What is the Lord's Day?

[Aaron112]

- The day of the Lord is the day of His coming judgment.

Getting more interesting,
may be closer the first century believers (Jewish, Hebrew, Israel, Jesus' Disciples) ...

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I think the two options that Myst33 laid out should be included:



- The day of the Lord is Sunday, the day of the Lord's victory.

- The day of the Lord is the day of His coming judgment.

Those are documented views people hold on the subject. So they should be options in the poll regarding people's views on the subjec

So combine them into one or keep them separate. I talked with somebody else who brought this up yesterday and I thought oh man I forgot that one.

 

[tall73]

So combine them into one or keep them separate. I talked with somebody else who brought this up yesterday and I thought oh man I forgot that one.

They are separate.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The purpose of the poll is twofold. 1. To list the various views on the Lord's Day. 2. To see all people on this form of view the Lord's Day.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

They are separate.

They look like the same thing

 

[tall73]

They look like the same thing

Maybe we are talking about two different things. Are you saying these two look the same? Or something else looks the same?

- The day of the Lord is Sunday, the day of the Lord's victory.
- The day of the Lord is the day of His coming judgment.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

There are many people who have varying views on the Lord's Day. This poll is designed to clarify the varying views on the

There are many people who have varying views on the Lord's Day. This poll is designed to clarify the varying views on the issue.

When I was a teenager many many years ago I was taught that the Sabbath was the Lord's Day. Matthew 12:8 and Luke 6:5 both indicate that the Son of Man was Lord of the Sabbath. In Revelation 1:10 John indicated he was in Spirit on the Lord's day. The issue is, of course, was the Lord's Day originally the weekly Sabbath before it was hijacked by those who associated the Lord's Day as Sunday, the day of Jesus's resurrection.

My question is, is it really the case that when we read of the Lord's Day written by Christians in the second or third centuries CE that it always referred to Sunday? If yes, when is the first mention of the Lord's Day when it clearly refers to Sunday?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

When I was a teenager many many years ago I was taught that the Sabbath was the Lord's Day. Matthew 12:8 and Luke 6:5 both indicate that the Son of Man was Lord of the Sabbath. In Revelation 1:10 John indicated he was in Spirit on the Lord's day. The issue is, of course, was the Lord's Day originally the weekly Sabbath before it was hijacked by those who associated the Lord's Day as Sunday, the day of Jesus's resurrection.

My question is, is it really the case that when we read of the Lord's Day written by Christians in the second or third centuries CE that it always referred to Sunday? If yes, when is the first mention of the Lord's Day when it clearly refers to Sunday?

My thinking is yes, if you trace it backward, there is a clear line back to the Apostles and John the Revelator. The question becomes where did it first originate and why? the first mention of it in the bible is Revelation, but I think it was first called the "Lord's Day" when it went public in Ephesus. Ephesus is the first place Christians had a public meeting hall, the school of Tryannus, before that, it was "The Celebration of the Lord's Life" a private in-home meeting. The name change reflected the need to make a distinction between Jew and Christian, keep the peace, and teach Christ. Something they could not due in the synagogue. This was not only prompted by separation from the synagogue but religious conflict in Rome between Jews and Christians which led to the Jews, among them Priscilla & Aquilla, being kicked out of Rome. In order to solve this problem they separated and when they went to a public service used the term "The Lord's day".

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Maybe we are talking about two different things. Are you saying these two look the same? Or something else looks the same?

- The day of the Lord is Sunday, the day of the Lord's victory.
- The day of the Lord is the day of His coming judgment.

victory over sin and death, then how is it different from what we say about the Lord's day when we are commemorating the resurrection" Isn't that just saying the same thing, except in more detail?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

But the Bible very clearly states that the things of the Covenant made through Moses pointed toward Jesus, and that the Old is rendered obsolete by the New (those aren't my words, those are the words Scripture uses).

-CryptoLutheran

for those who accept Christ, the law is written in the Heart. that includes the Sabbath, since he is the Lord of the Sabbath it will remain forever and is a sign of his rulership during the 1000 years. For those not under the New Covenant they are still under one or more of the Prior covenants, that is why it still remains.

 

[The Liturgist]

My question is, is it really the case that when we read of the Lord's Day written by Christians in the second or third centuries CE that it always referred to Sunday? If yes, when is the first mention of the Lord's Day when it clearly refers to Sunday?

In the first century Book of Church Order called the Didache, which dates from approximately 70 AD, meaning it predates the Apocalypse of the Holy Apostle John the Theologian, Evangelist and the Beloved Disciple, commonly referred to as Revelation by at least a decade.

That said, the question is irrelevant. In Matthew 16 our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ declares the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. All scriptural references to large scale apostasy are associated with the End Times. Therefore the contention of some Restorationist churches like the Quakers, Adventists and others that there was a Great Apostasy are extremely implausible if one asserts that this Apostasy occurred before the writings of St. Ignatius the Martyr around 110 AD, or St. Justin Martyr in 130 AD. The second century is the very early church.

And the rationale for the Lord’s Day being Sunday is rather obvious considering it was on that day the Only Begotten Son and Word of God rose from the grave and on that day God the Holy Spirit descended onto the Apostles (see Acts), indeed the latter incident is probably why the average starting time for church services always winds up being around 9 AM, since it was at the Third Hour following Sunrise that the Holy Spirit descended.

 

[The Liturgist]

There is also the apocryphal Gospel of Peter, which while apocryphal, does not significantly differ in its surviving fragment from the canonical accounts of our Lord’s Passion or even His resurrection; it may have been the product of the first century heresiarch Cerinthus opposed personally by St. John the Apostle as some say it has a docetic element, or it may be entirely orthodox, the latter being more likely since the largest surviving manuscript was discovered by archaeologists having buried respectfully with a Coptic Orthodox monk in the ninth century. Actually the lack of a complete Gospel of Peter is one of the greatest tragedies of the Early Church, along with the lack of a complete Gospel according to the Hebrews, especially since extremely heretical works like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas (not to be confused with the sayings gospel) or the Tripartite Tractate survived in their entirety.

 

[The Liturgist]

for those who accept Christ, the law is written in the Heart. that includes the Sabbath, since he is the Lord of the Sabbath it will remain forever and is a sign of his rulership during the 1000 years. For those not under the New Covenant they are still under one or more of the Prior covenants, that is why it still remains.

The Lord’s Day represents a Second Sabbath, since being the mystical Eighth Day of Creation it is the end of our struggle against sin and our eternal rest in peace with God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Also, the reign of Christ our God will endure forever. This is the official doctrine of the Nicene Creed, which says of our Lord that His Kingdom shall have no end. Chiliasm was decisively rejected at the Council of Constantinople in 381, where the Creed was finalized. And the Creed is authoritative, and therefore all scripture must be interpreted according to its provisions, and not vice versa.

 

[The Liturgist]

The purpose of the poll is twofold. 1. To list the various views on the Lord's Day. 2. To see all people on this form of view the Lord's Day.

If you want your poll to accomplish that you need to listen to the majority of the members replying to this thread, when we tell you that none of the options you provided adequately represent our views. I suspect that your insistence on retaining the word “Usurped” in option IV is causing the most consternation, but also there are several theologies on the Lord’s Day, such as the widely held Eastern Orthodox view that it is not the first but the mystical eighth day of Creation and a second Sabbath is not provided for.

The problem from my perspective is that every option you provided is in some respect derogatory towards non-Sabbatarian perspectives. This bias is something you may not be aware of, as we very commonly are unable to discern our own biases.

Rather than complaining about it, I am going to offer to help you. Should you agree, I propose to form an ecumenical committee of members including representatives of Sabbatarianism, along with representatives of Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Reformed Protestantism, Evangelical Protestantism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholicism, and other Restorationist churches if we have any members of the Stone/Campbell Movement, the Plymouth Brethren or the Quakers, to work together to provide a comprehensive and inclusive list of perspectives on the Sabbath.

 

[tall73]

victory over sin and death, then how is it different from what we say about the Lord's day when we are commemorating the resurrection" Isn't that just saying the same thing, except in more detail?

"- The day of the Lord is Sunday, the day of the Lord's victory."

This is describing the resurrection, yes.


"- The day of the Lord is the day of His coming judgment. "

This is not describing the resurrection. but the final judgment, at the end of time. Some think "the Lord's day" is a reference to "the day of the Lord", the day of His judgment.

 

[ViaCrucis]

for those who accept Christ, the law is written in the Heart. that includes the Sabbath,

One of the usual problems I have with SDAism is that frequently "law" is limited to only the Decalogue. And there are a lot of excuses for doing this, such as that only these ten were written by God on the tablets of stone. The problem is that the Bible is very clear that all the commandments which God gave Israel are God's commandments, God's Law. And that "Law of Moses" is just a synonym for the Torah, which includes everything from "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt" to "A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.". It's all Law, it's all Torah. God commands it, so it is Law, His Law. The Bible itself doesn't say "these ten commandments are superior to the others", it's all Law.

When Jesus Christ, our God and Lord Himself, answers the question of "What is the greatest commandment?" He doesn't mention any of the ten commandments. Instead He quotes Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18.

So with that in mind, yes, the commandments of God are written on our heart, through faith, because the one who has been regenerated by God, having been made a new creation, is being worked upon by God--with a new heart, a clean heart, a new/renewed conscience. So that, by the power of the Spirit, we ought to desire obedience to God and that our will be conformed to His.

Since the Sabbath is called, by St. Paul, a shadow in Colossians 2:16-17 which points to the greater reality of Christ; since the Apostle was abundantly clear that to be a Christian does not mean conversion to Judaism, so that there is no requirement by the Greeks, Romans, and "barbarians" converting to Christianity to be circumcised, to follow the dietary restrictions of the Jews, or to observe the Torah; then to claim that this one particular thing--the Sabbath--still stands as a requirement for the Christian is really nothing more than a shibboleth which some try to use for their own self-justification.

For even as circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but being obedient to God; so is the observance of the Sabbath nothing and the non-observance of the Sabbath nothing.

If you tell me I cannot honor Christ by hearing His word and partaking at His Table on His Day, but instead must do so on the Sabbath, then you impose not the commandment of God, but the traditions of men. For the commandment of God, for me in Christ, is not that I attend church on the Sabbath; but that I love Him with my whole heart, love my neighbor as myself, and that I seek to abide in the way of Christ as He lays forth for us in His word.

Nobody who rests on the Sabbath or attends religious services on the Sabbath will be rewarded for doing so on the Day of Judgment. What will matter, however, is how did you treat the least of these? For the King and Judge shall say to you and to me, "I was hungry"--did we feed the hungry or did we ignore them? For whatever we do to the least of these, we have done it (or denied it) to Him. On that Day not all who say "Lord, Lord" will be acknowledged by Him; for no amount of prophesying or so-called good works will matter on that Day; rather, did we follow Him and do the will of His Father?

St. Paul will say, in Galatians 5:14, that the pas nomos, all the Law, the entire Law of God, is fulfilled in a single word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

So, yes, you're right, God's Law--His commandments--are written on our heart. And what is it that He wills and desires? That we attend church services on Saturdays? No, but rather, as it was written long ago by the Prophet Micah, "He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God."

since he is the Lord of the Sabbath it will remain forever and is a sign of his rulership during the 1000 years.

Which demonstrates a lack of understanding of what "Lord of the Sabbath" means.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, it does not have authority over Him, He has authority over it. So when the Lord of the Sabbath "violates" the rules concerning the Sabbath He cannot be judged by men and their dictatorial claims against Him. So if Christ our God harvests grain to provide food for the hungry on the Sabbath, He has the authority to do just that. And the scribes and teachers of the Torah have no justifiable claim against Him. He is Master over the Sabbath, the Sabbath is not master over Him.

For the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was intended as a service, from God, to provide His people rest from labor--out of His love for them. Turning the Sabbath, therefore, into a weapon and to make men subservient to it is itself a violation of the commandment itself.

Also, Christ is Lord and Ruler right now. I'm not interested in getting into debates about the Millennium.

For those not under the New Covenant they are still under one or more of the Prior covenants, that is why it still remains.

All is fulfilled in Christ. For Christ has trampled the old snake, He is promised salvation from judgment, He is the Seed of Abraham, He is the one greater than Moses, and the Root of Jesse. He is the Son of Man who when taken up before the Ancient of Days has been given everlasting dominion and kingdom.

This is Jesus, King Messiah, He reigns forever and ever.

Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto,
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

When I was a teenager many many years ago I was taught that the Sabbath was the Lord's Day. Matthew 12:8 and Luke 6:5 both indicate that the Son of Man was Lord of the Sabbath. In Revelation 1:10 John indicated he was in Spirit on the Lord's day. The issue is, of course, was the Lord's Day originally the weekly Sabbath before it was hijacked by those who associated the Lord's Day as Sunday, the day of Jesus's resurrection.

My question is, is it really the case that when we read of the Lord's Day written by Christians in the second or third centuries CE that it always referred to Sunday? If yes, when is the first mention of the Lord's Day when it clearly refers to Sunday?

St. Ignatius of Antioch, in his letters, makes a clear distinction between the Lord's Day and the Sabbath--they are entirely different things. He wrote his letters after he was arrested and being escorted by a group of Roman soldiers to face his trial in Rome. His letters and martyrdom are generally dated to sometime between 105 and 110 AD, with a 107 AD date usually given.

Some important details about St. Ignatius of Antioch:

He was an old man when he was arrested, and he was bishop of Antioch. He became bishop after his predecessor, Evodius was martyred (69 AD). Ignatius, therefore, had personally listened to and studied under the teaching of both the Apostles Paul and Peter when they ran their ministry from Antioch. Ignatius would have, therefore, been one of the presbyters of the Antiochene church, possibly ordained directly by either Paul or Peter to serve in the ministry as a pastor for the Christians in Antioch.

When Ignatius, therefore, says that the Lord's Day and the Sabbath are different, he's worth listening to. He literally knew the Apostles.

So either Ignatius is siimply saying what everyone already knew (the most likely option) or else Ignatius became really senile in his old age or decided to just throw away what he learned from the Apostles. One has to wonder, however, why--if Ignatius became so callous to the teachings of his predecessors and teachers, he'd be so willing to offer His life as a sacrifice to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And He certainly doesn't come across as senile, he comes across as quick, astute, and passionate in his eagerness to serve Jesus Christ and the whole Church of God by imploring the Faithful to abide in Christ in everything.

The short version of all this:

No Christian in antiqutiy taught the Lord's Day was the Sabbath. The first definition of the Lord's Day we get is from someone who personally knew and was ordained by the Apostles as a pastor. A pastor in the church where "the disciples were first called Christians". Who was discipled directly under the pastoral care of both the Apostles Peter and Paul.

There simply isn't any counter-evidence that "the Lord's Day" ever meant anything else in the Christian community.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Adventist Heretic]

If you want your poll to accomplish that you need to listen to the majority of the members replying to this thread, when we tell you that none of the options you provided adequately represent our views. I suspect that your insistence on retaining the word “Usurped” in option IV is causing the most consternation, but also there are several theologies on the Lord’s Day, such as the widely held Eastern Orthodox view that it is not the first but the mystical eighth day of Creation and a second Sabbath is not provided for.

The problem from my perspective is that every option you provided is in some respect derogatory towards non-Sabbatarian perspectives. This bias is something you may not be aware of, as we very commonly are unable to discern our own biases.

Rather than complaining about it, I am going to offer to help you. Should you agree, I propose to form an ecumenical committee of members including representatives of Sabbatarianism, along with representatives of Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Reformed Protestantism, Evangelical Protestantism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholicism, and other Restorationist churches if we have any members of the Stone/Campbell Movement, the Plymouth Brethren or the Quakers, to work together to provide a comprehensive and inclusive list of perspectives on the Sabbath

I am just dumbfounded you difficult people want to make this process. The complaining must stop, no one is being hurt, and nothing is at stake here. many of these long-winded rants are just too much given what we are doing here. The action does not merit the response, so get a helmet life is hard. It is a poll. please press or don't press the button, but no one wants to hear a lecture. if you think it is something different then say "The Lord's Day is.....__________ those are the instructions. I will not listen to a lecture. It is not necessary.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

St. Ignatius of Antioch, in his letters, makes a clear distinction between the Lord's Day and the Sabbath--they are entirely different things. He wrote his letters after he was arrested and being escorted by a group of Roman soldiers to face his trial in Rome. His letters and martyrdom are generally dated to sometime between 105 and 110 AD, with a 107 AD date usually given.

Some important details about St. Ignatius of Antioch:

He was an old man when he was arrested, and he was bishop of Antioch. He became bishop after his predecessor, Evodius was martyred (69 AD). Ignatius, therefore, had personally listened to and studied under the teaching of both the Apostles Paul and Peter when they ran their ministry from Antioch. Ignatius would have, therefore, been one of the presbyters of the Antiochene church, possibly ordained directly by either Paul or Peter to serve in the ministry as a pastor for the Christians in Antioch.

When Ignatius, therefore, says that the Lord's Day and the Sabbath are different, he's worth listening to. He literally knew the Apostles.

So either Ignatius is siimply saying what everyone already knew (the most likely option) or else Ignatius became really senile in his old age or decided to just throw away what he learned from the Apostles. One has to wonder, however, why--if Ignatius became so callous to the teachings of his predecessors and teachers, he'd be so willing to offer His life as a sacrifice to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And He certainly doesn't come across as senile, he comes across as quick, astute, and passionate in his eagerness to serve Jesus Christ and the whole Church of God by imploring the Faithful to abide in Christ in everything.

The short version of all this:

No Christian in antiqutiy taught the Lord's Day was the Sabbath. The first definition of the Lord's Day we get is from someone who personally knew and was ordained by the Apostles as a pastor. A pastor in the church where "the disciples were first called Christians". Who was discipled directly under the pastoral care of both the Apostles Peter and Paul.

There simply isn't any counter-evidence that "the Lord's Day" ever meant anything else in the Christian community.

-CryptoLutheran

Never said the Sabbath was the Lord's or the Lord's Day was the Sabbath. Try reading the OP. looks like there are some deeper issues at play here.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Never said the Sabbath was the Lord's or the Lord's Day was the Sabbath. Try reading the OP. looks like there are some deeper issues at play here.

I was addressing someone who asked for when "the Lord's Day" was described as not being the Sabbath. And this was my answer to that: That the Lord's Day was always understood to refer to the first day of the week in a Christian context.

As far as the OP of this thread, and the accompanying poll, that's already been addressed: The Lord's Day, the Kyriake, is the weekly celebration of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. That's what it is, that's what it's always been.

Your poll doesn't allow for the correct answer to be chosen.

-CryptoLutheran