What is the Messianic equivalent to the eucharist?

[Gxg (G²)]

..one had to eat the Passover lamb. There's one of many OT types to look at.

Ezekiel eating the scroll ( Ezekiel 3:1-3 ) and later with John doing the same ( Revelation 10:8-10 ( )being another to consider..as it concerns imagery used to illustrate DIvine points of connection - just as it is with the Eucharist when it comes to participating in the shed blood/body of the Messiah in remembrance..

Matthew 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

Matthew 26:25-27 /Matthew 26

Mark 14:22
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”
Mark 14:21-23

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
John 6:50-52

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
John 6:53-55
​

 

[ContraMundum]

There is a difference between literal and real. The point is that we must defend and uphold the Word of God. We must not define what has not been revealed by either allegorizing or by literalizing what has been revealed. Whatever the Lord says, we must take it and eat. The words are "take and eat" not "take and understand". The minute someone says "it's an allegory", they are re-defining the words.

The early Christians were way more faithful to the Word than modern American Christians (and I lump MJs in there) tend to give them credit for.

 

[stevenfrancis]

Isolate Eucharist to those who use it and for what meaning and purpose.. and if you participate in "eating His flesh/drinking His blood"... where did that myth come from? And with that question, you now enter into a theology that takes a person outside of scripture.

Do Messianic Jews acknowledge the gospels? All four of them? And all the letters of the Apostles? (I'm asking sincerely. I don't have a great deal of knowledge about this church. Please don't take this wrong.)

There is eucharistic (thanksgiving), and communion language associated with the body and blood of Christ in many places, but most notably in the last supper accounts in the synoptics, of course. But the strongest theological case was laid out by Jesus (Yeshua if you prefer), in the Gospel of John, Chapter 6. Pretty much the whole chapter. It builds to a crescendo with "if you do not eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life within you".

The frankness and clarity of this statement divided His own followers. Even to the point where he asked the 12, "Will you now leave me as well"?

It's a pretty big deal. At least in Catholic and Orthodox Christianity.

 

[visionary]

Do Messianic Jews acknowledge the gospels? All four of them? And all the letters of the Apostles? (I'm asking sincerely. I don't have a great deal of knowledge about this church. Please don't take this wrong.)

Yes we believe the letter of the Apostles and acknowledge the gospels... the difference is in the perspective.. we are looking at it all in the Hebrew setting. So Eucharist and communion are not terms we use. Passover and Seder are.

 

[Avodat]

Yes we believe the letter of the Apostles and acknowledge the gospels... the difference is in the perspective.. we are looking at it all in the Hebrew setting. So Eucharist and communion are not terms we use. Passover and Seder are.

You only acknowledge the Gospels, but believe the Apostles' letters?

 

[pat34lee]

The key word in your sentence is "seems". I've read arguments about this claim. The bottom line is, "common form does not prove that one practice mimics the other". There has been no demonstration of causality, in one direction or the other.

Of course... I also have to ask... "So what if one does borrow from the other for its forms?" What are you really trying to prove? Is this a case of grasping at any straw that will appear to diminish the rabbis?

It was forbidden to learn the ways that other people served their gods, and especially to incorporate their ways into worshipping YHWH. The church system did this to woo converts from the pagans. The Jews did it also. If the seder is a copy of the Roman feasts, then it is mixing set-apart religious practices with profane ones. If Yeshua resisted a small thing like hand washing, do you think he would condone, much less practice, a ceremony copied from pagan Romans?

What it is NOT missing from is the Gospel accounts, which clearly describe many of the elements that we today refer to as a "seder". And all practiced without any need to teach forms, or give commentary to readers. The seder elements were regarded as so obvious that they needed no comment.

There is nothing written about the last meal itself that proves it to be a Passover meal, much less a seder. It was special only in that it was his last chance to be with and teach his disciples before his death and resurrection. Another thing I found recently is in 1 Corinthians 11:23-25.

1 Corinthians 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
​

"Bread" in the above verses does not mean unleavened bread.

"Scholars" have a great tendency to shift dates to the latest possible extreme. Sometimes even with a disregard for what is "possible". Consider the many academics who will claim Daniel is post-exilic literature. While the written composition of the Mishneh was begun around the turn of the first century, the material in that core of the Talmud clearly comes from much earlier times, predating Yeshua by as much as 200-400 years.

Unbelieving scholars have a problem with Daniel because he was too precise in some of his prophecies. There were some traditions in place during and before Yeshua's time as evidenced by the NT. The vast majority of it though, is post temple period and up to the middle ages. I can't find the reference at the moment, but one site said there was evidence of earlier versions of the 4 questions asked on Passover. One form only had 2 and the other had a question about meat that is no longer asked. Even if there were some type of seder that the Pharisees followed in Yeshua's day, there is no way to prove that it in any way resembled what ended up in the talmud.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There is a difference between literal and real. The point is that we must defend and uphold the Word of God. We must not define what has not been revealed by either allegorizing or by literalizing what has been revealed. Whatever the Lord says, we must take it and eat. The words are "take and eat" not "take and understand". The minute someone says "it's an allegory", they are re-defining the words.

The early Christians were way more faithful to the Word than modern American Christians (and I lump MJs in there) tend to give them credit for.

Spot on - as it often seems that the early believers in how they operated gets ignored in favor for an ideology of belief that they never walked out and said all others had to see as the same. They had no problem accepting certain concepts and realizing that they didn't have to always make sense in order for them to have basis - no more than it'd be the case that one has to logically understand how God (who is bigger than the universe itself) brought himself down to the level of a human./took on flesh or how Mary was chosen to be the vessel through whom He'd send himself into the world....it all being deemed as "the Mystery of Godliness" ( 1 Timothy 3:15-16 ).

We accept those things the Lord told us to accept and understand the ways that we are connected to Him - in the same way that the priests were in Divine COnnection with the Lord in His prescence when it came to the Temple Era and the ways it sympolized so much and they connected with the Lord on multiple levels.

I like what one Jewish believer noted best on the issue, as seen here:

• Do This In Memory Of Me | The Groom's Family

• Guest Post: Words of Blessing | The Groom's Family

 

[visionary]

You only acknowledge the Gospels, but believe the Apostles' letters?

CLARIFICATION...Acknowledge and believe both... nice catch.

 

[Avodat]

CLARIFICATION...Acknowledge and believe both... nice catch.

Thank goodness for that - you had me worried then!

 

[visionary]

Do Messianic Jews acknowledge the gospels? All four of them? And all the letters of the Apostles? (I'm asking sincerely. I don't have a great deal of knowledge about this church. Please don't take this wrong.)

There is eucharistic (thanksgiving), and communion language associated with the body and blood of Christ in many places, but most notably in the last supper accounts in the synoptics, of course. But the strongest theological case was laid out by Jesus (Yeshua if you prefer), in the Gospel of John, Chapter 6. Pretty much the whole chapter. It builds to a crescendo with "if you do not eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life within you".

The frankness and clarity of this statement divided His own followers. Even to the point where he asked the 12, "Will you now leave me as well"?

It's a pretty big deal. At least in Catholic and Orthodox Christianity.

My Yeshua died on Passover not good friday... He is not a Easter sacrifice... work that out in the scriptures and you will see that..

 

[Avodat]

His birth, life and death, or when they actually happened, will not be the salvation of anyone. Lots of good people did many of the things Yeshua did. Some where miraculously born, others came back to life from being dead, others did fantastic miracles. The distinctive in Christianity and in Messianic Judaism is his resurrection - that he laid down his own life in order to take it back it for our salvation; no other religion or philosophy is based solely on that aspect. All the other prophecies he fulfilled and all his teaching would be as nought unless he rose from the Cross! It is that that makes him Messiah, not Passover or Easter or Christmas or Yom Kippur.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is the Messianic equivalent to the eucharist?

Just curious.

Just subscribing for now




.

 

[visionary]

His birth, life and death, or when they actually happened, will not be the salvation of anyone. Lots of good people did many of the things Yeshua did. Some where miraculously born, others came back to life from being dead, others did fantastic miracles. The distinctive in Christianity and in Messianic Judaism is his resurrection - that he laid down his own life in order to take it back it for our salvation; no other religion or philosophy is based solely on that aspect. All the other prophecies he fulfilled and all his teaching would be as nought unless he rose from the Cross! It is that that makes him Messiah, not Passover or Easter or Christmas or Yom Kippur.

He didn't rise from the cross... but the grave. And no.. all His life is very important, every word He spoke, every thing He did, even the when, where, and with whom.

 

[Avodat]

He didn't rise from the cross... but the grave. And no.. all His life is very important, every word He spoke, every thing He did, even the when, where, and with whom.

I didn't say it wasn't.

He wasn't in a grave - his body was in a cave. His resurrection process started from the time he was taken down from the Cross - a part of that process was to be interred in the cave.

 

[Alithis]

re the Op .. way back when it was posted

if by "the eucharist" you mean as it is presented by the RCC .. then id say there is no messianic equivalent .

if you mean communion as the Lord Jesus displayed and told us to do in remembrance of him ? then i would say see "the passover"

imo.

 

[Laureate]

Don't you just love the first six words of Matthew 26:26

"And as they were eating Yeshua..."

Makes you wonder, What would we do without, punctuation!?!?!?
Well, for starters, we would be one step closer towards the original text; yet if you think no punctuation makes reading a challenge, try removing the spaces from between the words, and decipher a single line of text, as challenging as it may seem, we would only be one More step closer towards the original text.

Personally, I 'eat' the Word of Elohym when I 'come' to the scriptures; and I 'drink' his blood when I 'believe' the word of the Kingdom.

John 6:32 ...Yeshua said unto them, Honestly, I am telling you the truth....my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 6:33 For the bread of Elohym is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world. 6:35 ...I am the bread of life: he that 'Comes to me' shall 'Never Hunger'; and he that 'Believes on me' shall 'Never Thirst'.

Notice how in this context, to 'Come' to him', corresponds to 'Eating his flesh', for we are no longer hungry once we have eaten, yet here, Yeshua says we will no longer be hungry if we Come to him, and likewise, to 'Believe on him' corresponds to 'Drinking his blood', for Yeshua says, we will no longer be thirsty if we Believe on him.

Hungry for the Spiritual Meat of the Toruth, and thirsty for the anointing of Ruach H'Kodesh.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Yeshua stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 7:38 He that Believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that Believe on him should receive: for Ruach H'Kodesh was not yet given; because that Yeshua was not yet glorified.)

So in one sense, Yeshua was referring to the 'Daily Bread', which he taught us to pray for, '...give us THIS DAY our daily bread...' Hebrews 3:7-13 Wherefore (as Ruach H'Kodesh says, THIS DAY if you will hear his voice, Harden not your heart....But exhort one another DAILY, while it is yet called THIS DAY; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 3:14 For we are made partakers of H'Meshiach, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Thus this 'Daily bread' pertains to the New Covenant...

Isaiah 55:1 Huu'ee!, every one that is thirsty, you should come to the waters, and whosoever has no money; you should Come buy and Eat; yea, Come buy Wine and milk without money and without price. 55:2 Why would you spend money for that which is not Bread? and your labour for that which satisfies not? Hearken diligently unto me, and you will Eat that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 55:3 Incline your ear, [Job 34:3 For the ear examines words, as the mouth tasteth meat.] and Come unto me: Hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an Everlasting Covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

So by these passages we know Yeshua (the Messenger of the New Covenant) was referring to the 'Word' as 'bread', and the 'Spirit' as 'water', this same bread he referred to as 'his flesh', and thus the 'living water/water of life' is his blood.

Yet there is a perspective that permits us to Eat his flesh, and Drink his blood in a literal sense, that is if we are willing to also perceive that, it was The Kingdom of Elohym speaking to us, and that we are to Come to the Kingdom, and eat and drink of it's fruit whose pulp is flesh indeed, and whose blood is (fruit juice) drink indeed.

Remember the Hebrew word for 'blood' דם is the same for 'juice', thus if it is the Kingdom that is saying eat my flesh and drink my blood, then the river of life, and the tree of life come to mind;

Psalms 90:1 YHWH, you hast been our habitation throughout every generation.


Matthew 12:28 ...if I cast out devils by the Spirit of Elohym, then the Kingdom of Elohym has come unto you.

"...the bread of Elohym is he which comes down from heaven..."

In Revelation 21:2-3 the holy city, new Jerusalem, Comes down from Elohym out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, at which time the tabernacle of Elohym shall be among men, he will also dwell in them.

Matthew 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we EAT? or, What shall we DRINK? or, how shall we be clothed? 6:33 But seek you first the Kingdom of Elohym, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

When Yeshua said, "If you have faith....you shall say unto this mountain be you cast into the sea...",

could He have been referring to Himself as that mountain being cast into the sea?

Did not Yeshua parallel himself with Yownah in the "Sign of Yownah", yet Yownah said, you must pick me up and cast me into the sea...

I Peter 2:3 If it be so, that you have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of Elohym, and precious... Isaiah 28:16 ...thus says YHWH Elohym, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believes shall not make haste. (Daniel 2:35) ...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain..., I Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner...

Now consider the following passages...

Isaiah 66:13 As one whom his Mother comforts, so will I comfort you; and you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem....how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a Hen [which is a Mother] gathers Her chickens under her wings, but you would not!

And so the Word of Elohym manifested in the flesh, and came to Jerusalem to Comfort Her inhabitants as if He were their Mother 'the Kingdom' itself.

I think the passage is wonderful to explore, and I know our Father takes pleasure in my delight of doing so.

Notwithstanding our squabbling over the doctrines of men, allows the most important theme of the message to go unnoticed, both 'Come', and 'Believe' pertains to a major part of the 'Eternal Salvation' that we have all been invited to part take of.

The scriptures say, 'the saints will judge'

Psalms 149:1 Praise you YHWH. Sing unto YHWH a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 149:6 Let the high praises of Elohym be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise you YHWH.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And just 'how', and 'why' did Yeshua say that the 'wicked and adulterous generation' of his first advent would be judged in the end?

Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise (resurrect) in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: [How?] because they repented at the preaching of Yownah; and, behold, a greater than Yownah is here.

Therefore it was the Righteousness of their Faith that will condemn that adulterous and wicked generation, for the men of Nineveh Believed the preaching of Yownah, and the wicked and adulterous generation did not.

12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up/resurrect in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: [How?] for she CAME from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Thus it was the Righteousness of the Queen to Come and See for herself, and the adulterous and wicked generation did not, that is how she will condemn that wicked and adulterous generation.

So you see it will be the righteousness of the saints faith that saves the saints, and it is the same righteousness and faith of the saints that will condemn the wicked and adulterous generation, and what will be the token of their faith and righteousness? When He Comes again preaching (as outlined in the sign of Yownah), and calls for his saints, that they both 'Come unto him, and Believe his preaching'.

John 6:33 For the bread of Elohym is he which comes down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 6:35 And Yeshua said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that Comes to me shall never hunger; and he that Believes on me shall never thirst.

6:37 All that the Father gives me shall Come to me; and whosoever comes to me I will in no wise cast out. 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me (Comes to me) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life:

So you see, in the third millennium/3rd day we are to expect the Son of man to rise from the heart of the earth, and preach, as Yownah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale and came out preaching, (Isaiah 52:15) So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths before him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

It is during this time that, He will gather the saints unto Himself.

Psalms 50:1 The mighty Author, even YHWH, has spoken, and has called (and therefore shall call) the inhabitants of the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. 50:3 Our Divine Author shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

When he says, '...a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.' He is referring to the daughter of Zion in Zechariah...

Zechariah 2:5 For I, says YHWH, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.

when he says, '...He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people...' He is referring to those who have left the earthly tabernacle and passed on (died)... (Deuteronomy 30:4) If any of you were driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will YHWH Eloheyk gather you, and from thence will he fetch you:

Thus, there is a resurrection, and a generation in which many past generations will rise together to be judged, and it will be imperative for those who intend to be saved, and attain unto eternal life, that they Come to him indeed, and indeed Believe his preaching on that day, yet it is the very same righteousness of their faith (i.e. the saints Coming to him, and Believing his report) that will Condemn those who do not Come to him, and Believe not his preaching.

John 3:18 Whosoever believes on him is not condemned: but whosoever believes not is condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of Elohym.

This is the significance I get from the scriptures as it pertains to Eating his flesh and Drinking his blood...

1) We Come to His word and Believe the report thereof, and our reward for such is receiving the gift(s) of Ruach H'Kodesh, which is removed from those who do not Come to His Word, and those who Come yet do not Believe His report, our reward includes being resurrected in the last day where...

2) We will Come unto the Kingdom where we will Eat from the tree of life, and Drink from the river of life, for We will recognize the pattern on His standard, and the sound of His trumpet, and...

3) We will have also Come to See Him, and Believe His preaching, then shall we receive Ruach H'Kodesh without measure, and be transformed, Eternal life! Here we Come.


So you see One third of Mankind represents the Righteous who will Come & Believe, another third represents the Wicked who will not Come, and the remaining third are Adulterous ones who will Come, but will not Believe, thus two thirds/666 will surrender their inheritance unto the One third representing the Righteous Saints.

John 6:36 Yet I say unto you, That you also have seen me, and believe not.

Which is to say, many have 'eaten his flesh/come unto him', yet refuse to 'drink his blood/believe on him'.

 

[Avodat]

Laureate, I'm sure your post is helpful but it is far too long. Many people, including me, do not bother to wade through long posts. Do bear in mind that should someone want to respond to it, their post will be much, much longer because of the need to quote all your text before writing anything themselves!

 

[Laureate]

Laureate, I'm sure your post is helpful but it is far too long. Many people, including me, do not bother to wade through long posts. Do bear in mind that should someone want to respond to it, their post will be much, much longer because of the need to quote all your text before writing anything themselves!

What??? That lil O post, I only quoted half the bible... :o

 

[Avodat]

What??? That lil O post, I only quoted half the bible... :o