What is the greatest moral issue in modern society?

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Not at all. When empathy fails, duty takes over. I have little empathy for most of the charities I support, but it is my duty to help my fellow man.

If you lack empathy, you're arguably lacking what is a fundamental aspect of morality: duty can be admirable, but taken to the extreme you're advocating, again, it's totalitarian and authoritarian, focusing on that instead of actually looking at the meta ethics, because you seemingly wouldn't want to think about that.

I don't claim to have perfect empathy or the same degree for every person, but that doesn't mean I cannot consider, say, that even if I think Osama bin Laden was a horrible person, I'm not going to spite him as some would in burying him in a way that is intentionally mocking him as a Muslim (extremist that he definitely was). Same reason I don't think we should try to play proverbial God and act like we can be certain a person is beyond redemption in any manner or be happy that an evil person died rather than being sad that they lost a chance to rehabilitate

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

Halbhh said:
If you read my posts, you'll find I'm confident about things that are shown true by outcome -- for instance here on CF very often I'm describing things I've tested extensively, and have a lot of outcomes/results to gauge.

When you try to characterize that as overconfidence about things on which I don't have knowledge, that's only assertion and also mischaracterization. (what Donald Trump does a lot, for instance)

You've done a lot of characterization, and mischaracterizations, both, I'm noticing, in your posts.

Over and over you are characterizing people's arguments. There's something to look at, for you.

Characterization itself can be an overconfident tendency to judge what you don't have enough information to judge. See? You've here made yet another accusation/characterization, and so you are doing the very thing you are preaching against....

I suggest here you really do need to do as you are preaching, yourself. First. That will fix a lot.

What you believe to be testing is not necessarily using an objective methodology: fancying yourself a scientist does not make you one no matter how much you talk it up

You cannot be said to have knowledge in terms of those things that are not rooted in something falsifiable in the first place: what you think you're falsifying would need to be subject to peer review or the like rather than just concluding you personally have the right answer. If I have good blood pressure and healthy weight range, that doesn't mean that I can conclude I won't have potential issues in later years because of those observations over time that are consistent in the results.

If you keep acting as if you are somehow in the right, you're not helping, you're showing contempt under the guise of "helping" someone instead of addressing things in a constructive fashion that isn't effectively tearing everything down and finding nothing remotely positive.

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
American history helps minorities catch the vision of America much better than their own ethnic history. For example "Black History" reminds blacks of their African history, and their history of slavery. Hardly useful for success in America. Latinos are indoctrinated with the history of the theft of the territories in the southwest by America, territories that many believe is rightfully theirs. Again, not useful.

Yeah, I'm sure American history didn't involve slaves...oh wait, yes it did, for a century or more if its existence. You can't possibly be that idiotic to suggest such a thing. Slavery was a historical reality for most countries in the world, that's irrelevant to the morality of slavery, which we universally would judge nowadays as reprehensible. Or are you suggesting slavery is somehow amoral because it existed so commonly in the past? Including America, mind you, slave trade was a big thing for the early economy

Black history is not purely African history, same with Latin history not being reducible to those various countries, it's about the ethnicity worldwide in terms of historical contributions and not trying to suggest history is about moral declarations one way or the other except when systemic issues are concerned, versus the fact that, say, a black man discovered something in science

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Why do volunteer groups need funding?

Because money is a necessary aspect of advancing progress towards a goal, infrastructure, etc. Again, you can't possibly be this naive to think a non profit doesn't need money, that's not what non profit means at all

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
If you lack empathy, you're arguably lacking what is a fundamental aspect of morality: duty can be admirable, but taken to the extreme you're advocating, again, it's totalitarian and authoritarian, focusing on that instead of actually looking at the meta ethics, because you seemingly wouldn't want to think about that.

Doing one's civic duty is strongly ethical, and moral. Godly love, agape, includes the element of duty. When touchy-feely fails we're left with duty.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
Yeah, I'm sure American history didn't involve slaves...oh wait, yes it did, for a century or more if its existence. You can't possibly be that idiotic to suggest such a thing. Slavery was a historical reality for most countries in the world, that's irrelevant to the morality of slavery, which we universally would judge nowadays as reprehensible. Or are you suggesting slavery is somehow amoral because it existed so commonly in the past? Including America, mind you, slave trade was a big thing for the early economy

Black history is not purely African history, same with Latin history not being reducible to those various countries, it's about the ethnicity worldwide in terms of historical contributions and not trying to suggest history is about moral declarations one way or the other except when systemic issues are concerned, versus the fact that, say, a black man discovered something in science

It's best for minorities to look to the future, not the past.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
Because money is a necessary aspect of advancing progress towards a goal, infrastructure, etc. Again, you can't possibly be this naive to think a non profit doesn't need money, that's not what non profit means at all

Non-profits aren't volunteer groups, although volunteers often work with non-profits, for no compensation. Also volunteer groups are self funding if funding is needed.

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Doing one's civic duty is strongly ethical, and moral. Godly love, agape, includes the element of duty. When touchy-feely fails we're left with duty.

But duty without empathy is hollow, mere obedience without any motivation beyond a poor sense of self esteem dependent on the approval of others

I never said empathy was absolutely reliable, so maybe don't make the leap to duty based on a mischaracterization

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Non-profits aren't volunteer groups, although volunteers often work with non-profits, for no compensation. Also volunteer groups are self funding if funding is needed.

Not sure what the difference you're remotely making is: volunteer positions are, by definition, in that non profit umbrella, they aren't mutually exclusive.

And "self funding" is a nebulous term, they work on donations and such, but depending on their function, they can get federal subsidies, Samaritan's Purse sure wants to suckle at the government's teat for spreading whatever notion of the "gospel" they think is involved, long as they can keep getting money, they'll bow at the altar of Trump.

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
It's best for minorities to look to the future, not the past.

They're not mutually exclusive: the past is what is looked to in order to avoid repeating it in the present or future, the future is what is looked to for possibilities, but not in an unrealistic sense of hope, but persistence under an ideal of justice

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
But duty without empathy is hollow, mere obedience without any motivation beyond a poor sense of self esteem dependent on the approval of others

I never said empathy was absolutely reliable, so maybe don't make the leap to duty based on a mischaracterization

Duty will get the job done. Many who are empathetic aren't equipped to render effective aid. The protesters for example, march around yelling for someone else to do what they want done. Probably because they believe their 'empathy' is all they need to contribute.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
They're not mutually exclusive: the past is what is looked to in order to avoid repeating it in the present or future, the future is what is looked to for possibilities, but not in an unrealistic sense of hope, but persistence under an ideal of justice

I agree somewhat. However the future depends on personal action, not an "ideal of justice", as this doesn't, and will not, be forthcoming. Look at it like learning to dance. If you continue to step on your partners toes soon no one will dance with you.

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Duty will get the job done. Many who are empathetic aren't equipped to render effective aid. The protesters for example, march around yelling for someone else to do what they want done. Probably because they believe their 'empathy' is all they need to contribute.

So you settle for mediocrity then? Not striving to actually understand ethics at all? Protests are not all equal, I don't think anyone is claiming that, your generalization isn't helping, nor is your dismissive tone that they're entitled or such, to say nothing of the vast assumption that you think they only care about empathy, as if it's somehow antithetical to duty or mutually exclusive

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
Not sure what the difference you're remotely making is: volunteer positions are, by definition, in that non profit umbrella, they aren't mutually exclusive.

And "self funding" is a nebulous term, they work on donations and such, but depending on their function, they can get federal subsidies, Samaritan's Purse sure wants to suckle at the government's teat for spreading whatever notion of the "gospel" they think is involved, long as they can keep getting money, they'll bow at the altar of Trump.

Not for Profit Definition

Employee or Volunteer: What's the Difference? – Nonprofit Risk Management Center

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
I agree somewhat. However the future depends on personal action, not an "ideal of justice", as this doesn't, and will not, be forthcoming. Look at it like learning to dance. If you continue to step on your partners toes soon no one will dance with you.

The ideal is not a thing that is realized, it's something we base our actions on in regards to a future status we desire, it can vary greatly. And personal action is connected to that ideal, you don't do an action based on nothing, but if all you appeal to is authority, that's dogmatic and dangerously fascistic in the mentality that encouraged such atrocities in history

Dance is an art, it's not rooted in the same kind of investigation philosophy is, so you're making a category error, it seems

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
The ideal is not a thing that is realized, it's something we base our actions on in regards to a future status we desire, it can vary greatly. And personal action is connected to that ideal, you don't do an action based on nothing, but if all you appeal to is authority, that's dogmatic and dangerously fascistic in the mentality that encouraged such atrocities in history

Dance is an art, it's not rooted in the same kind of investigation philosophy is, so you're making a category error, it seems

Doing one's civic duty is not mandated by the State, except in a few cases where lives are at stake. Otherwise it's entirely voluntary.

Making a dance an 'art' comes after you make dance a 'craft'. Anyway you missed the metaphor.

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Not for Profit Definition

And that definition does not exclude volunteers, it notes that there can be a paid staff involved, I'm not ignorant of what non-profit entails, I've volunteered for them in the past, mostly fan conventions (yes they're actually non profit, encouraging edification through understanding of culture, etc, from what I understand of that group I work for)

muichimotsu · Jun 4, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Doing one's civic duty is not mandated by the State, except in a few cases where lives are at stake. Otherwise it's entirely voluntary.

I didn't say it was forced by the state, I said the mentality is the same, even if you're making it voluntary, the motivation you're focusing on is obedience to a law rather than understanding the spirit of that law, to use the Biblical turn of phrase

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
So you settle for mediocrity then? Not striving to actually understand ethics at all? Protests are not all equal, I don't think anyone is claiming that, your generalization isn't helping, nor is your dismissive tone that they're entitled or such, to say nothing of the vast assumption that you think they only care about empathy, as if it's somehow antithetical to duty or mutually exclusive

I believe that such protests are shallow, ineffective, all-for-show, expressions of self-aggrandizement, where the protestors think they are more important than they actually are. They contribute little or nothing to the causes that they are demonstrating for. Worse yet they cause many more to step back than to step forward regarding these causes. They often do more harm than good.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 4, 2020

muichimotsu said:
And that definition does not exclude volunteers, it notes that there can be a paid staff involved, I'm not ignorant of what non-profit entails, I've volunteered for them in the past, mostly fan conventions (yes they're actually non profit, encouraging edification through understanding of culture, etc, from what I understand of that group I work for)

Non-profits, and, volunteer groups, are different, although they often work together.

What is the greatest moral issue in modern society?

I Spit On Perfection

I Spit On Perfection

I Spit On Perfection

I Spit On Perfection

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

I Spit On Perfection

I Spit On Perfection

I Spit On Perfection

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

I Spit On Perfection

Wake me when it's soup.

I Spit On Perfection

Wake me when it's soup.

I Spit On Perfection

I Spit On Perfection

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

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