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Our God has never lied to me about anything else, so why should i not believe it when He speaks of life eternal? God has more than "proven" Himself trustworthy to me--so for me His Word IS my Proof.You appear to be unwilling even to imagine that your life could end forever when you physically die.
I asked how would you feel right now if you knew that after you physically die there is nothing, it is the end of your life forever, you just cease to exist? It is a hypothetical question that asks you only to imagine that when you physically die it is the end of your life forever. Cant you bring yourself even to imagine it? Ive been trying to determine whether your God belief is in part the result of a fear of death, but it seems I already have my answer. You appear to be unwilling even to imagine that your life could end forever when you physically die.
That only goes to show that most people are credulous. Millions of people believe that Santa Claus exists, but that doesnt make it true. That you would think that an argument from popularity is a valid argument is another problem.It certainly jibes with the reality of millions--a vast majority over atheists throughout history, as i am sure you know.
Really? How many corporate laws are Biblically based? How many traffic laws are Biblically based? How many of the Ten Commandments form the basis for our laws? Laws against stealing and murder are pretty much universal in all cultures so you can hardly count them as being uniquely Biblical. How many of the other Commandments form the basis for our laws and why is there no Commandment against rape?You forget, that being a part of what once was a Judeo-Christian culture, our society's laws and mores are Biblically based.
Why not? Why are you unwilling to answer hypothetical questions?I'm sorry I don't answer hypothetical questions.
Why not? Why are you unwilling to answer hypothetical questions?
The fact that millions have experienced a close loving relationship with God has nothing to do with popularity or "the majority rules." It has to do with the fact that when people are humble enough to admit their need of God, He ALWAYS most eagerly "runs" to manifest Himself to them and initiates with them an eternal relationship in Love which no one can gainsay by comparing it to the silliness of Santa Claus.That only goes to show that most people are credulous. Millions of people believe that Santa Claus exists, but that doesn’t make it true. That you would think that an argument from popularity is a valid argument is another problem.
Our country was founded and organized by mostly theists, a few deists, and with ZERO atheists counted among the Founding Fathers. The legal foundations of our Country reflect these peoples' spiritual beliefs. As Calvin Coolidge--the thirteenth President of the United States observed: "The foundation of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country." Likewise, John Adams, the second president of the United States stated, "The highest story of the American Revolution is this: It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."Really? How many corporate laws are Biblically based? How many traffic laws are Biblically based? How many of the Ten Commandments form the basis for our laws? Laws against stealing and murder are pretty much universal in all cultures so you can hardly count them as being uniquely Biblical.
"If out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.How many of the other Commandments form the basis for our laws and why is there no Commandment against rape?
What a charming person you are.Atheists, on the other hand, in their willful blindness and extreme hubris, are both unwilling to admit their need and admit the fact that only God is capable of meeting that need. "Claiming to be wise, they instead become fools."(Romans 1:22)
Yes, but lacking credible, physical evidence for your Gods existence, you once again resort to an analogy for an argument and it is a poor analogy at that. You are comparing the physical phenomenon of a sunsetwhich is easily visible to anyone with functioning eyesto your invisible, undetectable, supernatural God. A better analogy would be nine people claiming to have seen a ghost and a tenth asking them to provide some credible, physical evidence that it exists. It is a case of people deluding themselves into thinking they see something that isnt there. Dispense with the analogies and provide some sound, objective evidence instead. If your God is as obvious as a sunset then where is it? There is plenty of sound, objective evidence to show that sunsets exist. How is it that in all of human history, no one has ever produced a single shred of sound, objective evidence to show that any gods have ever existed?If ten people are standing on a mountain, and 9 of them are watching and commenting on the gorgeous beauty of a sunset and the 10th keeps stating that he can't see it and has no idea what the other 9 are talking about, would the rational conclusion not be that the 10th is either blind or is wilfully keeping his eyes closed for reasons unknown?
How quaintly parochial. Do you think that the U.S. is the only country making up society? And, predictably, you evaded my questions. How many corporate laws are Biblically based? How many traffic laws are Biblically based? How many of the Ten Commandments form the basis for our laws? Laws against stealing and murder are pretty much universal in all cultures so you can hardly count them as being uniquely Biblical. Please indicate specifically which laws are uniquely Biblically based.Our country was founded and organized by mostly theists etc etc
Just how bad can this growing ungodliness be if atheists are in such small numbers? Around 92% of the entire U.S. population still believes in a God. Are you claiming that it is only atheists who rape, murder and steal? Or are you saying that Christians are so weak-willed that they can easily be led into moral turpitude by a handful of atheists?Given the extreme damage done to our Nation by a handful of rabid atheists with power far beyond that justified by their small numbers, by Supreme Courts Justices whose moral turpitude is exceeded only by the extent of their misuse of their power, and by the American Civil Liberties Union, whose morally destructive influence has permeated every facet of our society, coupled with the spiritual paralysis of much of our nation in the face of growing unGodliness, it is highly doubtful that much can or will be done to slow the downward slide our country has been experiencing for the past 50 years or so.
Wonderful. So if a man rapes an engaged virgin, he is to be put to death, but if she isnt engaged then she is forced to marry her rapist and can never seek a divorce. How delighted and grateful she must feel. Just one question though What about the case where she isnt a virgin? Does the Bible have nothing to say about raping married women or non-virgins? Oh wait, I think Ive found something"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver as a bride price. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."(Deuteronomy 22:25-29)
Yes, the Bible certainly teaches some charming moral lessons.Numbers 31:17-18 said:Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
You are too kind.In my opinion, it would be very much in your best interests to stop playing these silly little word games and begin a REAL search for the Truth instead of putting so much time and effort into winning meaningless points in endless fatuous debates.
Thank you! One does what one can.What a charming person you are.
You are too kind.
You certainly appear to be doing what you can to evade my questions.One does what one can.
Sadly, your questions have no answers which you are ready to accept at this point in time--even after going around in circles several times.You certainly appear to be doing what you can to evade my questions.
I will never be ready to accept bare assertions that have no sound evidence and no valid reasoning supporting them. The reason discussions appear to you to be going around in circles is because religious believers constantly evade the questions or return to belief without evidence as an answer, which I find worthless so I ask again in the vain hope of receiving a reasonable response. Sadly, as you say, very few such replies are forthcoming.Sadly, your questions have no answers which you are ready to accept at this point in time--even after going around in circles several times.
I will never be ready to accept bare assertions that have no sound evidence and no valid reasoning supporting them. The reason discussions appear to you to be going around in circles is because religious believers constantly evade the questions or return to belief without evidence as an answer, which I find worthless so I ask again in the vain hope of receiving a reasonable response. Sadly, as you say, very few such replies are forthcoming.
I know there are atheists who value human life. My point was that there is nothing in atheism itself that warrants them doing so. Atheists must borrow from worldviews that have some ethical dimension in order to justify their concern for human well-being. As far as I'm concerned, this is a tremendous flaw in the atheistic worldview.I really think that atheists have no fundamental reason to value human life. I think valuing all human life is inconsistent with naturalistic philosophy.Again you say atheists don’t value human life and you associate devaluing human life with Nazi atrocities. I’ve told you that I do value human life and why other atheists would also value human life, despite what you may think so please stop the ridiculous Nazi references and stop saying that atheists don’t value human life.
I'm afraid your simply saying my point is irrelevant doesn't make it so. Empathy as a basis for valuing others is, for the reason I gave, weak. That you would be satisfied with such a fragile foundation for valuing others, and that it must be borrowed from some other philosophical worldview, speaks volumes about the deficient nature of your athiesm.Nonetheless, in light of what I've just noted, mere empathy hardly seems a good basis by which to determine the value of others.Whether it seems that way to you or not is irrelevant. Atheists such as myself do value human life so will you please stop implying that we don’t.
I would, obviously, have a different basis for valuing human life; one that would be, as yours is, weaker and easily subjectified.I, for one, am absolutely sure there is an "external arbiter of human value." Whether you recognize it or not, you daily benefit from the lack of agreement with your beliefs.I’m an atheist and I value human life without the need for some arbiter external to humanity. You claim that there is such an arbiter, which raises an obvious question. Would you, personally, still value human life if it turned out that your supposed arbiter was imaginary? Do you, personally, actually need to believe there is an external arbiter for you to place a value on human life?
Well, you are certainly right about one thing: pure atheism is completely unethical. You aren't exactly correct, however, about the promises atheism makes (or, rather, doesn't make). It does "promise" that there is no God and from this tumble a number of other "promises": there is no judgment, no hell, no life after death whatsoever.Your atheistic viewpoint offers nothing to someone born into destitution, disease and death, not because it doesn't make hollow promises, but because it has nothing to offer! I would contend that if you offer aid to those who are in such desperate straits that it is inconsistent with the naturalistic underpinnings of your atheism.Yes, because atheism isn’t an ethical viewpoint. It is just a lack of belief in gods. That’s all it is. The ethical viewpoints of atheists are separate from their atheism and are varied; for example, secular humanism or Buddhism. Offering aid to people has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism makes no promises to people. Religions, on the other hand, do make promises to people, many of which are not kept and some cannot be verified as even being possible to keep.
And the relatively affluent, self-satisfied, and comfortable often dabble in philosophical ideas that are empty, hopeless, and ultimately destructive.Very often desperation and hardship presses people to God rather than away.Yes, I’m sure it does. Desperate people will often clutch at anything that offers a glimmer of hope no matter how implausible, unjustified and ultimately worthless it may be.
Secular doesn't necessarily mean atheistic. I think its very telling that you've offered this organization as evidence of atheism's charitable work. I don't think it is mere coincidence that it was a Christian, not an atheist, who founded this charitable organization.Are you suggesting that Christians only offer "empty promises of life after death"? I sure hope not because some of the largest humanitarian aid organizations in the world have Christian origins. In addition, many thousands of smaller charitable aid organizations have been started by local churches all over Canada and America. I wonder how atheists as a group compare in their charitable endeavours? Just as a guess, I would say not very well.There is no substance to the promise of eternal life. By far the largest aid organisation is the Red Cross with 97 million volunteers worldwide, which, while its founder may have been a Christian, is a secular organisation and has been since its inception.
But you see I have found Him to be as good as His word in regard to many of His other promises, so I have strong confidence in this the greatest of His promises. I have a 30 year history of walking with God as evidence upon which to rest my faith in His promise of what comes after the death of my body.Its the one promise of God I can't avoid testing even if I wanted to.But the problem is you haven’t tested it, have you? No one has ever provided any sound, tested evidence that this promise is true. You just assume it without evidence.
I notice that you omitted my qualifiers. Certainly, religious believers attempt to provide evidence and reasoning for why they believe what they do, but usually the evidence is not sound and the reasoning is not valid. If you think you can use sound evidence and valid reasoning to demonstrate that your God exists then please do so. Did you use sound evidence and valid reasoning to convince yourself that your God exists? If so then just tell me what that sound evidence was and show me your valid reasoning. Or is it that you used unsound evidence and invalid reasoning to convince yourself that your God exists?I know only too well from your old GA activity that you are well aware that both reason and evidence can be provided,
I notice that you omitted my qualifiers. Certainly, religious believers attempt to provide evidence and reasoning for why they believe what they do, but usually the evidence is not sound and the reasoning is not valid. If you think you can use sound evidence and valid reasoning to demonstrate that your God exists then please do so. Did you use sound evidence and valid reasoning to convince yourself that your God exists? If so then just tell me what that sound evidence was and show me your valid reasoning. Or is it that you used unsound evidence and invalid reasoning to convince yourself that your God exists?
On the contrary, I certainly will accept sound evidence and valid reasoning. The problem is that religious believers disregard the words sound and valid when answering my questions. Did you notice how NewToLife just omitted those qualifiers when responding? And while you use those words, you apparently disregard their meanings when you offer the Bible and perceived miracles as sound evidence. In the context of my questions, when I say sound, I mean free from error, fallacy or misapprehension and when I say valid, I mean well-grounded, justifiable and logically correct.Problem is you won't accept valid reasoning and sound evidence. All we have are our lives and the Bible and the miracles we may have seen with our own eyes. These aren't good enough for you and you continue to pass them off or cry don't using a "logical" rebuttal as to why its not acceptable.
No, Im not looking for a fight. What you perceive as fighting or contention is the result of one simple principle of mine. I will not accept baseless assertions that are not supported by sound evidence and valid reasoning. Unfortunately, the bulk of the responses I receive are just that so I am constantly forced to ask again. Ask yourself; would you accept answers that were riddled with errors, fallacies and misapprehensions? Would you accept answers that were ill-grounded, unjustifiable and logically incorrect? Who would accept such answers and base their beliefs on them?Why are you fighting to begin with? Are you looking for a fight? No one is going to change just because you dismiss our evidence.
Thats a good question. Im here to explore the way religious believers think, which in the case of this particular site is predominantly Christians. I find it fascinating that people who would not accept answers based on unsound evidence and invalid reasoning in other aspects of their lives will readily accept such answers when it comes to their God belief. Im trying to see how far that acceptance extends and Im trying to discover why people accept such things. I ask questions to probe the boundaries of this unsupported belief and the underlying cause for abandoning valid reasoning. It appears to me that, at a certain point based on a persons natural levels of insecurity and credulity, emotions such as hope and fear will override reason and rationality. I seem to be on the low end of that spectrum and Im interested in learning about why the majority of people think differently. Again, I find it fascinating to try to learn how people think.Why are you ultimately here? Clearly neither side is changing and you easily are shoving off any conclusions. You have closed out any responses from the beginning of this thread, so after following this thread for a while and responding, its becoming frustrating because it seems you're only here to argue.
Think of it as helping me to further my education.If that's the case we waste our time. You will only see your side and qualify what you deem worthy of being qualified and we will continue to beat the dead horse with you.
No, when there is no sound evidence supporting an assertion, there is no need to justify a lack of belief in that assertion, but I am interested in how you justify your belief in such circumstances.Or does dismissing all this make you feel better and justified in your beliefs or lack thereof? If this is the case...
There is no such thing as "belief without evidence" in Christianity. Were Christianity really founded on this type a shaky foundation, it would have died out several thousand years ago--or more likely been still-born. Had the Disciples, for example, never really seen their risen Lord on Pascha morning, they would never have been heard of again--let alone accepted martyrdom in order to spread the Good News of the Resurrection.I will never be ready to accept bare assertions that have no sound evidence and no valid reasoning supporting them. The reason discussions appear to you to be going around in circles is because religious believers constantly evade the questions or return to belief without evidence as an answer, which I find worthless so I ask again in the vain hope of receiving a reasonable response. Sadly, as you say, very few such replies are forthcoming.
The problem here, and this is the last time Im going to bother saying this, is that atheism is not an ethical viewpoint, but you are trying to present it as such. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in Gods, nothing more and nothing less. You may as well start attacking a lack of belief in ghosts for not providing a reason to value human life. You are attacking a straw man. The reasons why people who lack a belief in gods value human life are many and varied and are independent of their lack of belief in gods in the same way they are independent of a lack of belief in ghosts.I know there are atheists who value human life. My point was that there is nothing in atheism itself that warrants them doing so.
You didnt answer my questions. Would you still value human life if it turned out that your God is imaginary? Do you actually need to believe in your God for you to place a value on human life? Even without a god belief, my value for human life is strong enough that I dont feel the urge to murder, rape, steal or commit many other immoral or unethical acts. Would your value for human life be less than mine if you didnt have your God belief?aiki said:I would, obviously, have a different basis for valuing human life; one that would be, as yours is, weaker and easily subjectified.3sigma said:Would you, personally, still value human life if it turned out that your supposed arbiter was imaginary? Do you, personally, actually need to believe there is an external arbiter for you to place a value on human life?
So your answer would be no then, wouldnt it? You havent actually tested the promise of life after death, have you? And no one else has ever provided any sound, tested evidence that it is true, have they?aiki said:But you see I have found Him to be as good as His word in regard to many of His other promises, so I have strong confidence in this the greatest of His promises. I have a 30 year history of walking with God as evidence upon which to rest my faith in His promise of what comes after the death of my body.3sigma said:But the problem is you havent tested it, have you? No one has ever provided any sound, tested evidence that this promise is true. You just assume it without evidence.
Why do you keep saying this when it is obvious that people will believe all sorts of unsupported nonsense and have done for millennia? Astrology originated more than 2,000 years ago and it hasnt died out yet, despite the fact that there is no sound evidence supporting it. I think the popularity and longevity of a belief is directly proportional to the amount of hope it offers to the believer. It seems that when the insecure and credulous are offered enough hope, they become willing to accept almost anything as evidence to support their belief no matter how worthless it may be. What could offer more hope than a religion that promises eternal life?There is no such thing as "belief without evidence" in Christianity. Were Christianity really founded on this type a shaky foundation, it would have died out several thousand years ago--or more likely been still-born.
No, the missing ingredients are sound evidence and valid reasoning supporting your belief. If you think you can provide me some then please do. And please dont disregard the meanings of the words sound and valid.For atheists, the missing ingredient in their alleged "search for God" is their lack of hunger and thirst after righteousness--a desperate need, bereft of all smugness, hubris, and self-satisfaction.
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