What is the purpose behind an eternal hell?

[bhsmte]

*Sigh* I had hoped to delete the post before someone responded. Ah, well.

The biblical answer to your hypothetical begins with recognizing that the standard for entrance into God's kingdom is His own holy perfection, not human morality. This is what the Bible teaches. We look at one another and think, "I'm no serial killer. I'm not a rapist. Compared to the hardened criminal, I'm a pretty good person." But as good as we may think we are in comparison to the worst people around us, we all fall far, far short of God's holy and perfect standard, which is Himself. Every single one of us has at one time or another been selfish and violated our conscience, and been guilty of dishonesty, deception and evil motives. However much good we do, then, is tainted by the evil we have done. If you pour a single drop of poison into a glass of water, all the water becomes poisoned. The apostle James put it this way:

James 2:10
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

The Moral Law of God has been likened to a chain. If you break one of the links, the whole chain is broken. This is what James is pointing out.

So, both the Hindu philanthropist and the serial killer stand before God condemned: both are unable to meet His perfect standard; neither of them is perfect. They have broken the chain. They have poisoned the water. In God's eyes, then, both of these sinners deserve Hell. The Bible tells us that the only way either of them will gain entrance into God's kingdom is through the Person of Christ and his atoning work on the cross for all sinners. This atoning work is a gift of God to sinners; undeserved, unmerited, and available to any who will receive it. If the serial killer or the Hindu philanthropist receive God's gift of salvation, they will be saved. This is entirely because of the merciful, gracious work of God, however, offered totally independently of the worthiness of the recipient of His gift.

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Selah.

In your perception then, the serial killer who finds Jesus and honestly repents his sins, is still condemned and has no chance to avoid hell??

 

[aiki]

In your perception then, the serial killer who finds Jesus and honestly repents his sins, is still condemned and has no chance to avoid hell??

I'm not sure how you got that out of what I wrote...

 

[bhsmte]

I'm not sure how you got that out of what I wrote...

I am looking for simple clarification. Can you answer the question?

 

[aiki]

I am looking for simple clarification. Can you answer the question?

Ah. Well, let me quote myself:

"The Bible tells us that the only way either of them will gain entrance into God's kingdom is through the Person of Christ and his atoning work on the cross for all sinners. This atoning work is a gift of God to sinners; undeserved, unmerited, and available to any who will receive it. If the serial killer or the Hindu philanthropist receive God's gift of salvation, they will be saved."

Selah.

 

[bhsmte]

Ah. Well, let me quote myself:

"The Bible tells us that the only way either of them will gain entrance into God's kingdom is through the Person of Christ and his atoning work on the cross for all sinners. This atoning work is a gift of God to sinners; undeserved, unmerited, and available to any who will receive it. If the serial killer or the Hindu philanthropist receive God's gift of salvation, they will be saved."

Selah.

Am I correct then to state, the Hindu would need to change their religion to avoid hell and the serial killer can avoid hell, by simply finding Jesus and repenting their sins?

 

[aiki]

Am I correct then to state, the Hindu would need to change their religion to avoid hell and the serial killer can avoid hell, by simply finding Jesus and repenting their sins?

The Hindu would have to accept truth that contradicts his current worldview - and so would the serial killer. One doesn't necessarily have an easier time of it coming to God than the other.

Selah.

 

[bhsmte]

The Hindu would have to accept truth that contradicts his current worldview - and so would the serial killer. One doesn't necessarily have an easier time of it coming to God than the other.

Selah.

So, if the Hindu dies a Hindu and they truly believe in their religion, they are doomed no matter what type of life they led?

The serial killer, has found Jesus and has honestly repented and they will avoid hell, correct?

 

[aiki]

So, if the Hindu dies a Hindu and they truly believe in their religion, they are doomed no matter what type of life they led?

The serial killer, has found Jesus and has honestly repented and they will avoid hell, correct?

The sincerity of one's belief does not make up for that belief being false. And, again, for the reasons I explained, one cannot merit entrance into God's kingdom. No life, however well-lived, is good enough to meet God's perfect standard.

If the serial killer has genuinely repented of his life of sin and has placed his trust in Christ as his Saviour and Lord, then, yes, he will enter into God's kingdom. This is a testament to God's enormous grace, not the worthiness of the serial killer.

Selah.

 

[bhsmte]

The sincerity of one's belief does not make up for that belief being false. And, again, for the reasons I explained, one cannot merit entrance into God's kingdom. No life, however well-lived, is good enough to meet God's perfect standard.

If the serial killer has genuinely repented of his life of sin and has placed his trust in Christ as his Saviour and Lord, then, yes, he will enter into God's kingdom. This is a testament to God's enormous grace, not the worthiness of the serial killer.

Selah.

Thanks for the clarification.

In your world then, it is all about getting your beliefs right, vs how one lives their life.

 

[aiki]

Thanks for the clarification.

In your world then, it is all about getting your beliefs right, vs how one lives their life.

The Bible tells us that knowing the truth is fundamental to salvation. And when one knows the truth, then how one lives must change in accord with that truth.

Selah.

 

[bhsmte]

The Bible tells us that knowing the truth is fundamental to salvation. And when one knows the truth, then how one lives must change in accord with that truth.

Selah.

Yes, I know what the bible says.

2/3 of the worlds population don't go along with what the bible claims and they are doomed, no matter how they live their life. I find this type of theology, morally bankrupt.

 

[aiki]

Yes, I know what the bible says.

2/3 of the worlds population don't go along with what the bible claims and they are doomed, no matter how they live their life. I find this type of theology, morally bankrupt.

Well, you're entitled to your view, of course. I disagree with it profoundly. And, so far, you haven't given me any good reason to think your view is correct in its moral assessment. What the majority thinks has never been the basis for what is true about reality. And truth does not accommodate itself to the mistaken majority. If a majority of people come to believe they can fly and start jumping off of tall buildings without a safe means of descent to the ground, will the truth of gravity change in accord with their mistaken belief? Of course not. And we don't think it immoral that this is so.

Selah.

 

[ewq1938]

But as aiki has pointed out in this thread, that is not justice, but mercy.

No, the word justice means to punish someone for what they have done wrong. The unsaved are wrong because they reject God and thus are unrepentant of their sins. It is JUST to punish them and the punishment is death.

I can accept that your religion is not about justice, I just see the equivocation to be intellectually dishonest.

The religion is about justice. Disagreeing doesn't change that.

Jer_23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

This is speaking of Jesus and there will come a time for such judgment.

In the example we are using, there is no indication that the home is actually on fire.

Why are you waking me up and warning me of fire, when your warning does not comport with observations of reality?

Why would I consider this a real warning?

Actually to fit the context I am warning you that your house will eventually catch on fire unless you take the right precautions. Either listen or don't but that fire will be coming and it will be entirely your fault for not listening. Keep in mind the fire doesn't come from me, I am just the messenger.

It's also like a ship. I warn you to have a life raft because I had a prophetic dream that the boat sinks but you say, "The boat cannot sink so I don't need a life raft!". Fine, suit yourself.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

While I do not for a picosecond believe that this has any relation to reality, I would echo bhsmte in saying that the threat of "Hell" is a scare tactic, the 'stick' in a carrot-and-stick-type of theology.

If we consider it, hypothetically, as possibly being possible, it would seem to be a form of punishment; and, from what I understand, there are essentially three reasons for punishing a person:
1) Anger/retribution
2) As a deterrent, to show others that such behaviour is wrong
3) To teach the person a lesson so they won't repeat the behaviour.

In the context of "Hell", the person's life is over, so #3 doesn't apply.

#3 is also a problem, in that sin (disbelief) is not a conscious act.

As we have no demonstrable evidence for the existence of a biblical "Hell", or that anyone has gone there, #2 doesn't apply.

So that leaves us with #1. If Hell exists, then this [hypothetical] God sends people there out of his own vengeance, for something beyond their control.

Why fire? Fire is scary. Why forever? It sounds scarier than not forever.

To say hell is not real is to make God out to be a liar...His word says hell is real...hell fire, torment forever and ever. Not we know God is not a liar, so there is your dilemma.

 

[bhsmte]

To say hell is not real is to make God out to be a liar...His word says hell is real...hell fire, torment forever and ever. Not we know God is not a liar, so there is your dilemma.

No one is calling God a liar, if they don't believe this God exists.

Kinda hard to claim someone is lying, if you don't believe they are real to begin with.

 

[Hieronymus]

To say hell is not real is to make God out to be a liar...His word says hell is real...hell fire, torment forever and ever. Not we know God is not a liar, so there is your dilemma.

It's a shame you're too lazy to have a look at studies about the original texts, that were the standard before the KJV.
Or do you want to believe God has a torture facility in eternity, and that there is life without Christ, in hell?

 

[ewq1938]

It's a shame you're too lazy to have a look at studies about the original texts, that were the standard before the KJV.
Or do you want to believe God has a torture facility in eternity, and that there is life without Christ, in hell?

It's a shame that you speak the truth about hell but had to include that "lazy" insult along with it...that kinda ruins some of the truthful quality of the rest of the post. You should have offered the person sites where these studies and are then you would know if the person was lazy or not.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Our perception of time is the problem. We equate eternal matters as if they were on a timeline...and they are not.

The messages of the Bible are geared for time-bound creatures such as ourselves, but something gets lost in translation. The more correct way to understand it, is to take to heart just what it is that "forever" means. The descriptions are bad enough (as you have noted), but they don't even begin to do it justice.

So...how would YOU go about putting the severity of "forever" into words? Would you just say, "When it's over, it's over." and leave it at that, or would you get all emotional? Our Author, chose to be poetic, graphic, and animated - but hey, we are talking about FOREVER!

But, in any case...forever does not burn on a rotisserie, so you can relax.

I believe we are talking about a hell which means a burning in perpetuity. All the passages pertaining to the nature of hell cite fire, an eternal fire." Where the worm never dies if one wants words other than eternity to understand the length of the punishment of hell...and where the flame never goes out. Shall we also cast doubt on the biblical meaning of the word "never" as well?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It's a shame you're too lazy to have a look at studies about the original texts, that were the standard before the KJV.
Or do you want to believe God has a torture facility in eternity, and that there is life without Christ, in hell?

But we have the translations. We then did the translators whose life's work has been original language studies make such a gaping mistake...not once, nor twice, but over and over again? In Hebrew and Greek?

 

[ewq1938]

I believe we are talking about a hell which means a burning in perpetuity. All the passages pertaining to the nature of hell cite fire, an eternal fire." Where the worm never dies if one wants words other than eternity to understand the length of the punishment of hell...and where the flame never goes out. Shall we also cast doubt on the biblical meaning of the word "never" as well?

That's the fire not the person. The sentence is death not life.

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

G2654
?ata?a??´s??
katanalisko¯
kat-an-al-is'-ko
From G2596 and G355; to consume utterly: - consume.

compare that to this:


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something...the fire of a star is very hot, but that man can recreate the same temperatures in welding makes me think the fire of "hell" is something far stronger/hotter.




Fire represents a destructive force. This lake of fire won't be normal fire as we can create ourselves. I believe it to be God himself since God is a consuming fire. So God can create something, and can uncreate something as well. I believe the lake of fire is simply an uncreating process described in a way simple so people could understand it's basic function- destruction.



There was a time none of us existed. God has decided that the bad, wicked, evil etc etc of us should return to that non-existence. There is a fire which is unlike any fire man knows which will be used to destroy souls which essentially and definitively uncreates them.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.




There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.




Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.


Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns forever but this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal. Remember that this fire isn't actual fire. The word fire is used because it's the closest way for us to have any chance to understand the destructive nature and result of this "fire".



And look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:



"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.




Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Here we have death of the soul likened to destruction of the soul. One cannot be destroyed without dying so the two go hand in hand. While the Greek word here can mean several things, we know from other scriptures esp. the OT which has only one meaning for "destruction" being literal destruction, that this word here means:

apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1)to destroy
1a)to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1)to destroy
1b)render useless
1c)to kill
1d)to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67





Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


This also relates the death of the wicked to their complete destruction/consumation as well as death.




Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


H8045
????
sha^mad
BDB Definition:
1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
1b2) to destroy
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2406






Lets use the same logic some apply. We know that our preservation by the Lord shall be eternal, known as salvation or eternal life then the opposite for the wicked would be eternal death and destruction right? Not to be preserved to suffer eternal torture!



Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.



Here the same concept. All sinners judged and consumed at the same time which cannot be anything other than the final judgement.




The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20, 21), and that judgement/decision (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).


Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:



Some teach that God will not do as he says.


Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Do they perish, consumed away in smoke or do they live forever in torture?? Scripture is clear!


Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.


Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
Isaiah 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
Isaiah 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

Why are they wicked?

Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.





They are corrupt and God has rejected them.





Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.



The righteous ones will be saved but those unrighteous will be consumed away.


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They wouldn't receive the truth to be saved so they shall be destroyed!

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Those that had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the truth shall perish and be damned.



Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

1) correction, punishment, penalty

The lexicon there says the word punishment in this verse means "correction, punishment, penalty" not firery torment. As I have been saying, the kind of punishment inflicted is unnamed in this verse but is given many places elsewhere as both death and destruction.



The righteous are not sinless but they repent and love God and believe upon Christ and that is counted righteous and though all are wicked in some sense, it is only those who love unrighteousness, who do not love God, who don't repent and don't follow Christ that shall be destroyed.


Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


The way to destruction is wide and many will be destroyed. FEW will find the way to life. Read it more than once if you don't believe this. Christ said it and it is true.