What is the point in eternal life ?

[Tynan]

What did you want? A Scientific explanation of something non-Scientific?

I was after a meaningful explanation of what you understood a 'spirit-body' to be.

Your answer of "Luther said it was by being in the same place at the same time." adds little to my understanding.

I suppose this may be the difference between us, perhaps the difference between religious people and non-religious people even ?

I cannot accept something with such vague definition, of course we now get to the 'faith' part of the whole thing, and I am sure this is one of the many situations that one must take on 'faith', but this to me is a placeholder for 'I don't know, I don't want or need to know'

Being told a 'spirit-body' is "being in the same place at the same time" is, for me at least, no more valid than being told your 'magic-fire' is the "central light energy of your life channel" - of course this is just nonsense I have made up and the singular way I could get someone to accept it, outside of coercion, would be to ask them to not question and simply believe - that is - take it on 'faith'.

Without 'faith' terms like spirit, soul, ghost and so on are nonsense terms with vague and various definitions depending on the person.

With 'faith' the terms remain meaningless but circumnavigate the problem by removing the need to understand or explain.

just that, occupying the same space without either distorting to make room for the other. Yes, I know this is BS to you...

And is it BS to you ?

Do you have at least a small part of you that asks itself, is this BS ?

Maybe not, maybe it is gone ?

It is not so much I think it is BS as nonsensical, I mean that in its purest form in that the words have no meaning or make no sense.

Of course the typical theist riposte will be "well it makes no sense to you" implying a secret understanding - perhaps even gifted to them by whatever god they subscribe to - but the nature of 'faith' in truth means it makes no sense to either of us.

(I am not saying this would be your response - just a typical response from a theist - I know all too well how frustrating it is to have people put words in your mouth on a forum)

Tynan wrote: No luck required, effort is all that is needed to find yourself in a better place than amongst the 'rat-race'.

Sure, if I worked hard in land development and speculation I could make a ton of money, but I find no enjoyment in land development and speculation.

I meant lucky enough to have something that makes money you enjoy doing.

Reading my post again I can see how I might be misunderstood.

I was in fact trying to remove money from being the central focus. It is telling that in your two 'options' both focus on the money, your more ideal second choice being:

"something that makes money you enjoy doing"

and not:

"something you enjoy doing that makes money "

It is a small point, and I don't want to come off as some internet hippy/wiseman/idiot telling people they can survive on mung beans and a teepee, but when I say "effort is all that is needed" I mean to say that effort should be focused on finding something you enjoy doing and work to make it viable.

Tynan wrote:There are ways other than doing the: wake - car - work - lunch - work - shop - ipod - home - tv - sleep thing.

I abandoned that trick in 1998, not much fun !

How?

I worked hard in land development and speculation, no! that was a joke

Remove the emboldened parts:

wake - car - work - lunch - work - shop - ipod - home - tv - sleep

Mind you I have my eye on a video ipod

That depends on if you want them to. Like the challenge of farming? It could be arranged so the crops might fail. Don't like the challenge? Then don't havbe it.

Is it really a challenge to arrange to have your crops fail knowing that god will not let you starve to death ?

Or maybe in your heaven this is another option and if requested he will let you starve to death ?

Why do you insist on a "one size fits all" Heaven?

I am trying to find an understanding as to what a theist thinks heaven is, perhaps some consensus even.

It is not so much that I 'insist' on a 'one size fits all" Heaven' (indeed, I do not believe heaven) it is just that the opposite, the 'you can do what the hell you like, you like sports cars? - hell! have 200 - you like being a doctor? - great! do you want this patient to live or to die?' heaven, does comes with its own problems, its own internal logical inconsistencies, its own strange profundities.

Tynan wrote: can people be in jeopardy of starvation and need hand outs ?

No, food there is for enjoyment, not necessity.

So your crops can fail, but you cannot starve, you would like the challenge to grow your own food to acheive something beyond a handout, but failure carries with it no risk.

There is no challenge here.

This is part of what I mean by heavens removal of our human character, without lifes challenges (please don't bring this back to your own despondency with the employment culture you may have chosen !) whether it is the simple growing of food or trainning of an animal or learning to rock climb everything is risk free, there is no challenge.

This would be one of the many parts we lose from our human character.

Tynan wrote: It seems paradoxical to me, I stuggle with the idea that in heaven you are said to be joyously happy basking in the light of gods wonder and yet all your friends, children, parents, those you have loved and liked, all the fine people you have met and admired may be writhing in the ovens of hell in endless torture..

Ok its a paradox. Seems like a false dichotomy though. We either have to have platered on smiles or do nothing but agonize over those in hell?

What would you suggest then ?

A removal of the memory of your past, your character, your loved ones, your empathy perhaps ?

The dichotomy is between the idea that one is joyous in heaven and one is aware that their loved ones are being tortured.

It is a real paradox.

I don't know how exactly we'll be changed. Why would compassion have to be lessened?

Sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of your loved ones in hell would (as you point out above) have you do nothing but agonize over those in hell.

This, to me, would not sit well with the notion that one is joyously happy in heaven.

That part of you would not have to be lessened, it would have to be removed !

Tynan wrote: This simply ignites another issue which is that of god creating or designing through modification creatures to fit his heaven thus throwing a dark shadow over the notion of free will.

Yes yes it does. NOT ALL CHRSTIANS BELIEVE IN FREE WILL.

Then is it really 'you' who is in heaven with your body gone and replaced by that of a perfect 25 year old (even if your own body was in a wheelchair) and with your mind altered to forget those you once loved ?

Tynan wrote: My point would be that a theist speculates heaven on what he wishes..

And that isn't necessarily so. If Heaven is whatever the person likes best within limits, then why shouldn;t he speculate Heaven based on his likes, if heaven is going to be basically what he speculates?

"If Heaven is whatever the person likes best within limits"

This is the speculation.

And religion is not driven by desire.

You may be right in that there are numerous factors drving religion - but I would say that the desire to be saved from death and travel to a magical kingdom where everything is good and wonderful has always been a big crowd puller.

Tynan wrote: What it does indicate is that wishful thinking is at work in the Christian view of heaven..

This proves Heaven exists in no form how....?

It does not say anything about heaven being real or not.

Nothing in Materialist Patternism indicates heaven exists.

No really, nothing indicates heaven exists, but much points towards a desirous human fantasy.

And I beleive heaven has a simialr purpose, a s a place to realize and work toward dreams and goals and also to relax, depending on what you want do.

What could any of these goals or dreams possibly be ?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Tynan, I don`t know whether you are teasing, or pretending not to know at all ? The point of eternal life is, to be what God made us, in the very beginning. He made us in His image, we had heavenly bodies, and we were meant to be with Him for ever. When Adam believed the lies of the Serpent, rather than God`s loving advice not to eat off the forbidden tree, we were banned from God`s presence, onto Earth. We were given bodies of flesh and blood, which last only three score ten or four score years, sometimes longer, or less. We are on Earth to learn to to love God again, love Him with all our being, and also learn to love each other. Heaven, God`s Kingdom is our real home, and only when we are as God intended us to be before we ignored Him, in other words worthy, as He is worthy, we will return to our home again. Jesus came to show us how it can be done, in fact, He gave His Life`s Blood to reconcile us to God. He is the Way and the Truth, and the Bible, God`s Word, will tell us much more in detail, HOW to repent, to change into who we were before, and will be for eternity. I say this humbly and lovingly, Tynan, and thousands of Christian men and = women can, and will testify to the truth of this. Heaven was meant for us all along, and only a loving Father will know what is wonderful, and absolutely satisfying for All His Children. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Tynan]

Dear Tynan, I don`t know whether you are teasing, or pretending not to know at all ?

I am neither teasing nor pretending not to know.

With regard to heaven, I actually do not know.

I hear many conflicting and widely differing concepts. Take a stroll through this thread and you will see what I mean.

The point of eternal life is, to be what God made us, in the very beginning.

Why would it need to be eternal ?

He made us in His image, we had heavenly bodies, and we were meant to be with Him for ever. When Adam believed the lies of the Serpent, rather than God`s loving advice not to eat off the forbidden tree, we were banned from God`s presence, onto Earth. We were given bodies of flesh and blood, which last only three score ten or four score years, sometimes longer, or less. We are on Earth to learn to to love God again, love Him with all our being, and also learn to love each other.

So if I have this right, my life is a punitive trial to see if I can pass a test ?

And the reason is because a talking snake told our common ancestor to eat an apple and he did just that.

Emmy, why would I believe this story, it sounds remarkable by its similarity to ancient myths and stories ?

Why did god make the snake place in in heaven and give it the power to deceive ?

Where was the garden of Eden, on earth or in heaven ?

Heaven, God`s Kingdom is our real home, and only when we are as God intended us to be before we ignored Him, in other words worthy, as He is worthy, we will return to our home again.

Why do you believe this to be in any way truthful ?

Tynan, and thousands of Christian men and = women can, and will testify to the truth of this.

How do they know ?

Heaven was meant for us all along, and only a loving Father will know what is wonderful, and absolutely satisfying for All His Children. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Why does Zeus or Cronus not simply put us in heaven and forget all the trials and torture ?

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy
The point of eternal life is, to be what God made us, in the very beginning.


Why would it need to be eternal ?

You already have a temporary existence. Why would you want the next life to be temporary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy
He made us in His image, we had heavenly bodies, and we were meant to be with Him for ever. When Adam believed the lies of the Serpent, rather than God`s loving advice not to eat off the forbidden tree, we were banned from God`s presence, onto Earth. We were given bodies of flesh and blood, which last only three score ten or four score years, sometimes longer, or less. We are on Earth to learn to to love God again, love Him with all our being, and also learn to love each other.


So if I have this right, my life is a punitive trial to see if I can pass a test ?

You have been given the gift of this life. Perhaps if you use it to become a loving being you will have an opportunity for the next gift.

And the reason is because a talking snake told our common ancestor to eat an apple and he did just that.

No the reason is that we cannot love unless we have the ability to not love.

Why did god make the snake and give it the power to deceive ?

Perhaps if such a snake actually existed, the same reason He gave you the ability to be unloving to people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy
Heaven, God`s Kingdom is our real home, and only when we are as God intended us to be before we ignored Him, in other words worthy, as He is worthy, we will return to our home again.


Why do you believe this to be in any way truthful ?

It is a possible explantion of why we exist. Do you have a better explanation?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy
Tynan, and thousands of Christian men and = women can, and will testify to the truth of this.

How do they know ?

No one know. All thinks spiritual are taken on faith, not on emperical evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy
Heaven was meant for us all along, and only a loving Father will know what is wonderful, and absolutely satisfying for All His Children. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Why does Zeus or Cronus not simply put us in heaven and forget all the trials and torture ?

No one ever said Zeus or Cronus loved us that I know of? Nor did they ever offer an explantion for why I exist?