What is the point in eternal life ?

[billwald]

Sometimes the thought of non existance is frightening, sometimes comforting. Sometimes I'd rather exist in Hell than not exist.

 

[billwald]

Jesus said there would be no marriage in Heaven. He didn't say there would be no sex.
arriage is only requied because we are sinners. In Heaven we can have sex for pleasure without guilt.

 

[Blackguard_]

arriage is only requied because we are sinners. In Heaven we can have sex for pleasure without guilt.

....non sequitor

how does being sinners mean we must have marriage?

 

[Blackguard_]

OK, if then we have different bodies what would they be based on ?

I don't know, but probably the body you would ideally have had on earth. ie the one you have now minus deformity, mutilation, etc. Maybe you get to pick out what you look like?

Would they be the bodies of our earthly existence - with their flaws, problems and disabilities ?

no.

Or would they be new 'perfect' bodies.

they will be 'spirit-bodies', like the one Jesus had after the ressuection.

If they are 'perfect' how can they be different ?

is physical beauty objective or subjective?
not everything is objective, so while they will be alike in may ways do to 'perfection' like free of disease, they will also be different since things like the "perfect" eye/hair color might not exist objectively.

I am not so sure the 'rat race' defines humanity, the phrase represents little more than a personal despondency with the culture of 9-5 full time employment.

i meant the idea of having to work to get the basic necessities of life i.e. survive. That was even one of the curses on Adam when he was kicked out of the Garden.

Does a struggle to survive define humanity?

Not necessarily, but if you intended to mean intercourse when you said 'sexuality' I accept your meaning.

sexuality without intercouse?

My point is to wonder whether emotions such as sadness, dissapointment, sorrow and so on are possible in heaven ?

Well, if God is sad, disappointed, sorrowful etc. for sin, evil etc. on Earth then yes. Whether we will experience them up there, I don't know.

 

[Kleptin]

Jesus said there would be no marriage in Heaven. He didn't say there would be no sex.
arriage is only requied because we are sinners. In Heaven we can have sex for pleasure without guilt.

Anthropomorphic inference. I have no problem with the belief in heaven, but pleasure is a biochemical signal in a human's brain, which, if i'm not mistaken, is left on earth after it dies. Humans had difficulty trying to come up with the idea of what heaven is like, so being the humans that they were, defined it as a city (because that's where humans live). To suggest that the populace is actually made up of humans who have the capability to have sex is going along this same illogical train of thought. Why can't heaven be a place where humans are beyond simple, primitive things like emotion or pleasure? perhaps eternal life and the reward for mortal toil is simply this.

 

[Tynan]

I don't know, but probably the body you would ideally have had on earth. ie the one you have now minus deformity, mutilation, etc. Maybe you get to pick out what you look like?

Interesting idea.

they will be 'spirit-bodies', like the one Jesus had after the ressuection.

What is a 'spirit-body' (excuse my theological ignorance !)

Does a struggle to survive define humanity?

For me, yes to some extent, effort, goals, attaining these goals, achivements above the mundane, striving to better ones self and ones enviroment and so on.

If fed, clothed, kept warm, loved and attended to in every way I would certainly lose some of the drive that makes me human.

sexuality without intercouse?

Sexuality refers to psychological, physical, and emotional makeup of an individual, it also encompasses gender, gender role, gender identity, social norms, sexual orientation, sexual preference and so on.

But lets dwell on this minor point, I have accepted that by the use of the word 'sexuality' you mean 'intercourse', I understand and accept your use of the word 'sexuality'.

Well, if God is sad, disappointed, sorrowful etc. for sin, evil etc. on Earth then yes. Whether we will experience them up there, I don't know.

I have heard from Muslims and Christians that heaven is free of suffering, sin, sorrow, sadness and so on.

Even if your children are sent to hell for the crime of not believing in whatever god you subscribe to, you will feel no sadness or sorrow, you will still be endlessly, perfectly happy and joyous with god.

I also hear that god will not drug or alter you to think or act a certain way, or to change your mind to forget that your sweet little daughter is burning in the endless flames of hell, this, I am told would be like creating mindless robots to fit his purpose.

And yet so much of the notion of heaven and its many implications are logically inconsistent ?

It would seem that heaven fits the desire of the person describing it, it is everything from a feast of desire, sport and pleasure with prolonged periods of sexual intercourse with a selection of vigins and a new perfect body to some, a chance to converse with Einstein and Hitler to others and a kind of vague divorced - bodiless 'mind' or 'spirit' (whatever that may be) basking in the glow of gods love, a kind of state of endless bliss to yet other people.

I cannot help thinking that the whole idea is nonsense and a blatant, almost comic tour de force of wishful thinking.

But let us return to the original question, let us suppose heaven is this holday camp where you can do whatever you desire, (but you cannot sin, but this in no way curtails your absolute free will) What is the point or function of this heaven ?

Is it simply a 24 hour feast of satisfaction for all time ?

 

[Tynan]

Sometimes the thought of non existance is frightening, sometimes comforting. Sometimes I'd rather exist in Hell than not exist.

During the period of time before you were born, during this time of non-existence before you were conceived - would you have preferred to spend it roasting in the Christain gods ovens of hell ?

 

[Kleptin]

Sometimes the thought of non existance is frightening, sometimes comforting. Sometimes I'd rather exist in Hell than not exist.

I think that this thought was shared by many primitive people, and that's how concepts of the afterlife began. As for all the logical fallacies Tynan listed, what do you expect? If you are trying to convey a point and you make an analogy, the longer you stick with it, the more it detracts from reality. Humans tend to humanize every complicated and abstract concept in the universe, it's the way of being human. So in a way, the concepts of heaven, of god, of creation, in the bible, these are all childish analogies used to explain a certain idea in the most primitive way possible. The problem is, no one knows what the truth really is. The book's true message is lost. So in order to "find" the truth, Atheists do literary analysis, while Christians do plot descriptions.

 

[Blackguard_]

What is a 'spirit-body' (excuse my theological ignorance !)

I don't know exactly, jesus post-ressurection is the only example we have. It seems to be some sort of spiritual/physical mix or might be able to switch between the two, for exmaple jesus post-ressurection ate with his discipes like a physical body but he walked through a closed door like a spirit.

We don;t really know much.

For me, yes to some extent, effort, goals, attaining these goals, achivements above the mundane, striving to better ones self and ones enviroment and so on.

Yes, but "work for food" is very, very, mundane.

If fed, clothed, kept warm, loved and attended to in every way I would certainly lose some of the drive that makes me human.

I partially agree, a drive to achieve or something might be part of what it is to be human, but this idoes not mean having to achieve to avoid death is a necessary condition of humanity. Like I said, if the daily grind/rat race/struggle to survive is the defining characteristic of humanity, count me out.

Or, this very much hinges on what you mean by "and attended to in everyway".

Sexuality refers to psychological, physical, and emotional makeup of an individual, it also encompasses gender, gender role, gender identity, social norms, sexual orientation, sexual preference and so on.

But lets dwell on this minor point, I have accepted that by the use of the word 'sexuality' you mean 'intercourse', I understand and accept your use of the word 'sexuality'.

.....and how those things recolve around physical sexuality right?
...quite a broad term...

For example, there are emotional makeup things and social norms that have nothing to do with se.....
you're a Freudian, ain't ya?

I have heard from Muslims and Christians that heaven is free of suffering, sin, sorrow, sadness and so on.

Well they're wrong, unless God in Heaven isn't really unhappy over gay marriage But seriously, if there's no sorrow in Heaven, how can God be sorrowful over sin?

Even if your children are sent to hell for the crime of not believing in whatever god you subscribe to,you will feel no sadness or sorrow, you will still be endlessly, perfectly happy and joyous with god.

Yeah, they didn't think it through. If God sadness over sinners in Heaven, why would they have no sadness over them? The most likely thing is you will see those is hell as God sees them.

I also hear that god will not drug or alter you to think or act a certain way, or to change your mind to forget that your sweet little daughter I am told would be like creating mindless robots to fit his purpose.

I don't subscibe to the "free-will over all!!!" school of theology. People thinking God will never alter their mind are crazy. What do they think God is supposed to do if they pray for more patience for example? God will alter us for heaven.

And yet so much of the notion of heaven and its many implications are logically inconsistent ?

It would seem that heaven fits the desire of the person describing it, it is everything from a feast of desire, sport and pleasure with prolonged periods of sexual intercourse with a selection of vigins and a new perfect body to some, a chance to converse with Einstein and Hitler to others and a kind of vague divorced - bodiless 'mind' or 'spirit' (whatever that may be) basking in the glow of gods love, a kind of state of endless bliss to yet other people.

yeah, speculation due to lack of information of which there is none in the Science world. We know perfectly well what happens in a Singularity and what happened before the Planck time.

Also, Christian Heaven =/= Islam Heaven.

I cannot help thinking that the whole idea is nonsense and a blatant, almost comic tour de force of wishful thinking.

Cause all specualation is wishful thinking right?

But let us return to the original question, let us suppose heaven is this holday camp where you can do whatever you desire,........... What is the point or function of this heaven ?

Does it need one? What's the point of living on Earth? If you are ok no no meaning here, why not there?

I don't know , but I would say the point was to experience and thrive/grow indefinitely. What this world is supposed to be like but more.

(but you cannot sin, but this in no way curtails your absolute free will)

Christian theology is not monolithic, this is not a problem in Lutheranism

Is it simply a 24 hour feast of satisfaction for all time ?

I doubt it.

 

[Blackguard_]

I have no problem with the belief in heaven,

Yeah, right.

but pleasure is a biochemical signal in a human's brain, which, if i'm not mistaken, is left on earth after it dies.

And that biochemical signal is experienced by the soul.

Humans had difficulty trying to come up with the idea of what heaven is like, so being the humans that they were, defined it as a city (because that's where humans live). To suggest that the populace is actually made up of humans who have the capability to have sex is going along this same illogical train of thought.

Heaven having things familiar to humans is an illogical notion how? I know what theory you base your ideas on, but if humans were created by the creator of heaven, why would they be completely alien to each other?

Why can't heaven be a place where humans are beyond simple, primitive things like emotion or pleasure?

1. Not all of us think Vulcans are that great.
2. Not all of us subscribe to trendy Eastern stuff.
3. what makes emptions primitive and cold logic or whatever you want to replace it with better?

What do you mean "beyond" these things? I think in Heaven we will be beyond them the way a Stoic is, you feel them but don't let them control you.

perhaps eternal life and the reward for mortal toil is simply this.

.....? 'this' is?

You don;t mean as in "dead" is beyond emotion or pleasure do you? How Hindu, life is just a suicide attempt. Nirvana is not Heaven.

I think that this thought was shared by many primitive people, and that's how concepts of the afterlife began

And this means an afterlife doesn't exist because.....?


.

As for all the logical fallacies Tynan listed,

Where? Problems with an idea are not automatically fallacies.

what do you expect? If you are trying to convey a point and you make an analogy, the longer you stick with it, the more it detracts from reality.

Humans tend to humanize every complicated and abstract concept in the universe, it's the way of being human. So in a way, the concepts of heaven, of god, of creation, in the bible, these are all childish analogies used to explain a certain idea in the most primitive way possible.

LOL.I always find this amusing.

"humans have a natural tendency to humanize natural phenomenum, which is the origin of the supernatural and hence the supernatural is false. This is nothing at all like the human tendency to recognize patterns in things, and that pattern recongition is Science in a nutshell".

The problem is, no one knows what the truth really is.

Finally, something we agree on.

The book's true message is lost. So in order to "find" the truth, Atheists do literary analysis, while Christians do plot descriptions.

Nah, Athiest's claim the book had no author and look for patterns in word and sentence structure to argue how the book wrote itself while Theists use the writing to argue who the author was and what his house looks like.

 

[Tynan]

I don't know exactly, jesus post-ressurection is the only example we have. It seems to be some sort of spiritual/physical mix or might be able to switch between the two, for exmaple jesus post-ressurection ate with his discipes like a physical body but he walked through a closed door like a spirit.

Thanks for your description of a 'spirit-body' being a spiritual/physical mix, the physical part I can understand (I have one myself !) but what would this 'spiritual' part be ?

How would it walk through a closed door ?

I am still no clearer on what you mean by a 'spirit-body' ?

Yes, but "work for food" is very, very, mundane.

I do not find working for food mundane in any way, if you do I suggest finding employment you enjoy or perhaps grow your own food, I grow around 80% of what we eat and hopefully upwards of 95% in the future.

I enjoy the process. If you find it mundane, there is something wrong.

But let us suppose both your lack of interest in the process and my enjoyment are both removed by being freely 'fed' in heaven, does this not remove part of who we are ?

I partially agree, a drive to achieve or something might be part of what it is to be human, but this idoes not mean having to achieve to avoid death is a necessary condition of humanity. Like I said, if the daily grind/rat race/struggle to survive is the defining characteristic of humanity, count me out.

It is not the defining characteristic of humanity as has already been discussed, but you seem stuck on it being so ?

I will repeat - 'I am not so sure the 'rat race' defines humanity, the phrase represents little more than a personal despondency with the culture of 9-5 full time employment.'

I am not part of any 'rat-race', if you find you are, change it.

But my point remains that some effort, goal, drive, need for achievement or stuggle are part of what it is to be human, I am not referring to the stuggle of commuting to work or trying to get a promotion.

.....and how those things recolve around physical sexuality right?

Yes, of course I have been blinkered, now I see you were right all along ! Let's move on shall we, lets agree that the word 'sexuality' means 'intercourse'.

For example, there are emotional makeup things and social norms that have nothing to do with se.....

Yes there are parts of our emotional makeup and social norms that have nothing to do with sex, it is considered a social norm to show gratitude at gift exchange, this has nothing directly to do with sex - hence your use of the word 'sexuality' to mean 'intercourse' is correct. I congratulate you.

Now back to the topic.

Well they're wrong, unless God in Heaven isn't really unhappy over gay marriage But seriously, if there's no sorrow in Heaven, how can God be sorrowful over sin?

Well I will just have to add another type of heaven to my already long list, in your understanding of heaven we can have negative emotional states.

I suppose at the least this idea gets around the paradox of parents knowing their children are burning in hell and feeling no sorrow or grief, in your description of heaven the parents are free to grieve.

I don't subscibe to the "free-will over all!!!" school of theology. People thinking God will never alter their mind are crazy. What do they think God is supposed to do if they pray for more patience for example? God will alter us for heaven.

yeah, speculation due to lack of information of which there is none in the Science world. We know perfectly well what happens in a Singularity and what happened before the Planck time.

What has this conversation to do with science ?

Are you defending your views by attacking others with no connection or link ?

Why not defend your views of heaven by telling people that drug addicts lie or foreign dictators wield power unfairly ?

They would both be as valid as trying to play your view of heaven off against the study of the physical world.

My point remains un-refuted people from a culture dominated by sexual repression will construct heaven as a place where sex with vigins is freely available all the time and without limit, cultures that place a high value on physical beauty will all 'know' that in heaven they will be getting a perfect 25 year old body to play sport for eternity replacing the obese one they leave behind, people from cultures that place a high value on more intellectual pursuits will conceive a heaven where its populace will rub shoulders with Einstein, Newton, Da Vinci and so on.

Cause all specualation is wishful thinking right?

No, not at all, to speculate necessarily means there is a lack of knowledge/evidence, this means there are at least areas of uncertainty. But when young adults fill these areas with sexual intercourse, artists fill them with conversations with Van Gogh and children fill them with ice cream trees, at the very least you should suspect wishful thinking.

Tynan wrote: What is the point or function of this heaven ?

Does it need one?

Maybe you are right ? Maybe it is pointless existence ? Pointless existence with endless sex and a perfect body, being fed the finest food (manna), all responsibility and effort removed, offending memories removed and so on.

Maybe.

I doubt it.

I doubt it even more so.

 

[elman]

I often wonder if there would be any goal or drive to those who find themselves in the magical kingdom of heaven.

It seems to me that an eternal existence would negate many of the things that make us human, or maybe we would not be human in heaven ?

Just pondering ?

The point would be the same as in this physical life, to respond to the love of God with love.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

.. people from a culture dominated by sexual repression will construct heaven as a place where sex with vigins is freely available all the time and without limit, cultures that place a high value on physical beauty will all 'know' that in heaven they will be getting a perfect 25 year old body to play sport for eternity replacing the obese one they leave behind, people from cultures that place a high value on more intellectual pursuits will conceive a heaven where its populace will rub shoulders with Einstein, Newton, Da Vinci and so on.

Proof again that even a blind squirrel can find a nut now and then.

In this one thing, the boy has a valuable point.

 

[Tynan]

Proof again that even a blind squirrel can find a nut now and then.

In this one thing, the boy has a valuable point.

I don't think the notion that heaven is a product of wishful thinking is in any way a unique or revolutionary idea, many have come to this conclusion, I am certainly far from the first. And to be honest this idea is at a tangent to my main question, that of heaven having any function, goal or purpose.

None the less, I thank you wise prophet for your sanctioning of the point. Proof again that even a great wise man can occasionally lower himself to take the time to approve the work of his minions.

 

[Blackguard_]

Thanks for your description of a 'spirit-body' being a spiritual/physical mix, the physical part I can understand (I have one myself !) but what would this 'spiritual' part be ?

How would it walk through a closed door ?

I am still no clearer on what you mean by a 'spirit-body' ?

Luther said it was by being in the same place at the same time. Walking through a door isn't exactly hard with supernatural powers anyway.

And nobody really knows much about what a "spirit body" is. Like I said, post-ressurection Jesus is the only example, and he technically doesn't do anything that can;t be explained by mircales with just a physical body, like the door thing. It might be a spirit body is much like what we have now but with supernatural powers.

Like I said, we don;t know much.

I do not find working for food mundane in any way, if you do I suggest finding employment you enjoy or perhaps grow your own food, I grow around 80% of what we eat and hopefully upwards of 95% in the future.

Getting rewarded by a hobby isn't what I meant."work for a living" would have been a bette phrase. Sure, some people are lucky and enjoy things they can make a living from, I am not one of them.

I enjoy the process. If you find it mundane, there is something wrong.

Of growing food? Yes, I did enjoy gardening as a kid (now I live in Arizona, and the lawn is about how big the garden was). having to work for a living? no.

But let us suppose both your lack of interest in the process and my enjoyment are both removed by being freely 'fed' in heaven, does this not remove part of who we are ?

Yes. If you like raising food, not being able to that wouldn't be be good.

But on the other hand, in this world things can go badly and you run out of food and either starve or buy it. In heaven if you enjoy raising food, are you going to refuse the free food if your food from farming runs out(I'm assuming you wouldn't have it so the crops succeeded no matter what)?

Or, why can't we have both in Heaven? You off enjoying raising food and me enjoying not having to?

But my point remains that some effort, goal, drive, need for achievement or stuggle are part of what it is to be human, I am not referring to the stuggle of commuting to work or trying to get a promotion.

Agreed, but my point is "struggle to survive" is not necessary to be human. Doing work becasue I enjoy it is not the same as working becasue its either that or starve.

Well I will just have to add another type of heaven to my already long list, in your understanding of heaven we can have negative emotional states.

Differing ideas on something does not mean you have ideas on different things. Different ideas about the same Heaven.

I suppose at the least this idea gets around the paradox of parents knowing their children are burning in hell and feeling no sorrow or grief, in your description of heaven the parents are free to grieve.

Its not a paradox, just something a lot of people hate on a visceral level.

What has this conversation to do with science ?

Are you defending your views by attacking others with no connection or link ?

Why not defend your views of heaven by telling people that drug addicts lie or foreign dictators wield power unfairly ?

They would both be as valid as trying to play your view of heaven off against the study of the physical world.

The point was speculation about something doesn't mean what you are speculating about doesn't exist. A Scientist speculates about black holes based on principles he already knows while a theist speculates heaven based on principles he already knows.
I was not attacking Science, but your apparent "speculation = it doesn;t exist" view on the idea you are OK with Scientists speculating. Why is it ok for Science to speculate but not religion?

My point remains un-refuted

becasue its as easy to refute as mine.

people from a culture dominated by sexual repression will construct heaven as a place where sex with vigins is freely available all the time and without limit

,

That a culture based on rape and pillage with lots and lots of harems and a HUGE sex slave trade is "sexually repressed" seems quite a joke. Muslim women might be sexualluy repressed, but the men sure aint and they are the ones who made up the Islamic heaven.

cultures that place a high value on physical beauty will all 'know' that in heaven they will be getting a perfect 25 year old body to play sport for eternity replacing the obese one they leave behind, people from cultures that place a high value on more intellectual pursuits will conceive a heaven where its populace will rub shoulders with Einstein, Newton, Da Vinci and so on.

And all these places are mutally exlusive right? The Egg-heads can't go off and discuss science or theology or whatever while there's a sports tournament happening and this while people having sex somewhereand the people are beutiful?

And does their being wrong in their speculation necessarily mean what they speculate on doesn;t exist?

No, not at all, to speculate necessarily means there is a lack of knowledge/evidence, this means there are at least areas of uncertainty. But when young adults fill these areas with sexual intercourse, artists fill them with conversations with Van Gogh and children fill them with ice cream trees, at the very least you should suspect wishful thinking.

Agreed, i don;t deny there is a lot of wishful thinking with Heaven, but that does not mean Heaven doesn't exist in any form.

Maybe you are right ? Maybe it is pointless existence ? Pointless existence with endless sex and a perfect body, being fed the finest food (manna), all responsibility and effort removed, offending memories removed and so on.

Maybe.

Manna isn;t the finest food.

Besides, I remember answering this in my last post.

Does this world have a purpose in your view? If not, why demand one of Heaven?

 

[ReluctantProphet]

I am still no clearer on what you mean by a 'spirit-body' ?

The difference between a body and a spirit are exactly the same as the difference between mass and energy.

Your "spirit" or "spiritual body" is the combination of all of your efforts or energies, your desires, urges, wants, passions, behavior.

Your "soul" is the essence of what defines you. It is the very concept of what you are and is from whence your spirit rises once applied to the physical world.

The mistake that the materialist makes is that he thinks that such a spirit can only exist in the body he currently occupies. A better perspective can be revealed in the stories of those who had their entire mind transferred to a computer as a functioning spirit within the computer. Fictional or not, it still carries the idea.

As to your Heaven conversation, you are merely pointing out that people have many varied ideas as to how Heaven is constructed. Obviously many, if not all (I vote for all), have the wrong notion. But this has nothing to do with its existence, only that it is something people don't really know much about.

I can tell you that there are only 2 concerns that can be maintained from any of the notions of Heaven. One is that it is eternal and the other is that it is joyous.

These 2 define the base requirements. The architecture can be derived from there, but people just make assumptions just like with everything else. But their assumptions, right or wrong, have nothing to do with its reality.

 

[Tynan]

Luther said it was by being in the same place at the same time.

I suppose I was looking for an explanation of some kind, but this for me is another meaningless answer, at the very least could you tell me your understanding of "in the same place at the same time" ?

Walking through a door isn't exactly hard with supernatural powers anyway.

No, I suppose not, you can do as you wish with unlimited magical powers, if they were to exist.

It might be a spirit body is much like what we have now but with supernatural powers.

I suppose the catch-all phrase 'supernatural' covers anything and everything.

Getting rewarded by a hobby isn't what I meant."work for a living" would have been a bette phrase. Sure, some people are lucky and enjoy things they can make a living from, I am not one of them.

No luck required, effort is all that is needed to find yourself in a better place than amongst the 'rat-race'. I see food as essential, the fact that I don't buy it in a supermarket does not relegate its status to a 'hobby'.

having to work for a living? no.

There are ways other than doing the: wake - car - work - lunch - work - shop - ipod - home - tv - sleep thing.

I abandoned that trick in 1998, not much fun !

But on the other hand, in this world things can go badly and you run out of food and either starve or buy it.

True, we can run out of food and starve, my point, if I may return to it, is the function of heaven.

In heaven if you enjoy raising food, are you going to refuse the free food if your food from farming runs out(I'm assuming you wouldn't have it so the crops succeeded no matter what)?

Can crops fail in heaven, can people be in jeopardy of starvation and need hand outs ?

Or, why can't we have both in Heaven? You off enjoying raising food and me enjoying not having to?

Yes this works for me, but the underlying problem will always be that the effort will never be real unless it carries the inherent risk of failure, is it really a challenge to grow fantastic tomatoes when they will never fail regardless of effort or lack of. And if we allow failure will it carry disappointment, and how much disappointment do we allow before divine intervention, can someone spend an eternity in heaven disappointed at their on-going failures ?

Tynan wrote: Well I will just have to add another type of heaven to my already long list, in your understanding of heaven we can have negative emotional states.

Differing ideas on something does not mean you have ideas on different things. Different ideas about the same Heaven.

The various and numerous myriad of heavens do seem very divorced from one another, we are not talking about whether you wear white or pink, but just about every fundemental aspect seems to have an array of widely differing views.

Tynane wrote: I suppose at the least this idea gets around the paradox of parents knowing their children are burning in hell and feeling no sorrow or grief, in your description of heaven the parents are free to grieve.

Its not a paradox, just something a lot of people hate on a visceral level.

It seems paradoxical to me, I stuggle with the idea that in heaven you are said to be joyously happy basking in the light of gods wonder and yet all your friends, children, parents, those you have loved and liked, all the fine people you have met and admired may be writhing in the ovens of hell in endless torture.

But as you have said you believe god changes you for heaven, so I presume your memory is altered or the part of you that feels compassion and empathy is altered ?

This simply ignites another issue which is that of god creating or designing through modification creatures to fit his heaven thus throwing a dark shadow over the notion of free will.

A Scientist speculates about black holes based on principles he already knows while a theist speculates heaven based on principles he already knows.

My point would be that a theist speculates heaven on what he wishes.

You will stuggle to find a scientist who speculates that faling to a black hole will take them to a world where they are constantly offered sex with nubile virgins of their liking, asked to test prototype sports cars and play for all the major league sports teams (and win).

They will probaly tell you how you will be torn apart by the gravitational forces.

My point is that a comparison with science is not valid, the two are very different, science is not driven by desire, wishful thinking is not a valid scientific method.

I was not attacking Science, but your apparent "speculation = it doesn;t exist" view on the idea...

I have not said this, if you think I have said this you have misunderstood.

you are OK with Scientists speculating. Why is it ok for Science to speculate but not religion?

Feel free to speculate, as I have mentioned, I have nowhere on this thread said you must not speculate.

And does their being wrong in their speculation necessarily mean what they speculate on doesn;t exist?

No, it their speculation merely illustrates the wishful thinking involved in their versions of heaven.

Agreed, i don;t deny there is a lot of wishful thinking with Heaven, but that does not mean Heaven doesn't exist in any form.

What is does indicate is that wishful thinking is at work in the Christian view of heaven.

Nothing indicates heaven exists.

Does this world have a purpose in your view? If not, why demand one of Heaven?

Yes, numerous purposes, drives, needs, wishes, hopes and goals.

I am not so much 'demanding' a purpose from heaven, (indeed why would I, I list heaven alongside goblins, vampires, ghosts, and the tortoises that the world is sitting on) I am just pondering as to what those who has do believe think it point may be.

 

[Tynan]

The difference between a body and a spirit are exactly the same as the difference between mass and energy.

Your "spirit" or "spiritual body" is the combination of all of your efforts or energies, your desires, urges, wants, passions, behavior.

How are they combined and into or onto what ?

Your "soul" is the essence of what defines you.

What is a soul ?

It is the very concept of what you are and is from whence your spirit rises once applied to the physical world.

Spirit, soul, spirit rises, this is poetry, not understanding ?

The mistake that the materialist makes is that he thinks that such a spirit can only exist in the body he currently occupies.

Where does he think it is in his body ?

A better perspective can be revealed in the stories of those who had their entire mind transferred to a computer as a functioning spirit within the computer. Fictional or not, it still carries the idea.

How would one have his or her mind transferred to a computer ?

And what would this 'functioning spirit' have to do with it ?

Forgive me but this sounds like language intended to cause confusion or bewilderment, it is utter nonsense !

As to your Heaven conversation, you are merely pointing out that people have many varied ideas as to how Heaven is constructed.

I am pointing out that it is they who have constructed this heaven in their imaginations and of their imaginations.

Obviously many, if not all (I vote for all), have the wrong notion. But this has nothing to do with its existence, only that it is something people don't really know much about.

I can tell you that there are only 2 concerns that can be maintained from any of the notions of Heaven. One is that it is eternal and the other is that it is joyous.

These 2 define the base requirements. The architecture can be derived from there, but people just make assumptions just like with everything else. But their assumptions, right or wrong, have nothing to do with its reality.

Indeed.

How do you understand the joyous aspect of heaven, especially in the light of the apparent paradox of having loved ones simultaneously burn in hell ?

 

[TeddyKGB]

The difference between a body and a spirit are exactly the same as the difference between mass and energy.

How do you know that? No physicist has ever rigorously studied "spirit."

Your "spirit" or "spiritual body" is the combination of all of your efforts or energies, your desires, urges, wants, passions, behavior.

Why does brain damage often change those things if they are non-physical?

Your "soul" is the essence of what defines you. It is the very concept of what you are and is from whence your spirit rises once applied to the physical world.

The mistake that the materialist makes is that he thinks that such a spirit can only exist in the body he currently occupies. A better perspective can be revealed in the stories of those who had their entire mind transferred to a computer as a functioning spirit within the computer. Fictional or not, it still carries the idea.

Why is the materialist mistaken? Perhaps you are mistaken. You don't exactly have anything beyond a just-so story at this point.

 

[Blackguard_]

I suppose I was looking for an explanation of some kind, but this for me is another meaningless answer,

What did you want? A Scientific explanation of something non-Scientific?

at the very least could you tell me your understanding of "in the same place at the same time" ?

just that, occupying the same space without either distorting to make room for the other. Yes, I know this is BS to you...

No luck required, effort is all that is needed to find yourself in a better place than amongst the 'rat-race'.

Sure, if I worked hard in land development and speculation I could make a ton of money, but I find no enjoyment in land development and speculation.

I meant lucky enough to have something that makes money you enjoy doing.

I see food as essential, the fact that I don't buy it in a supermarket does not relegate its status to a 'hobby'.

Perhaps, but you enjoy raising food right?

There are ways other than doing the: wake - car - work - lunch - work - shop - ipod - home - tv - sleep thing.

I abandoned that trick in 1998, not much fun !

How?

Can crops fail in heaven,

That depends on if you want them to. Like the challenge of farming? It could be arranged so the crops might fail. Don't like the challenge? Then don't havbe it. Why do you insist on a "one size fits all" Heaven?

can people be in jeopardy of starvation and need hand outs ?

No, food there is for enjoyment, not necessity.

es

this works for me, but the underlying problem will always be that the effort will never be real unless it carries the inherent risk of failure, is it really a challenge to grow fantastic tomatoes when they will never fail regardless of effort or lack of.

Answered above. Why must Heaven be the same for all?

t seems paradoxical to me, I stuggle with the idea that in heaven you are said to be joyously happy basking in the light of gods wonder and yet all your friends, children, parents, those you have loved and liked, all the fine people you have met and admired may be writhing in the ovens of hell in endless torture.

Ok its a paradox. Seems like a false dichotomy though. We either have to have platered on smiles or do nothing but agonize over those in hell?

But as you have said you believe god changes you for heaven, so I presume your memory is altered or the part of you that feels compassion and empathy is altered ?

I don't know how exactly we'll be changed. Why would compassion have to be lessened?

This simply ignites another issue which is that of god creating or designing through modification creatures to fit his heaven thus throwing a dark shadow over the notion of free will.

Yes yes it does. NOT ALL CHRSTIANS BELIEVE IN FREE WILL.

And if we allow failure will it carry disappointment, and how much disappointment do we allow before divine intervention, can someone spend an eternity in heaven disappointed at their on-going failures ?

Don't know how much.

My point would be that a theist speculates heaven on what he wishes.

And that isn't necessarily so. If Heaven is whatever the person likes best within limits, then why shouldn;t he speculate Heaven based on his likes, if heaven is going to be basically what he speculates?

You will stuggle to find a scientist who speculates that faling to a black hole will take them to a world where they are constantly offered sex with nubile virgins of their liking, asked to test prototype sports cars and play for all the major league sports teams (and win).

Right, because it violates principles of Science, like how you'd be hard pressed to find a Chrsitan who says in Heaven we'll get drunk all the time and worship Beptune.

My point is that a comparison with science is not valid, the two are very different, science is not driven by desire, wishful thinking is not a valid scientific method.

Didn't Einstein tack on the Cosmological Constant since he hated the idea of an expanding universe?

Anyway, I see what you mean though, but I never meant to imply they were perfectly analagous.

And religion is not driven by desire.

What is does indicate is that wishful thinking is at work in the Christian view of heaven.

This proves Heaven exists in no form how....?

Nothing in Materialist Patternism indicates heaven exists.

Fixed.

Yes, numerous purposes, drives, needs, wishes, hopes and goals.

And I beleive heaven has a simialr purpose, a s a place to realize and work toward dreams and goals and also to relax, depending on what you want do.