What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

[dms1972]

Total Depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism)

I've heard Calvinists like RC Sproul and say "Total Depravity" can be misunderstood, and a better term might be "Total Inability".

What is the biblical basis for Total Depravity or Total inability.

And what can a person do before they become a christian.

 

[Tom8907]

We are corrupted by original sin, we cannot choose Christ of our own free will.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Total Depravity

I did a search on it, apparently it's the name of a song and an album.

Must've been a lot of trauma associated with the term.

 

[Dan Perez]

I did a search on it, apparently it's the name of a song and an album.

Must've been a lot of trauma associated with the term.

And here is. the best verse in JER 17:9

# 1 THE HEART //. LEB. , is a DEFINTE ARTICLE , in. the SINGULAR is. an ABSOLUTE

# 2 IS DECEITFUL //. AQOB. is a SINGULER. ABSOLUTE

# 3 ABOVE ALL // KOL. is a PREPOSTION an a SINGULAR ABOSOLUTE

# 4 AND DESPERATEL WICKED , in the SIGNULAR is a ASOLUTE

# 5. WHO // MI. is a PARTICLE INTERROGATIVE

# 6 CAN KNOW IT // YADA. , in. the IMPERFECT TENSE , in. the SINGULAR

dan p

 

[d taylor]

-
​

It is a human construct of Calvinism. That basically states a person is a dead body and can not on their own believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. God must first make that person alive, by making the person born again and then they can believe in Jesus.

So they say a person is born again and then believes.

I do not believe in the Calvinist theology at all. i believe even though a sinner, God has given every person the ability to exercise belief and that God does not give a person a special belief so a person can believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

That is the reason for The Bible, so as to witness to fallen man. That God's free gift of Eternal life is received by belief in Jesus.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

And here is. the best verse in JER 17:9

# 1 THE HEART //. LEB. , is a DEFINTE ARTICLE , in. the SINGULAR is. an ABSOLUTE

# 2 IS DECEITFUL //. AQOB. is a SINGULER. ABSOLUTE

# 3 ABOVE ALL // KOL. is a PREPOSTION an a SINGULAR ABOSOLUTE

# 4 AND DESPERATEL WICKED , in the SIGNULAR is a ASOLUTE

# 5. WHO // MI. is a PARTICLE INTERROGATIVE

# 6 CAN KNOW IT // YADA. , in. the IMPERFECT TENSE , in. the SINGULAR

dan p

Well, if that's what you think of yourself.

 

[Fervent]

Total depravity is an understanding of original sin which proponents of it claim the image of God was destroyed in the fall, so the only way someone might be saved is if God does all the work of saving them including making the decision to follow Him. According to Calvinists, we are incapable even of surrender in the face of the gospel message and so must first be regenerated in order to accept Christ. It's mostly proof texted from Romans 3:11, Romans 5, and Isaiah 64:6.

 

[Dan Perez]

Well, if that's what you think of yourself.

And what does that mean as I . presented exactly what that verse said to all. with all. the English words. and its Greek words

and all will. see that L did not ADD. or SUBTRACT. from that verse !!

dan p

 

[Gregory Thompson]

And what does that mean as I . presented exactly what that verse said to all. with all. the English words. and its Greek words

and all will. see that L did not ADD. or SUBTRACT. from that verse !!

dan p

If adding and subtraction does not work, try multiplication.

 

[Dan Perez]

If adding and subtraction does not work, try multiplication.

And you make me AGOG. good for you. you. !!

dan p

 

[NotreDame]

Total Depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism)

I've heard Calvinists like RC Sproul and say "Total Depravity" can be misunderstood, and a better term might be "Total Inability".

What is the biblical basis for Total Depravity or Total inability.

And what can a person do before they become a christian.

Total Inability to “come to Jesus” by their own free will.

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up the last day.”

So, no one is free to decide to “come to Jesus.”

Everyone must be made “able to come to Jesus” by the “drawing” of the Father.

However, the “drawing” of the Father only makes everyone draw “able to come” and the word “able” inherently includes an ability to “come” and an ability to refrain from “come to.”

 

[NotreDame]

And here is. the best verse in JER 17:9

# 1 THE HEART //. LEB. , is a DEFINTE ARTICLE , in. the SINGULAR is. an ABSOLUTE

# 2 IS DECEITFUL //. AQOB. is a SINGULER. ABSOLUTE

# 3 ABOVE ALL // KOL. is a PREPOSTION an a SINGULAR ABOSOLUTE

# 4 AND DESPERATEL WICKED , in the SIGNULAR is a ASOLUTE

# 5. WHO // MI. is a PARTICLE INTERROGATIVE

# 6 CAN KNOW IT // YADA. , in. the IMPERFECT TENSE , in. the SINGULAR

dan p

Edifying but doesn’t unequivocally demonstrate an inability to come to Jesus. Every sinner that comes to Jesus has such a heart.

To establish “inability” ineluctably from the Bible demands a verse that states an inability exists.

John 6:44 does so. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up the last day.”

No ability to come to Jesus unless and until the Father draws.

The Father “draws” then an ability to come to Jesus manifests with the person, people, anyone, everyone, drawn by the Father.

The “ability“ to come to Jesus by the act of being “drawn” necessarily includes the ability to refrain from “coming to Jesus.”

 

[dms1972]

Can the drawing be over a period of time.

What does it mean "to come to Jesus"

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Total Depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism)

I've heard Calvinists like RC Sproul and say "Total Depravity" can be misunderstood, and a better term might be "Total Inability".

What is the biblical basis for Total Depravity or Total inability.

And what can a person do before they become a christian.

Total depravity is basically no free will. So one must first determine if God gave us the will to choose Him freely or if He completely blocked our ability to do so. If one believes we have free will then TULIP falls apart. There is no need to continue down that path. However, if one believes that we have no free will then they will have to continually struggle with doubt because its logical conclusion leads one to believe that faith is simply pre- destined, stripping the act of believing of any personal merit, sincerity, or true, willful surrender.
Choose wisely.

Be blessed.

 

[Hentenza]

Total depravity comes from several Bible verses. I’ll post the first set to get the discussion going.

“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written: “There is no righteous person, not even one; There is no one who understands, There is no one who seeks out God; They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, There is not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving,” “The venom of asps is under their lips”; “Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”; “Their feet are swift to shed blood, Destruction and misery are in their paths, And they have not known the way of peace.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 3:9-18 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written: “THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NO ONE | New American Standard Bible - NAS

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written: “THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NO ONE

bible.com

Thoughts?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Total depravity comes from several Bible verses. I’ll post the first set to get the discussion going.

“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written: “There is no righteous person, not even one; There is no one who understands, There is no one who seeks out God; They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, There is not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving,” “The venom of asps is under their lips”; “Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”; “Their feet are swift to shed blood, Destruction and misery are in their paths, And they have not known the way of peace.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 3:9-18 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written: “THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NO ONE | New American Standard Bible - NAS

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written: “THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NO ONE

bible.com

Thoughts?

Where does it say we have " no free will"?

 

[Hentenza]

Where does it say we have " no free will"?

I only posted verses for discussion with regards to total depravity. I have made no arguments for or against “free will”.

What do you think of the verses that I posted? How do you interpret them?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I only posted verses for discussion with regards to total depravity. I have made no arguments for or against “free will”.

What do you think of the verses that I posted? How do you interpret them?

These are my thoughts....

Well context first, the subject of circumcision and whether or not Jews have an edge over the Gentiles. We must read the entire chapter to understand the verse you have pointed out. Also we certainly must consider the hyperbolic language Paul is using to make his point. This could be used to misconstrue his message If we read just his first few lines of his letter....

What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.

....we can begin to understand that even Paul teaches that the Jews had a choice on whether to believe or not to believe and that what ever choice one makes it has no effect on God's faithfulness.

Pretty clear that the concept of depravity is illusory. Additionally, what follows with TULIP is the concept that regeneration proceeds salvation in other words , one is filled with His Holy Spirit first in order to repent into belief.

Very strange to me.

 

[Hentenza]

These are my thoughts....

Well context first, the subject of circumcision and whether or not Jews have an edge over the Gentiles. We must read the entire chapter to understand the verse you have pointed out. Also we certainly must consider the hyperbolic language Paul is using to make his point. This could be used to misconstrue his message If we read just his first few lines of his letter....

What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.

....we can begin to understand that even Paul teaches that the Jews had a choice on whether to believe or not to believe and that what ever choice one makes it has no effect on God's faithfulness.

Pretty clear that the concept of depravity is illusory. Additionally, what follows with TULIP is the concept that regeneration proceeds salvation in other words , one is filled with His Holy Spirit first in order to repent into belief.

Very strange to me.

Ok so your observation rests on these verses only representing the Jews. If that is the case then you are ignoring verse 9. “What then? And “are we better than them” refers to both Jews and gentiles. “We” are believers which is a mix of both. The next part of the verse confirms that by naming both Jews and Greeks. What follows in verses 10 to 18 is a description of the natural condition of both Jews and Greeks.

“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin

bible.com

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Ok so your observation rests on these verses only representing the Jews. If that is the case then you are ignoring verse 9. “What then? And “are we better than them” refers to both Jews and gentiles. “We” are believers which is a mix of both. The next part of the verse confirms that by naming both Jews and Greeks. What follows in verses 10 to 18 is a description of the natural condition of both Jews and Greeks.

“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin

bible.com

"Under sin" does not equate to "no free will". This thread is about depravity which is defined as no free will.
Additionally, Paul's letter has one continuous theme. Jews and Gentiles alike, sinners.