What is the nature of man?

[The Nihilist]

you are underestimating the human minds capacity for self-destruction.

moving toward your goals is rational. moving away from your goals would be irrational. yet people do exactly that. the goals themselves are more or less irrelevant.

No one is denying that human beings have the capacity of reason. On the other hand, we also have some nonrational capacities. The two function together in a nice way.

 

[granpa]

No one is denying that human beings have the capacity of reason. On the other hand, we also have some nonrational capacities. The two function together in a nice way.

once again:
one has to separate 'what' people do from 'why' they do it. 'what' a person does can sometimes be irrational if they have a rational reason 'why' they should do it.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Whether or not you like broccoli is not a "human act" in the first place.

 

[The Nihilist]

once again:
one has to separate 'what' people do from 'why' they do it. 'what' a person does can sometimes be irrational if they have a rational reason 'why' they should do it.

Actually, I think if the have a rational reason for doing something, it is necessarily rational.

 

[granpa]

Actually, I think if the have a rational reason for doing something, it is necessarily rational.

oh really? then why do people act irrationally then?

for no reason?

 

[The Nihilist]

oh really? then why do people act irrationally then?

for no reason?

I imagine it's because people sometimes follow their irrational tendencies, rather than their rational ones. For example, if you called my mom a [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth], rationally, I'd know I should just ignore you and get on with my life. I'd probably be overwhelmed by my passions, though, and sock you good.

 

[granpa]

whats irrational about that?

i think we are, as usual in these types of discussions, talking past one another.

 

[quatona]

What is the nature of man?

Which man?

 

[The Nihilist]

whats irrational about that?

i think we are, as usual in these types of discussions, talking past one another.

What's irrational is that I've let my passions run wild and get me into trouble, when I should have followed the more reasonable course and ignored you for calling my mom a dirty name, in the example.

 

[granpa]

What's irrational is that I've let my passions run wild and get me into trouble, when I should have followed the more reasonable course and ignored you for calling my mom a dirty name, in the example.

ever heard of 'righteous anger'?

edit: anger doesnt have to be impulsive nor does it have to be hateful. if someone insults you why wouldnt you be angry?

 

[Eudaimonist]

ever heard of 'righteous anger'?

Ever hear of unwise actions?

I tend to agree with Aristotle that the wise man shows the right amount of anger in the right situations. The wise man, angered by someone, moderates his actions through the exercise of rationality and wisdom. There is no righteousness in foolish actions, no matter how justified the feelings of anger are.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[granpa]

Ever hear of unwise actions?

I tend to agree with Aristotle that the wise man shows the right amount of anger in the right situations. The wise man, angered by someone, moderates his actions through the exercise of rationality and wisdom. There is no righteousness in foolish actions, no matter how justified the feelings of anger are.


eudaimonia,

Mark

isnt that what i said?

doesnt 'righteous anger' imply moderation and the exercise of rationality and wisdom?

 

[The Nihilist]

ever heard of 'righteous anger'?

edit: anger doesnt have to be impulsive nor does it have to be hateful. if someone insults you why wouldnt you be angry?

My example should make it clear that's not what's at hand. Please try to focus on the discussion.

 

[granpa]

My example should make it clear that's not what's at hand. Please try to focus on the discussion.

no it did not make it clear. some people seem to think that all emotions are inherently irrational.

it is true that in some people intense emotions can overwhelm reason. but i dont think that is true of everyone. therefore i dont think it proves anything about emotions or reason.


the purpose of reason is to control not suppress emotion. there is a big difference.

 

[Eudaimonist]

isnt that what i said?

I think I've lost the train of this discussion.

doesnt 'righteous anger' imply moderation and the exercise of rationality and wisdom?

Not to me, but thank you for clarifying what you mean by that term. I think we are in agreement.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[granpa]

If you think reason and logic are the only worthy things, you're not living. I find fun more in the irrational than the rational side of life, and yes, fun is essential. Helps us relax a little, and reduces stress. Thus, the irrational is better than the rational at times.

i said: sounds like you are trying to rationalize being irrational.

What, do you think every human act should be dictated by reason? That's awfully Kantian

i said: one has to separate 'what' people do from 'why' they do it. 'what' a person does can sometimes be irrational if they have a rational reason 'why' they should do it.

Actually, I think if the have a rational reason for doing something, it is necessarily rational.

i said: oh really? then why do people act irrationally then?

I imagine it's because people sometimes follow their irrational tendencies, rather than their rational ones. For example, if you called my mom a [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth], rationally, I'd know I should just ignore you and get on with my life. I'd probably be overwhelmed by my passions, though, and sock you good.

am i to understand that you are now saying that people dont intentionally act irrationally but only do so when compelled by feelings that they cant control?



you have implied (actually you stated) that acting irrationally is a desirable thing. why is it desirable? why should a person want to act irrationally?
you already answered this question in your first post. i am simply pointing out that this contradicts your subsequent statement that for an action to be considered irrational there must be no reason for it to be done.

 

[Eudaimonist]

i asked 'why do people (intentionally) act irrationally'? am i to understand that your answer is that people dont intentionally act irrationally but only do so when compelled by feelings that they cant control?

How can one intentionally act irrationally? To have intention implies rational purpose. If you intend to act on certain feelings within certain limits, you are acting rationally, IMV.

My own view here is that irrationality implies that either one's rational self-control is overwhelmed by feelings, or that one has abandoned rational self-control altogether. I suppose one can do that intentionally, but anything after that is irrational, since it has no bounds.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[granpa]

How can one intentionally act irrationally? To have intention implies rational purpose. If you intend to act on certain feelings within certain limits, you are acting rationally, IMV.

My own view here is that irrationality implies that either one's rational self-control is overwhelmed by feelings, or that one has abandoned rational self-control altogether. I suppose one can do that intentionally, but anything after that is irrational, since it has no bounds.


eudaimonia,

Mark

thats my point.

i was speaking to RecoveringPhilosopher though.

 

[The Nihilist]

Granpa, you're all over the place. You see implications where there are none, and you do not respond to my arguments. I will not continue with this line of inquiry.

 

[misfitforfaith]

Actually i thought if you were to follow rationalism to its logical conclusion your only God would be man therefore you would be a Secular Humanist or Atheist. Voltaire and those that instigated the European enlightenment were of such a mindset and they tried to erase not just Christianity but religion per se off the face of the earth as Karl Marx also tried to do a little later but thats another post!.