking.

How can you KNOW that X is true, if it can't be shown to be true?

How do you differentiate X from something that is false, if you can't show X to be true?
How do you find out what is true and what isn't?

From what I gather, her position is that she "knows" things to be true, yet is unable to demonstrate them as true; from that position, it follows that true things cannot necessarily be demonstrated as true.

Does that not make sense? No, it does not make sense.