What is the purpose behind an eternal hell?

[ewq1938]

If God exists, he could have easily created humans without sin.

Sure, if God wants to be worshiped by an army of thoughtless robots. Wow, that would really mean He was great Huh?

 

[food4thought]

If God exists, he could have easily created humans without sin.

He did. But Adam had been given the gift of a free will, and He chose to sin. Without free will we would be automatons, like a doll that says "I love you" when you pull its string. God didn't want automatons, He wanted beings who could freely express their love for other beings... or choose to withhold that love and reject the love offered them. Love is the greatest thing in existence, so free will being necessary for real love, giving Adam free will was a good thing.

If he is omniscient, he already knows the outcome of my life. He would already know if he is going to condemn me to eternal torture. This gives the appearance of a sadistic, cruel experiment. This sounds like a totalitarian dictatorship. Is it moral that Jeffery Dahmer gets eternal paradise and I would get eternal torture for simply not being convinced of his existence? Even if I live the most positive life I could?

Perhaps God knows that you will eventually receive Him in faith. But yes, God knows all things.

You could chose to go to hell because you reject His grace (unmerited favor) offered to you, or you could try to live a perfect life and stand in your own righteousness at the judgment. Good luck with that, by the way. You may have your own reasons for coming here, but God has brought you here so that you can know this:

God loves you. He proved that at the cross. Jesus, being in very nature God, emptied Himself to become a man and take the just penalty for your sins (and mine) in our place, and rose from the dead to prove His victory. Now even a horrific sinner like Dahmer can be forgiven if they repent and believe.

It's your choice. Many atheists have come to faith after examining the evidence for the resurrection.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

He did. But Adam had been given the gift of a free will, and He chose to sin.

Is God omniscient? If yes, then you have to concede that God is responsible for that.

God didn't want automatons, He wanted beings who could freely express their love for other beings... or choose to withhold that love and reject the love offered them.

Is it really free will if he knows the outcome ahead of time? If he is omniscient, he knows what someone will do anyway. So he would be creating someone only to torture them forever. This isn't the behavior of a benevolent being. This is the behavior of a psychopath. It sounds entirely man made.

Perhaps God knows that you will eventually receive Him in faith. But yes, God knows all things.

Faith is not a virtue. If God exists, he knows that I do not accept believing things without evidence. If God exists, and knows all things, then you would have to concede that he knows before someone is even born that they will be unconvinced of his existence and would be condemned to eternal torture. Is this moral?

You could chose to go to hell because you reject His grace (unmerited favor) offered to you, or you could try to live a perfect life and stand in your own righteousness at the judgment. Good luck with that, by the way.

The whole "You choose to go to hell" is complete nonsense. If I put a gun to your head and told you to give me all your money and you didn't, did you choose to die or did I kill you in cold blood?

God loves you. He proved that at the cross. Jesus, being in very nature God, emptied Himself to become a man and take the just penalty for your sins (and mine) in our place, and rose from the dead to prove His victory.

So the only way to forgive someone is a brutal human sacrifice? Vicarious redemption is immoral. This is the definition of scapegoating.

Now even a horrific sinner like Dahmer can be forgiven if they repent and believe.

Hypothetical situation. A serial killer brutally rapes and kills your son or daughter. Later on you pass away and enter heaven. God says to you "Here is the man who brutally raped your son (or daughter), he came to me for forgiveness. Your son or daughter though.....they didn't believe, they're being tortured in hell for eternity right now" Is this moral?

Many atheists have come to faith after examining the evidence for the resurrection.

If there was verifiable evidence for the claims of the resurrection, you wouldn't need faith. Unfortunately you have no contemporary and independent sources that back up these claims. You have unknown authors, who don't name their sources writing many decades after the alleged events. To me, that is obvious mythology.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Can you explain this scripture?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Can you please just answer my question?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Romans 1 tells us that humanity is without excuse, for God is revealed within them and by His creation.

The quran says the exact same thing...

Those who are born into other cultures may indeed reject their culture's religion based upon their conscience and the testimony of creation.

Islam invites you to do the exact same thing.
Also, you can't deny that this gives an unfair advantage to people who are born into a judeo-christian culture... right?

It's extremely hard to move away from everything you've been taught as a child.
And that's not even taking into account the social pressure.

It is impossible to enter heaven without being born of the Spirit... is it possible to do this without ever hearing of Jesus? I honestly don't know, the Bible gives me no clear answer to this question. Maybe... maybe not.

I didn't ask if one can enter heaven "without ever hearing of jesus".
I asked if one can enter heaven while being a non-christian.

That includes all non-christians. Both those who have heared of christianity and those who haven't.

Would you like to rephrase your answer now?

 

[DogmaHunter]

edit--------------------
Let me put it a little more kindly for any Muslims reading this. Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of the same God as the Jews and Christians worshiped, but he claimed they had become corrupted. So it is no surprise to find Christian teachings in their scriptures.

But it also says that if you have heared of islam, you are without excuse.
So, that means that if you have heared of islam, your only chance of entering heaven is by becoming a muslim.

So, why don't you become a muslim?

 

[Oncedeceived]

But it also says that if you have heared of islam, you are without excuse.
So, that means that if you have heared of islam, your only chance of entering heaven is by becoming a muslim.

So, why don't you become a muslim?

This may seem reasonable to you but to a Christian it is like saying why don't you believe the earth is flat? Truth is at the issue.

 

[anonymous person]

I agree, truth is at the issue.

Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

 

[bhsmte]

Truth, can be demonstrated.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Truth, can be demonstrated.

Demonstrate that truth can be demonstrated.

 

[Davian]

This may seem reasonable to you but to a Christian it is like saying why don't you believe the earth is flat? Truth is at the issue.

By "truth", do you mean, having the state of being true, or do you mean religious opinion?

 

[Davian]

Demonstrate that truth can be demonstrated.

Religious opinion generally cannot be demonstrated. Things that are actually true are by definition, in accordance with fact or reality.

What you are asking is as nonsensical as "demonstrate that round is round".

 

[Davian]

I agree, truth is at the issue.

I do not accept your religious opinion as truth.

Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

Well, in a sales pitch, confidence is currency. While more accurate, it may be less convincing to say "I think I am the way, I believe I have the truth, etc...."

 

[DogmaHunter]

This may seem reasonable to you but to a Christian it is like saying why don't you believe the earth is flat? Truth is at the issue.

Now consider what it is like for an atheist (or a non-christian in general) when a christian tells him the exact same thing.

Clearly you understand what it is like... since you have the exact same reaction when it comes to the claims of islam.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Demonstrate that truth can be demonstrated.

If it can't be demonstrated, how could you possibly know it is truth in the first place?

That which can't be demonstrated can't be differentiated from that which is false......

 

[Oncedeceived]

Now consider what it is like for an atheist (or a non-christian in general) when a christian tells him the exact same thing.

Clearly you understand what it is like... since you have the exact same reaction when it comes to the claims of islam.

I don't dismiss Islam in the same way that you dismiss all religion.

 

[Oncedeceived]

If it can't be demonstrated, how could you possibly know it is truth in the first place?

That which can't be demonstrated can't be differentiated from that which is false......

Not everything that is true can be demonstrated. Truth itself can't be demonstrated. The statement was invalid.

 

[food4thought]

The quran says the exact same thing...
Islam invites you to do the exact same thing.
Also, you can't deny that this gives an unfair advantage to people who are born into a judeo-christian culture... right?

This is not the place for an apologetic against Islam. Suffice it to say that I investigated Islam a little bit and decided that Muhammad's claim to be a prophet of the same God as the Jews and Christians served to be false.

I didn't ask if one can enter heaven "without ever hearing of jesus".
I asked if one can enter heaven while being a non-christian.

That includes all non-christians. Both those who have heared of christianity and those who haven't.

Would you like to rephrase your answer now?

My answer stands for those who never heard the gospel clearly preached. For those that have heard and rejected it, the Bible is clear that they will not enter heaven.

 

[bhsmte]

This is not the place for an apologetic against Islam. Suffice it to say that I investigated Islam a little bit and decided that Muhammad's claim to be a prophet of the same God as the Jews and Christians served to be false.




My answer stands for those who never heard the gospel clearly preached. For those that have heard and rejected it, the Bible is clear that they will not enter heaven.

You should then understand, why 2/3 of the worlds population consider christianity, to be false.

 

[food4thought]

Is God omniscient? If yes, then you have to concede that God is responsible for that.



Is it really free will if he knows the outcome ahead of time? If he is omniscient, he knows what someone will do anyway. So he would be creating someone only to torture them forever. This isn't the behavior of a benevolent being. This is the behavior of a psychopath. It sounds entirely man made.

What would you have God do? Forgive everyone no matter what? Condemn everyone? Create automatons with no capacity to love? All of those things are against the very nature and character of a good God. A good God must have justice, or else He is no longer good. A good God would not create beings only to damn them without providing for their salvation. And a good God does not desire relationship with automatons, only free beings to bless and be blessed in a relationship of love.

So the only way to forgive someone is a brutal human sacrifice? Vicarious redemption is immoral. This is the definition of scapegoating.

I pity you for seeing it that way, because if we are to be saved, it HAS to come vicariously because we are completely unable to satisfy the demands of justice on our own and still enter heaven. Without Christ's sacrifice, we would forever be under God's righteous judgement for our multitude of sins.

Hypothetical situation. A serial killer brutally rapes and kills your son or daughter. Later on you pass away and enter heaven. God says to you "Here is the man who brutally raped your son (or daughter), he came to me for forgiveness. Your son or daughter though.....they didn't believe, they're being tortured in hell for eternity right now" Is this moral?

What I think is irrevelent. God sees it as righteous and just, and that is the only opinion that matters in this case. But I do think that God forgiving those who will humble themselves, and condemning those who will not, is right and moral. For it was and is human pride and selfishness above all other things that makes the world such a horrifying place. As for torture, you need to read my post on the first page of this thread to get an idea of how I believe hell is/will be. I do not believe that God tortures people in fire for all eternity.

If there was verifiable evidence for the claims of the resurrection, you wouldn't need faith. Unfortunately you have no contemporary and independent sources that back up these claims. You have unknown authors, who don't name their sources writing many decades after the alleged events. To me, that is obvious mythology.

I wonder if you have investigated this for yourself, or are parroting what someone else said/wrote...