What is the percentage of good to bad men?

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Next time you’re bored or wake up on the exegetical side of the bed I would look forward to your analysis in how Elihu was wrong - I see nothing in the scripture to suggest this myself.

Historically, Calvin’s commentary on Elihu apparently favored Elihu’s position. From Tony Reinke’s review of Derek Thomas’ book on Job:



John Piper’s thoughts on the matter also seem to align.

Anyway, not to derail the thread off topic I’ll leave it at that.

Elihu was the youngest and sat still and silent the longest, but I know offhand that he was right in being stirred to wrath because Job thought his integrity nonnegotiable whereas God needed to strip Job of that thought to replace with God's righteousness. Maybe just for declaring his opinion against what he knew nothing about, since he was not there at the beginning to know God's ultimate answer to how things were.
He flattered not anyone but kept as close to the thoughts of God as possible, I just don't agree that he was blameless, especially since not only Job wasn't and Job was placed above them as priest to pray for them.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Elihu was the youngest and sat still and silent the longest, but I know offhand that he was right in being stirred to wrath because Job thought his integrity nonnegotiable whereas God needed to strip Job of that thought to replace with God's righteousness. Maybe just for declaring his opinion against what he knew nothing about, since he was not there at the beginning to know God's ultimate answer to how things were.
He flattered not anyone but kept as close to the thoughts of God as possible, I just don't agree that he was blameless, especially since not only Job wasn't and Job was placed above them as priest to pray for them.

Thanks for your thoughts… Job is likely my favorite book in the bible, and to me in many ways is an enigma, with the character of Elihu an enigma-inside-the-enigma

He just seems to appear (with allusion to having been present during the other speeches) and then equally vanish once he’s done. His name can be interpreted as “God it was indeed” (i.e. who acted when the child was born).

Wonderful.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Thanks for your thoughts… Job is likely my favorite book in the bible, and to me in many ways is an enigma, with the character of Elihu an enigma-inside-the-enigma

He just seems to appear (with allusion to having been present during the other speeches) and then equally vanish once he’s done. His name can be interpreted as “God it was indeed” (i.e. who acted when the child was born).

Wonderful.

Well Elihu does say plainly in Job 33:6 I am the same as you in God’s sight;
I too am a piece of clay.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Whether or not Job or Elihu were a prefigure of Christ it is still the Father who is in control. Is that the moral to the story? According to the Heavenly Father it is Him alone.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Whether or not Job or Elihu were a prefigure of Christ it is still the Father who is in control. Is that the moral to the story? According to the Heavenly Father it is Him alone.

I’ve yet to draw any typological implications from Job or Elihu (well, other than perhaps that Job stands in for all of mankind, especially mankind that is righteous and thus primed with the belief that strife “can’t happen to me… look at how good I am, look at my devotion!”).

Ultimately, it’s God’s movie and we’re just the actors. So we act and participate in the drama.

Isaiah 27:2–5 (ESV):

In that day,
“A pleasant vineyard, sing of it!
I, the Lord, am its keeper;
every moment I water it.
Lest anyone punish it,
I keep it night and day;
I have no wrath.
Would that I had thorns and briers to battle!
I would march against them,
I would burn them up together.
Or let them lay hold of my protection,
let them make peace with me,
let them make peace with me.”

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I’ve yet to draw any typological implications from Job or Elihu (well, other than perhaps that Job stands in for all of mankind, especially mankind that is righteous and thus primed with the belief that strife “can’t happen to me… look at how good I am, look at my devotion!”).

Ultimately, it’s God’s movie and we’re just the actors. So we act and participate in the drama.

Isaiah 27:2–5 (ESV):

In that day,
“A pleasant vineyard, sing of it!
I, the Lord, am its keeper;
every moment I water it.
Lest anyone punish it,
I keep it night and day;
I have no wrath.
Would that I had thorns and briers to battle!
I would march against them,
I would burn them up together.
Or let them lay hold of my protection,
let them make peace with me,
let them make peace with me.”

I don't believe we are pawns tho. Free choice is something that is not written in stone once a choice is made unless it is in following Christ. A matter of debate there of course. Following wholeheartedly is another story. But that is where rewards or loss of rewards comes in. Nevertheless, we all have a great cloud of witnesses surrounding whatever is taking place and Christ will set the story straight.

 

[Leaf473]

Job 5

1“Cry for help, but will anyone answer you?
Which of the angelsa will help you?
2Surely resentment destroys the fool,
and jealousy kills the simple.
3I have seen that fools may be successful for the moment,
but then comes sudden disaster.
4Their children are abandoned far from help;
they are crushed in court with no one to defend them.
5The hungry devour their harvest,
even when it is guarded by brambles.b
The thirsty pant after their wealth.c
6But evil does not spring from the soil,
and trouble does not sprout from the earth.
7People are born for trouble
as readily as sparks fly up from a fire.

8“If I were you, I would go to God
and present my case to him.

That is the school of thought of one of Job's friends. Thanks

I thought that's what you were saying in post #54, basically that there is lots of trouble in the world. That's the scripture that came to my mind.

It's the Christian advice forum. You asked for advice, I gave advice. If you don't think it was good advice, please don't follow it.

Peace be with you always, my sister!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If we had unpleasant childhoods, which many have, we should all be elbow deep in psychoanalysis. That's probably true but paints a picture of a web of ever-increasing dysfunctionality within the family dynamic. Also, an almost hopeless case for them. But I can't disagree.

I thought that's what you were saying in post #54, basically that there is lots of trouble in the world. That's the scripture that came to my mind.

It's the Christian advice forum. You asked for advice, I gave advice. If you don't think it was good advice, please don't follow it.

Peace be with you always, my sister!

I didn't say that your advice was bad. I think we all need to be able to talk things out and that's perhaps where Christian confession comes in. I know you're a believer in talking to each other in psalms and hymns because we both participate in a thread, so the idea that these things should be talked about should be center stage. I find that it's those who are worshipping at the throne of masculinity that are shroud in silence. Btw I did take your advice as I said.

 

[Leaf473]

I didn't say that your advice was bad. I think we all need to be able to talk things out and that's perhaps where Christian confession comes in. I know you're a believer in talking to each other in psalms and hymns because we both participate in a thread, so the idea that these things should be talked about should be center stage. I find that it's those who are worshipping at the throne of masculinity that are shroud in silence. Btw I did take your advice as I said.

Sounds good! I thought you were implying that my input was similar to that of Job's comforters when you wrote this

That is the school of thought of one of Job's friends. Thanks

But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

Anyways, I know we both say Amen to Psalm 133
See how good and how pleasant it is
for brothers and sisters to live together in unity!

2

It is like the precious oil on the head,
that ran down on the beard,
even Aaron’s beard,
that came down on the edge of his robes,

3

like the dew of Hermon,
that comes down on the hills of Zion;
for there the Lord gives the blessing,
even life forever more.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Sounds good! I thought you were implying that my input was similar to that of Job's comforters when you wrote this


But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

Anyways, I know we both say Amen to Psalm 133
See how good and how pleasant it is
for brothers and sisters to live together in unity!

2

It is like the precious oil on the head,
that ran down on the beard,
even Aaron’s beard,
that came down on the edge of his robes,

3

like the dew of Hermon,
that comes down on the hills of Zion;
for there the Lord gives the blessing,
even life forever more.

My objections to school of thought were that they were humanist ways of performing cures and like Job's friends they were from a legalist point of view. I don't think it can be overcome from that perspective. When God the Father performs His cure on us it is to apply His righteousness on us and not our own. Not to say that psych analogy is legalistic either. I'm sorry that this has gotten off track, but it brought out some good points.

ETA I'm saying anything not in God's way is legalism from the aspect of Job's friends.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Sounds good!

Anyways, I know we both say Amen to Psalm 133
See how good and how pleasant it is
for brothers and sisters to live together in unity!
.

:Amen:

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

dble post & getting off topic again

 

[Leaf473]

dble post

No, I haven't heard of that book. Sounds interesting!

 

[Brad D.]

No I'm not in that position. I've chosen to be celibate and live on my own even for the sake of my children. I think it's bothering me still because my brothers probably never knew the resentment that I felt toward them for choosing to be friends with someone who would hurt their sister. That hurts the worst. But it's the resentment now that I know causes bitter roots. It was all a long time ago and my brothers have passes away, but it still brings tears to my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I know there are good men out there but I am interested in the op question according to other females.

I have had this on my heart to ask for a couple of days. Before your brothers passed away did you ever try and talk about these issues or do you think in any meaningful way they ever recognized some of the things they did and try and talk with you? I realize from your post above obviously there were many things left unresolved, but did you ever come close to any degree to reconciling with them, and if not what prohibited it do you feel? Or do you feel the Lord had you to bear it in silence as He did when "He said not a a word". From mature Christians especially, I think it is important for others to read how such processes are worked out over time in them. Maybe that can be a point of healing for you also, in helping others through these things?

From my own experience I don't think there is any set right answer at any given time, each day is lived by the Spirit, some day there may be a word in season, but then sometimes silence and bearing the reproach is the right course. I ask this because I know from my own experiences the peculiar scars families can inflict upon us. And as with most families a lot of time the elephant is left in the room that every one knows is there but no one is willing to deal with or do not have the depth or Spirit in them to deal with it any spiritually significant way. So therefore if it is addressed if done in the Spirit often cannot be received, unless the Lord's miraculous intervention, and so is often done out of the sensitivity of the flesh which usually is more conducive to making the matter worse more than anything.

If this is addressed elsewhere and I have missed it please forgive me and just direct me to the appropriate posts?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I have had this on my heart to ask for a couple of days. Before your brothers passed away did you ever try and talk about these issues or do you think in any meaningful way they ever recognized some of the things they did and try and talk with you?

It caused quite a rift on my part but I never tried to talk about it because I didn't formulate it in my own mind until after they had passed away. We were still too deep in the family dynamics to do so.

I realize from your post above obviously there were many things left unresolved, but did you ever come close to any degree to reconciling with them, and if not what prohibited it do you feel?

Oh yes but it caused me some huge less-than issues. In fact I looked up to them as heroic in other ways. One was very much Christian and the other the big brother image in my eyes so in that weird way we were reconciled because they were very good at playing their role and I just felt that I had no role to play but the silent fool. I don't know if that makes sense or not.

Or do you feel the Lord had you to bear it in silence as He did when "He said not a a word".

that would have been true of the unbelieving brother but the Christian I actually remember asking him if he were a silent partner with my ex in the misery he had dealt out. The silence was brought out from phycological reasons. It remained a problem in my life.

From mature Christians especially, I think it is important for others to read how such processes are worked out over time in them. Maybe that can be a point of healing for you also, in helping others through these things?

I don't doubt it. I may have been extreme case but then maybe not. But I think my focus on the family that I see it played out in is what really effected me more than what I went thru during my young adulthood. In saying that I mean that I wish I could have been able to be at rest with that part of the rest of adulthood where it pertained to siblings.

From my own experience I don't think there is any set right answer at any given time, each day is lived by the Spirit, some day there may be a word in season, but then sometimes silence and bearing the reproach is the right course.

I was a Christian the whole time, in close fellowship with the Lord, so I don't know either, but bearing the reproach was something that I felt and still do. That is not to say that my brothers didn't. I don't believe they should have born my reproach either and perhaps that is what stopped me from bringing it up. Again I don't know.

I ask this because I know from my own experiences the peculiar scars families can inflict upon us. And as with most families a lot of time the elephant is left in the room that every one knows is there but no one is willing to deal with or do not have the depth or Spirit in them to deal with it any spiritually significant way.

This is important because the depth of Spirit is calling out to the depth of our humanity but seems to deep to be reached because it pertains to the height of One and the depth of humanity. Words cannot describe where each person falls on the various levels of truth. When truth is deep it can understand all the levels below it. When it is shallow it can understand little. But words can break the barriers.

So therefore if it is addressed if done in the Spirit often cannot be received, unless the Lord's miraculous intervention, and so is often done out of the sensitivity of the flesh which usually is more conducive to making the matter worse more than anything.

Exactly

If this is addressed elsewhere and I have missed it please forgive me and just direct me to the appropriate posts?

No it wasn't and I was hoping that it would be.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I might add that I didn't see them very often either until the time of their passing when they needed care.

 

[Brad D.]

It caused quite a rift on my part but I never tried to talk about it because I didn't formulate it in my own mind until after they had passed away. We were still too deep in the family dynamics to do so.

Oh yes but it caused me some huge less-than issues. In fact I looked up to them as heroic in other ways. One was very much Christian and the other the big brother image in my eyes so in that weird way we were reconciled because they were very good at playing their role and I just felt that I had no role to play but the silent fool. I don't know if that makes sense or not.

that would have been true of the unbelieving brother but the Christian I actually remember asking him if he were a silent partner with my ex in the misery he had dealt out. The silence was brought out from phycological reasons. It remained a problem in my life.

I don't doubt it. I may have been extreme case but then maybe not. But I think my focus on the family that I see it played out in is what really effected me more than what I went thru during my young adulthood. In saying that I mean that I wish I could have been able to be at rest with that part of the rest of adulthood where it pertained to siblings.

I was a Christian the whole time, in close fellowship with the Lord, so I don't know either, but bearing the reproach was something that I felt and still do. That is not to say that my brothers didn't. I don't believe they should have born my reproach either and perhaps that is what stopped me from bringing it up. Again I don't know.

This is important because the depth of Spirit is calling out to the depth of our humanity but seems to deep to be reached because it pertains to the height of One and the depth of humanity. Words cannot describe where each person falls on the various levels of truth. When truth is deep it can understand all the levels below it. When it is shallow it can understand little. But words can break the barriers.

Exactly

No it wasn't and I was hoping that it would be.

Wow, very interesting. I will give it some time to digest. I feel the hurts in my own life and yours as well. God bless! The Lord is good. He always sees us through!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Wow, very interesting. I will give it some time to digest. I feel the hurts in my own life and yours as well. God bless! The Lord is good. He always sees us through!

Thanks for the interest. The subject really came up for me when I was reading an article on the abuses amongst the over privileged and the reasons they endured them. It got me thinking about everyone and why they endure it. But for me the lasting effect was isolation from my family as I see it now. Maybe that was the reason I stayed for as long as I did and couldn't be reconciled later. As Leaf said there is much to be untangled from the web of human interactions.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Wow, very interesting. I will give it some time to digest. I feel the hurts in my own life and yours as well. God bless! The Lord is good. He always sees us through!

Prayers for the hurts in yourlife also/ Thank you!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Another aspect of the schools of thought on abuse are the shame to guilt ratio. There is a difference. Shame is what someone else has done. That may be what my brothers and I both carried. Guilt is what one person does on their own that places shame on another. That is what the ex carried alone in my case scenerio. I don't place blame on anyone else so I guess that act of abuse caused us all to be ashamed. Despising the shame is that outside the camp experience of enduring I would think. Not that I wasn't also guilty of inflicting shame on the ex by not respecting him as he thought fit...... I'm sure there are many females not speaking up that know what I'm talking about. That strange silence again.