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He was already dead; that's why he murdered. All men died the moment Adam & Eve ate of the fruit. That explains Rom 5:14:Was there the Law's curse of death on Cain's murder?
So Cain was a dead body walking?He was already dead; that's why he murdered. All men died the moment Adam & Eve ate of the fruit. That explains Rom 5:14:
"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses."
Exactly, that's why a body walking must be born again.So Cain was a dead body walking?
Well, not to Christ in His conversation with Nicodemus.That's a new one. . .
Again,Is that your reconciliation of human death with no cause for human death because there was no Law to sin against?
The body is not born again.Exactly, that's why a body walking must be born again.
As a Catholic, your understanding of material vs. spiritual in Jn 3:3-8. should be as least as good as that of a Protestant.Well, not to Christ in His conversation with Nicodemus.
Because of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16) to all those of Adam (Ro 5:18-19). . .and which imputation was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ to all those of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 5:18-19, Php 3:9).Again,
"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses."
So, now, why would that be?
And both were obtained by Adam at the Fall.As a Catholic, your understanding of material vs. spiritual in Jn 3:3-8. should be as least as good as that of a Protestant.
"Material" relates to matters of one's physical body, "spiritual" refers to matters of the Holy Spirit and also to one's own spirit.
Then how do you explain all the living bodies walking around?And both were obtained by Adam at the Fall.
"of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If we don't unite with and remain in Him we wither and die; we have no life in us. Adam killed man by his disobedience, his refusal to acknowledge God as God. We all died with Adam.
Which it took 930 years for his body to do.And both were obtained by Adam at the Fall.
"of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
They may think they're alive but apart from Christ they are not. Do you think this world is the one God originally intended for man? Do you think the sin and evil that we experience here are the best God can do? Is that how a truly alive man acts?Then how do you explain all the living bodies walking around?
And that's the point. Adam died immediately by his disobedience, as God said he would.Which it took 930 years for his body to do.
I'm too grounded to buy the notion that Christ-denying Jews are not physically alive.They may think they're alive but apart from Christ they are not.
I think the whole "schtick" is the sovereign God's (Da 4:35) plan (Ro 9:22-24), down to the last detail.Do you think this world is the one God originally intended for man? Do you think the sin and evil that we experience here are the best God can do?
Is he born again with the same color hair and eyes as before?Is that how a truly alive man acts?
How and why must a man be born again?
And yet he sired a family after that. . .how does that work?And that's the point. Adam died immediately by his disobedience.
And, as God said, the day he ate from the tree he would die. And he did. God did not lie, while the serpent did. Both physical and spiritual death parallel each other. So physical mortality entered man's world on that day as well.Which it took 930 years for his body to do.
The Hebrew is: "Dying, you shall die."
His spirit died (lost eternal life) and his body died years later.
The NT vocabulary is more precise, distinguishing between spiritual life and physical life,And, as God said, the day he ate from the tree he would die. And he did. God did not lie, while the serpent did. Both physical and spiritual death parallel each other. So physical mortality entered man's world on that day as well.
If we we're apart from God we are dead, regardless. And if we're with him we live, regardless.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; Matt 11:25
As I said. So the person, even though a living, walking body, can be dead.So the human body can be alive while the human spirit is dead,
and the human spirit is alive while the body is dead (2 Co 5:1-9).
The physical person is not dead until the physical body dies.As I said. So the person, even though a living, walking body, can be dead.
The person is the same person in either case. And are most certainly dead to the extent that they are not in communion with God. That's a basic of the faith. Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the fruit. Just like a person can be dead in their trespasses and sins. The metaphor should not be too deep to escape anyone. And this is why, incidentally, the church in the past has called the state of original sin the "death of the soul".The physical person is not dead until the physical body dies.
Who woulda' tho't such basic knowledge would be challenged?
The human spirit never dies.
Surely Catholics know this. . .
There is physical death of the body. . and there is spiritual death of the human spirit (i.e., absence of eternal life).The person is the same person in either case. And are most certainly dead to the extent that they are not in communion with God.
The soul does not die.That's a basic of the faith. Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the fruit. Just like a person can be dead in their trespasses and sins. The metaphor should not be too deep to escape anyone. And this is why, incidentally, the church in the past has called the state of original sin the "death of the soul".
They did not die physically, they died spiritually (loss of eternal life). . .there is a difference.The person is the same person in either case. And are most certainly dead to the extent that they are not in communion with God. That's a basic of the faith. Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the fruit.
Dead in trespasses and sins is absence of eternal life within one's immortal spirit, not of physical life in one's physical body.Just like a person can be dead in their trespasses and sins. The metaphor should not be too deep to escape anyone.
But the soul does not die.And this is why, incidentally, the church in the past has called the state of original sin the "death of the soul".
And?? Is that supposed to somehow deny the fact that Jesus raises the spiritually dead to newness of life?There is physical death of the body. . and there is spiritual death of the human spirit (i.e., absence of eternal life).
At physical death of the body, the body ceases to exist except for its dust.
The human spirit is immortal and nevers cease to exist, even without eternal (God's) life.
The spirit of man does not die either then, since, as you say, it's immortal.The soul does not die.
Adam and Eve died spiritually; I.e., they lost eternal life within their spirits.
Yes, as I've maintained. Dead men walking.Adam and Eve died spiritually; I.e., they lost eternal life within their spirits.
OK? This adds nothing to what I've said. Dead men walking.They did not die physically, they died spiritually (loss of eternal life). . .there is a difference.
Physical death is cessation of the body's existence.
Spiritual death is not cessation of the immortal spirit's existence, it is absence of eternal (God's) life within the immortal human spirit.
Man is born in spiritual death (no eternal life in his spirit), by his nature an object of wrath (Eph 2:3), and who is reborn into eternal life by the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).
Thanks for your opinion.But the soul does not die.
A distinction without much of a difference. How is imputing sin to anyone who isn't guilty of it any different-or better- or more just? You don't quite seem to get it. All fell with Adam and so all share the same fate and consequences. All are equally dead. All need to be born again in order to live. Why, would you speculate, do all of Adam's descendants inevitably sin? Hint: there's something more wrong with them than imputed sin.
I don't traffic in human metaphors for Biblically-stated truth.Death of the soul is a metaphor historically used for the same concept- for that which happens when one is separated from God. And that's the point. So are you denying that man is born dead metaphorically, while truly dead to God, and must be born again?
You make no distinction between physical death and spiritual death, seemingly treating them in the same way.A distinction without much of a difference.
Well, man does not inherit sin (Eze 18:20).How is imputing sin to anyone who isn't guilty of it any different-or better- or more just?
Do all need to be born again to have physical life?You don't quite seem to get it. All fell with Adam and so all share the same fate and consequences. All are equally dead.
All need to be born again in order to live.
Indeed. . .there is there nature, which makes them objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).Why, would you speculate, do all of Adam's descendants inevitably sin?
there's something more wrong with them than imputed sin.
Eccl. 12:71) The human spirit is immortal and does not die.
And you don't see the circular argument therein?2) Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, it is the absence of eternal life within the immortal human spirit.
3) Spiritual death is not physical death.
And you don't see the major misunderstanding therein?Eccl. 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Matt. 23:9 for the kicker
And you don't see the circular argument therein?
Immortal life but absence of eternal life doesn't add up
There is no difference between immortal life and eternal life
Sure you do. We know death only because we know physical death. Spiritual death or death of the soul are metaphor- because they apply and use the term and concept of death metaphorically.I don't traffic in human metaphors for Biblically-stated truth.
Um, no, metaphors do not necessarily contain untruth. For example, the teaching that believers are grafted into a vine in John 15 is metaphor.Metaphors contain untruth and are problematic for Biblical concepts.
"Spirtual death" or "death of the spirit" are terms not found in the bible, as with "death of the soul", even though the concepts, themselves, align with the truth of the gospel. And theologians do not necessarily distinguish defintively between the soul and spirit, while the soul is sometimes conceived of as a part more specifially containing the self: personality, etc. Either way the usage of one term over another is certainly nothing to get dogmatic or insistent about."Spiritual death" is the absence of eternal life within the humn immortal spirit, it is not "death of the soul."
Yes, again you've added nothing here to what I originally said. So what's the point? Just exploring another pointless rabbit trail here? Here's what you've been contesting at least since post #97:Spiritual death does not mean current physical death, nor death of the human immortal spirit.
Most of living mankind is in spiritual death; i.e. no eternal (God's) life within their immortal human spirits.
They were already dead, born that way due to their alienation from God. That's the state known as "original sin".
A ridiculous unbiblcal pattern if imputation is said to be the only reason for man's unrighteousness before God and his restored righteousness through Christ.Well, man does not inherit sin (Eze 18:20).
Adam's sin is imputed by God, it being the pattern (Ro 5:14) for God's imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).
Ok, finally, something changed in them due to the Fall that caused them to sin, to become actually unrighteous. They didn't receive a "sin nature" however, as if anything new was now added to them. The Fall was ltierally a fall away from God and His grace, from the life He had in store for them. Apart from Him now they could do nothing, including maintaining any consistent level of the righteousness or moral integrity that man was intended to have.Indeed. . .there is there nature, which makes them objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).
Adam's sin imputed to all mankind does not cause them to sin.
It simply counts them as guilty of Adam's sin and subject to its condemnation, it being the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).
Human life is no life at all apart from God.All fell with Adam and so all share the same fate and consequences. All are equally dead. All need to be born again in order to live.
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