What is the meaning of your life?

[3sigma]

Well, that sounds good, but in point of fact you have stacked the deck--through your "rules of evidence: i.e., photographs or lab samples required, as it were--in such a way that evidence which you would be willing to accept as such is impossible to obtain, given we are dealing with spiritual realities and not material realities.

All I ever ask for is the truth: real things, events and facts. The term “spiritual realities” is an oxymoron. There is nothing real about the spiritual.

real – occurring or existing in actuality
actual – existing in act and not merely potentially: existing in fact or reality
spiritual – of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena
supernatural – of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially: of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
imagination – the act or power of forming a mental image of something not present to the senses or never before wholly perceived in reality

…THEY HAVE TO BE PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED TO BE VALIDATED--spiritual objective realities only becoming real subjectively.

There is no such thing as “spiritual objective realities”. It is another oxymoron. When something is beyond the visible observable universe then, by definition, it cannot be present to the senses and cannot be perceived in reality. So when you say you experience such things and that they are subjectively real, what you are really saying is that they exist only within your imagination.

So, if you are really looking for the "truth," why are you asking the same questions over and over, receiving the same answers--which you disallow on grounds that they can't be "proven"--over and over--and then avowing all the while that you are a seeker of "truth," in spite of your redundant refusal to accept it.

Because the answers I receive, over and over, are not the truth. They aren’t real things, events and facts. The answers I receive are descriptions of things that are imaginary.

…but you can never erase your knowledge that He exists--which would be a requirement for returning to atheism.

Yet millions of children who believed with all their heart that Santa Claus really exists do eventually outgrow that childish belief. They don’t erase the knowledge of Santa Claus; they just come to the realisation that he is imaginary.

 

[ephraimanesti]

All I ever ask for is the truth: real things, events and facts. The term “spiritual realities” is an oxymoron. There is nothing real about the spiritual.

"But there are no such things as sunsets," whined the blind man, "or I would see them."

There is no such thing as “spiritual objective realities”. It is another oxymoron. When something is beyond the visible observable universe then, by definition, it cannot be present to the senses and cannot be perceived in reality. So when you say you experience such things and that they are subjectively real, what you are really saying is that they exist only within your imagination.

"There is no such thing as music," averred the deaf man, "or I would hear it."

Because the answers I receive, over and over, are not the truth. They aren’t real things, events and facts. The answers I receive are descriptions of things that are imaginary.

Granted that through having a mind closed to spiritual realities and a heart hardened against the existence of God, you have willfully disabled yourself to the point of being unwilling/unable to perceive spiritual Truths, why do you continue going through the motions of asking questions regarding spiritual matters, knowing the answers you will receive ahead of time--having played this game for awhile now--and having, through pre-judgment, held any answers you might receive to be unacceptable time after time after time after time, etc., etc., etc., why do you continue the charade--pretending to be a seeker after truth when, in your estimation, there is no Truth in the location in which you are supposedly searching? Given that you well know the answers before you ask the questions--what are you REALLY seeking: ego satisfaction, feelings of superiority, ideas to smirk at, a bolstering of your own shakey non-belief system, what?

Yet millions of children who believed with all their heart that Santa Claus really exists do eventually outgrow that childish belief. They don’t erase the knowledge of Santa Claus; they just come to the realisation that he is imaginary.

Good example! The same process happens with atheists who convert to Christianity--they realize that they are not "god" after all, they come to an understanding that Darwin et al's findings have been misunderstood and misapplied in the vain attempt to "prove" the non-existence of our Creator God, that they are human beings after all and not evolved animals, and they come to the realization that atheism is an untenable position to hold in the face of reality and that they would be able to LIVE instead of just existing if they hooked up with God and began to LIVE as they were created to LIVE--as God's beloved children.

Because this wonderful process has perhaps not begun for you personally, it is not a sign that the process is not real or that the goal does not exist. It only indicates that some are slower learners than others.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[[serious]]

meaning of my life? Live as best I can, uncover the truth as near as I can, and live without regret.

 

[3sigma]

"But there are no such things as sunsets," whined the blind man, "or I would see them."
"There is no such thing as music," averred the deaf man, "or I would hear it."

I see and hear perfectly well, but I cannot physically see or hear your God and, when it comes right down to it, neither can you. When you speak of seeing and hearing your God, you are using metaphors for imagining your God. When you speak of it dwelling in your heart or having a relationship with it, you are using metaphors for having an emotional attachment to an unsupported belief that would be too painful to relinquish.

Granted that through having a mind closed to spiritual realities and a heart hardened against the existence of God, you have willfully disabled yourself to the point of being unwilling/unable to perceive spiritual Truths, why do you continue going through the motions of asking questions regarding spiritual matters, knowing the answers you will receive ahead of time

What you refer to as a closed mind is simply a healthy scepticism and when you say I have hardened my heart, it means I use reason rather than emotion to come to conclusions. My inability to perceive “spiritual Truths” is due to a lack of credulity.

I’ve explained before in this thread why I continue to ask questions. I’m fascinated by how religious believers think. I wish to plumb the depths of Christian belief. It constantly amazes me how religious believers can convince themselves that their beliefs are true and maintain those beliefs in the face of a complete lack of sound evidence. I continue to ask questions because the respondents vary in their behaviour. I am still surprised by the lengths to which some people will go to evade my questions or to deny reality. It’s endlessly fascinating.

The same process happens with atheists who convert to Christianity--they realize that they are not "god" after all, they come to an understanding that Darwin et al's findings have been misunderstood and misapplied in the vain attempt to "prove" the non-existence of our Creator God…

And here we have a good example of the sort of fantasies that religious believers will construct and how they can simply deny reality.

Because this wonderful process has perhaps not begun for you personally, it is not a sign that the process is not real or that the goal does not exist. It only indicates that some are slower learners than others.

No, it indicates that some people are less credulous than others.

 

[3sigma]

meaning of my life? Live as best I can, uncover the truth as near as I can, and live without regret.

Good for you. I guess you can do those things without a God belief so you are probably not a Christian who would say that your life has no meaning without your God?

 

[ephraimanesti]

I see and hear perfectly well, but I cannot physically see or hear your God and, when it comes right down to it, neither can you. When you speak of seeing and hearing your God, you are using metaphors for imagining your God. When you speak of it dwelling in your heart or having a relationship with it, you are using metaphors for having an emotional attachment to an unsupported belief that would be too painful to relinquish.

Actually, my brother, i think the Scriptural explanation for your plight is much closer to the truth then the one you put forward,

"Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."(Matthew 13:14-15)

There is nothing "metaphorical" about a Christian's relationship with God: as promised (John 16:5-15) the Holy Spirit has been sent, dwells in the hearts of all believers, and speaks God's words to us--LOUD AND CLEAR. This has been going on for 2000 years and has been experienced by millions. The fact that you have not seen God or heard His voice speaks to your state of intransigence as spelled out in the quote from Matthew above, not to any lack of existence or communication on God's part.

It is for this reason the the burden of proof is on atheists, not on Christians. Disprove God's existence if you can! Just because your radio is turned off doesn't mean the Station is not broadcasting and its signal being received by many all around you.

What you refer to as a closed mind is simply a healthy scepticism and when you say I have hardened my heart, it means I use reason rather than emotion to come to conclusions. My inability to perceive “spiritual Truths” is due to a lack of credulity.

No, it is due to the faulty programming of the Computer which controls your so-called "reasoning"--programming which will only accept data which supports your already arrived-at conclusion that there is no God--called "the garbage in-garbage out syndrome."

It is a neat little mental trick to rule out the admissibility of any evidence contrary to ones false belief system; unfortunately, it is likewise a deadly trap. Notice how close the word "sceptic" is to "septic."

I’ve explained before in this thread why I continue to ask questions. I’m fascinated by how religious believers think. I wish to plumb the depths of Christian belief. It constantly amazes me how religious believers can convince themselves that their beliefs are true and maintain those beliefs in the face of a complete lack of sound evidence. I continue to ask questions because the respondents vary in their behaviour. I am still surprised by the lengths to which some people will go to evade my questions or to deny reality. It’s endlessly fascinating.

In other words, you are here asking redundant questions over and over again for the same reason that people lacking lives of their own watch "reality shows" hour after hour on T.V., living vicariously off the experiences of others. Fascinating indeed!

And here we have a good example of the sort of fantasies that religious believers will construct and how they can simply deny reality.

Given that God has created all that comprises reality, Christians do everything possible to affirm reality--in all its God-given glory and grandeur. In this process of affirmation it is also necessary to discard all that seeks to debunk that which God has done--for example the belief system which holds that everything is the result of a "cosmic accident" and is thus "without meaning or purpose".

No, it indicates that some people are less credulous than others.

If you are honest, you must admit that it takes much more faith to believe in the "cosmic accident" scenario than the Intelligent Design paradigm. It would appear to me that of the two, atheists are much more credulous than Christians.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[[serious]]

Good for you. I guess you can do those things without a God belief so you are probably not a Christian who would say that your life has no meaning without your God?

That is correct. My life would have the meaning I gave to it regardless of my views on God.

 

[3sigma]

There is nothing "metaphorical" about a Christian's relationship with God: as promised (John 16:5-15) the Holy Spirit has been sent, dwells in the hearts of all believers, and speaks God's words to us--LOUD AND CLEAR. This has been going on for 2000 years and has been experienced by millions. The fact that you have not seen God or heard His voice speaks to your state of intransigence as spelled out in the quote from Matthew above, not to any lack of existence or communication on God's part.

Have you ever physically heard your actual God with your own ears—yes or no? Please answer that question. If your answer is “no” then you are speaking metaphorically when you say it speaks to you loud and clear. If you say that your God speaks to you through scripture or by some other inaudible means then you are again speaking metaphorically when you say your God speaks to you. What you really mean is that you imagine your God is speaking to you. It is purely your imagination.

It is for this reason the the burden of proof is on atheists, not on Christians. Disprove God's existence if you can! Just because your radio is turned off doesn't mean the Station is not broadcasting and its signal being received by many all around you.

Nonsense. The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim that something exists. If an inability to disprove the existence of something meant that it existed then my inability to disprove the existence of Santa Claus, ghosts, fairies or any other gods would mean that they also exist. Do you believe that all of those things exist as well? If your argument were sound, it would mean that everything that is imaginary actually exists. It’s ridiculous. You see; this is yet another example of the fallacies religious believers employ to convince themselves that their belief is true.

And please stop using analogies as arguments. They are worthless as evidence. If your God actually exists then there should be sound evidence supporting that particular claim. Until you produce it, your belief that your God exists is necessarily based on nothing more than your imagination.

No, it is due to the faulty programming of the Computer which controls your so-called "reasoning"--programming which will only accept data which supports your already arrived-at conclusion that there is no God--called "the garbage in-garbage out syndrome."

In a sense, you are right. When I hear garbage, I dismiss it—unlike you, it seems. I don’t believe things that are supported by nothing but errors, fallacies, misapprehensions and misrepresentations. How about you? Please show me the sound evidence and valid reasoning that you used to come to the conclusion that your God exists. I’m guessing that you will ignore or evade that request.

Notice how close the word "sceptic" is to "septic."

Is this sort of argument a good indicator of your intellect?

In other words, you are here asking redundant questions over and over again for the same reason that people lacking lives of their own watch "reality shows" hour after hour on T.V., living vicariously off the experiences of others. Fascinating indeed!

It would seem that you are equating yourself to the sort of contestant one sees on reality shows. Is that really the image you want to present?

Given that God has created all that comprises reality, Christians do everything possible to affirm reality--in all its God-given glory and grandeur. In this process of affirmation it is also necessary to discard all that seeks to debunk that which God has done--for example the belief system which holds that everything is the result of a "cosmic accident" and is thus "without meaning or purpose".

You begin with a baseless assertion then say that you must discard anything that disagrees with that assertion, particularly if it causes you emotional distress. Do you really think that is the best way to reach a valid conclusion?

If you are honest, you must admit that it takes much more faith to believe in the "cosmic accident" scenario than the Intelligent Design paradigm. It would appear to me that of the two, atheists are much more credulous than Christians.

I am quite honest so I see no reason why I should admit to a false claim. Credulous means ready to believe, especially on slight or uncertain evidence. As an atheist, I don’t believe that your God exists. Do you have substantial and certain evidence that it does exist? If so then please produce it so that I may also believe. If not then who is more credulous?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Have you ever physically heard your actual God with your own ears—yes or no? Please answer that question. If your answer is “no” then you are speaking metaphorically when you say it speaks to you loud and clear. If you say that your God speaks to you through scripture or by some other inaudible means then you are again speaking metaphorically when you say your God speaks to you. What you really mean is that you imagine your God is speaking to you. It is purely your imagination. Nonsense. The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim that something exists. If an inability to disprove the existence of something meant that it existed then my inability to disprove the existence of Santa Claus, ghosts, fairies or any other gods would mean that they also exist. Do you believe that all of those things exist as well? If your argument were sound, it would mean that everything that is imaginary actually exists. It’s ridiculous. You see; this is yet another example of the fallacies religious believers employ to convince themselves that their belief is true. And please stop using analogies as arguments. They are worthless as evidence. If your God actually exists then there should be sound evidence supporting that particular claim. Until you produce it, your belief that your God exists is necessarily based on nothing more than your imagination. In a sense, you are right. When I hear garbage, I dismiss it—unlike you, it seems. I don’t believe things that are supported by nothing but errors, fallacies, misapprehensions and misrepresentations. How about you? Please show me the sound evidence and valid reasoning that you used to come to the conclusion that your God exists. I’m guessing that you will ignore or evade that request. Is this sort of argument a good indicator of your intellect? It would seem that you are equating yourself to the sort of contestant one sees on reality shows. Is that really the image you want to present?You begin with a baseless assertion then say that you must discard anything that disagrees with that assertion, particularly if it causes you emotional distress. Do you really think that is the best way to reach a valid conclusion? I am quite honest so I see no reason why I should admit to a false claim. Credulous means ready to believe, especially on slight or uncertain evidence. As an atheist, I don’t believe that your God exists. Do you have substantial and certain evidence that it does exist? If so then please produce it so that I may also believe. If not then who is more credulous?

PEACE TO YOU,
ephraim

 

[XChristian]

None, as of yet.