What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

[Lion IRC]

Those stories are not as wide spread as your claiming.

Firstly, I'm not making that claim, I'm just reporting what the literature informs me is the case.
Secondly, I make no claim as to what exactly qualifies as 'widespread'. Two dozen? Three dozen? How would I know what you consider widespread?

Can you show us any geological proof of said world wide flood?

What about....

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

I don't think so. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! Again you are assuming without knowing anything about me. I thought we were getting past that!!

I was one of the few people (perhaps only person), when I went back to university a few years ago, that mixed well and made good friends with everyone in my program including even Americans! Many people want to think of themselves as open minded, progressive, non-bigoted, modern, cosmopolitan, non-racist etc. etc. But actions are what matters. Yet many people in my program interacted very little with certain groups such as most people from Asia, Africa, some Europeans and people from the middle east. My comments are completely innocent and only reflect that I got on well with Asians. I would say the same about my relationships with Europeans, Africans, people from middle east (and even Americans ), if the individual came from there etc. I made friends with everyone. Actions speak louder than words my friend. I would say you should be careful about jumping to conclusions.

Two possibilities occur to me from this post. One is that your advanced age and education you are ignorant of the possibility that your difficulties communicating are indicative of an autism spectrum disorder.

Another is that you are an example of what is defined as a concern troll. For your claimed education and experience, you should be able to recognize those who are making re your intelligence nonsensical claims. Your interactions however are only with those who you claim to be on your level. Further those interactions are indicative of a person who is not actually cognizant of one who is understanding on the level you claim to be.

I will leave it as grow up,
or go away, you have been rumbled.

 

[Bertrand Russell White]

OK. I'm back.
I investigated and found that a global flood actually happened.

There is evidence of local floods. This could have developed into a global flood myth. We have to remember that early civilizations did not see the world as round but more like a bowl. I have read people like Henry Morris and people like that in the past but they are unconvincing. Morris seemed like the most convincing Christian dealing with geology but him and his group

Have you read and studied Sumerian and Babylonian flood stories and history? It would seem that Israel got their flood stories from these later in about the 6th century BC or so. This is what the vast majority of secular and Christian non-fundamentalist scholars agree on. This is based on many lines of evidence from archeological to writing. This would seem much more probable to either of them getting it from Israel (no evidence, I'm aware of, makes this connection) or both somehow getting it independently (also without evidence for Israel). The figure of Abraham (who seems like a fictional character) came from Ur or one of the earliest city states of Sumer. So if he was real, he might have been Sumerian or Akkadian. There are terms that seem to derive from Sumerian society that seem quite early. However, they could have survived down to the Babylonian Captivity and the Babylonian Empire.

I would like to see supposed evidence for a global flood. Anything I've seen has not been scientific and is a lot of hand waving like evidence for the exodus.

30, 35? Super humid.
Right now it's nice maybe 15

Yea that is pretty warm. We get into the low 30's where I live but rarely above 35. How cold? We can get as low as minus 30 where I live.

 

[Astrid]

Firstly, I'm not making that claim, I'm just reporting what the literature informs me is the case.
Secondly, I make no claim as to what exactly qualifies as 'widespread'. Two dozen? Three dozen? How would I know what you consider widespread?





What about....

So you started with a claim of,scientific evidence
for the OT, but what you have is that you heard of
some myths.
But you know nothing about them.

And you have a silly cartoon about whatever.

So why make claims you cannot remotely
support?
Hint-
You can't because it's not true.

 

[Astrid]

There is evidence of local floods. This could have developed into a global flood myth. We have to remember that early civilizations did not see the world as round but more like a bowl. I have read people like Henry Morris and people like that in the past but they are unconvincing. Morris seemed like the most convincing Christian dealing with geology but him and his group

Have you read and studied Sumerian and Babylonian flood stories and history? It would seem that Israel got their flood stories from these later in about the 6th century BC or so. This is what the vast majority of secular and Christian non-fundamentalist scholars agree on. This is based on many lines of evidence from archeological to writing. This would seem much more probable to either of them getting it from Israel (no evidence, I'm aware of, makes this connection) or both somehow getting it independently (also without evidence for Israel). The figure of Abraham (who seems like a fictional character) came from Ur or one of the earliest city states of Sumer. So if he was real, he might have been Sumerian or Akkadian. There are terms that seem to derive from Sumerian society that seem quite early. However, they could have survived down to the Babylonian Captivity and the Babylonian Empire.

I would like to see supposed evidence for a global flood. Anything I've seen has not been scientific and is a lot of hand waving like evidence for the exodus.


Yea that is pretty warm. We get into the low 30's where I live but rarely above 35. How cold? We can get as low as minus 30 where I live.

Maybe 8 degrees? Pretty cold. But I've been in minus 50.

 

[Astrid]

Two possibilities occur to me from this post. One is that your advanced age and education you are ignorant of the possibility that your difficulties communicating are indicative of an autism spectrum disorder.

Another is that you are an example of what is defined as a concern troll. For your claimed education and experience, you should be able to recognize those who are making re your intelligence nonsensical claims. Your interactions however are only with those who you claim to be on your level. Further those interactions are indicative of a person who is not actually cognizant of one who is understanding on the level you claim to be.

I will leave it as grow up,
or go away, you have been rumbled.

Well, multiple science degrees and a biz degree seems eminently
probable. You might encounter such a person on any cross
country bus.

 

[Bertrand Russell White]

Two possibilities occur to me from this post. One is that your advanced age and education you are ignorant of the possibility that your difficulties communicating are indicative of an autism spectrum disorder.

Another is that you are an example of what is defined as a concern troll. For your claimed education and experience, you should be able to recognize those who are making re your intelligence nonsensical claims. Your interactions however are only with those who you claim to be on your level. Further those interactions are indicative of a person who is not actually cognizant of one who is understanding on the level you claim to be.

I will leave it as grow up,
or go away, you have been rumbled.

It has never been suggested that I have an autism spectrum disorder. I guess there is a first time for everything. Have to remember this one. lol! This could be possible I suppose. Although no one has ever suggested I have Asperger's or any other disorder on the spectrum. I don't wear a lot of sweaters and other characteristics of autistic people.

People who know me would laugh at the suggestion that I'm a concern troll. Most people who know me would suggest I'm, if anything, too serious about what I'm talking about too often - so if there is an opposite to a concern troll, I would be more like that. Of-course, I'm sure I may sometimes come across as this.

My wife is a psychotherapist and I have read enough of her books to doubt that you know what you are talking about. However, maybe you do and what sounds like psychobabble is more than that. You are a curmudgeon after all. Oh yea, I'm supposed to be one too. Getting old you know, I'm at an advanced age so I forget these things.

Perhaps, as you say, it is more related to my advanced age and education. Theoretical physics and mathematics definitely can distort the brain. There really is some isomorphism between some real life theoretical physicists and Sheldon from BBT. Oh yes, I would say he definitely exhibits Asperger's but what do you think Dr. Spock?!

 

[Lion IRC]

There is evidence of local floods.

Agreed. Strong evidence. Uncontroversial.

This could have developed into a global flood myth.

Take a whole bunch of floods and put them all together - what have you got?

We have to remember that early civilizations did not see the world as round but more like a bowl.

This doesn't really weigh in favor or against the material consequences of a Noachian deluge event. Whether you're a Buddhist or an atheist or a pastafarian, or a flat earther, your personal beliefs don't really stop water from accumulating in a flood scenario.

Have you read and studied Sumerian and Babylonian flood stories and history?

Yes, a little.

It would seem that Israel got their flood stories from these later in about the 6th century BC or so.

No, it's not settled historiography who plagiarised who.

This is what the vast majority of secular and Christian non-fundamentalist scholars agree on.

The so-called vast majority of scholars I've read do not agree that they are in the minority.

This is based on many lines of evidence from archeological to writing. This would seem much more probable to either of them getting it from Israel (no evidence, I'm aware of, makes this connection) or both somehow getting it independently (also without evidence for Israel).

"...this would seem" ???
"...much more probable" ???
This is drifting into the very same deep water which I contend leaves the topic open to such speculation. You also threw in an argument from silence.

The figure of Abraham (who seems like a fictional character) came from Ur or one of the earliest city states of Sumer. So if he was real, he might have been Sumerian or Akkadian.

Youre guilty of cherry picking your mythology here.
You can't take one ancient flood "myth" and argue that it invalidates another.
Abram/Abraham lived in the birthplace of cuneiform - the invention of writing.
Ur was probably the largest city in the world.

There are terms that seem to derive from Sumerian society that seem quite early. However, they could have survived down to the Babylonian Captivity and the Babylonian Empire.

Again, "seems to derive from" doesn't get you across the line.
An extant written history doesn't necessarily predate an unwritten (earlier) oral tradition discovered after the written alternative.

I would like to see supposed evidence for a global flood. Anything I've seen has not been scientific and is a lot of hand waving like evidence for the exodus.

The exodus is well attested.

 

[Astrid]

Agreed. Strong evidence. Uncontroversial.



Take a whole bunch of floods and put them all together - what have you got?



This doesn't really weigh in favor or against the material consequences of a Noachian deluge event. Whether you're a Buddhist or an atheist or a pastafarian, or a flat earther, your personal beliefs don't really stop water from accumulating in a flood scenario.



Yes, a little.



No, it's not settled historiography who plagiarised who.



The so-called vast majority of scholars I've read do not agree that they are in the minority.



"...this would seem" ???
"...much more probable" ???
This is drifting into the very same deep water which I contend leaves the topic open to such speculation. You also threw in an argument from silence.




Youre guilty of cherry picking your mythology here.
You can't take one ancient flood "myth" and argue that it invalidates another.
Abram/Abraham lived in the birthplace of cuneiform - the invention of writing.
Ur was probably the largest city in the world.




Again, "seems to derive from" doesn't get you across the line.
An extant written history doesn't necessarily predate an unwritten (earlier) oral tradition discovered after the written alternative.



The exodus is well attested.

Attested by chariot wheels in the red sea?

Who told what story when to who matters not re flood.
There was no worldwide flood.
Would your world fall apart if you realized that?

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Well, multiple science degrees and a biz degree seems eminently
probable. You might encounter such a person on any cross
country bus.

haven't spent time on a cross county bus but plenty of time with the YEC neurobiologist and a half a dozen other interesting PhDs. Lots of fun conversations on the ride home living just outside of a college town. Actually I have to admit, I was the troll on the bus who would take any contrary position.

 

[Lion IRC]

And you have a silly cartoon about whatever.

Sorry you think an educational picture about the formation of shale oil and gas is 'silly' or cartoonish. Perhaps we shall leave it there. I hope only for friendly discussion.

 

[Bertrand Russell White]

Well, multiple science degrees and a biz degree seems eminently
probable. You might encounter such a person on any cross
country bus.

True. Most city buses too.

The smartest people I've found actually never went to university or finished university. They didn't have to. Think Chris Langan. Although I never met someone that smart. Cod de-wormers are also supposed to have an over representation of geniuses but I've not checked if this is an urban myth. The only really really smart person I met in university was my friend who wrote papers with Wittan and Polchinski on string theory. He had a 99% average in his last year of HS, almost the same in Undergraduate, skipped his masters in an Ivy league type level school in theoretical physics in the USA and did his PhD on membrane theory when it was first developing with Polchinski. He was the only person I've met in undergrad who could consistently humble professors in advanced math and theoretical physics courses by pointing out all their mistakes if they were stupid enough to try to act like they were the smartest person in the room and put him down. He routinely argued with our smartest professor, a really humble guy who had been nominated for the Nobel prize (although they were very good friends and respected each other).

 

[Astrid]

Sorry you think an educational picture about the formation of shale oil and gas is 'silly' or cartoonish. Perhaps we shall leave it there. I hope only for friendly discussion.

Childish, if you prefer. It is a cartoon..
And it has zero to do with flood evidence.
I'm not unfriendly, but if you are worried that your
faith may be threatened by a breath of reality, then
you best not interact with me.
I foolishly thought you meant what you said about science
supporting the OT.

 

[Bertrand Russell White]

haven't spent time on a cross county bus but plenty of time with the YEC neurobiologist and a half a dozen other interesting PhDs. Lots of fun conversations on the ride home living just outside of a college town. Actually I have to admit, I was the troll on the bus who would take any contrary position.

PC I'm proud of you! You have a little bit of Berty in you after all! Ever listened or read Russel - FR. Frederick Copleston debates?

 

[Bradskii]

Nope. There were likely oral traditions which arose from the same primary event but which didn't realise that their inherited knowledge of that event came from Noah's descendants.

OK. So there was one world wide flood for which there is no evidence and there evolved dozens of flood myths from one family, all entirely different, representing a multitude of different meanings for the various peoples, generally representing their own religious beliefs, happening at different times to different extents. And all this within a few dozen generations.

Or...different people relate their own stories about a common event.

Hmmm. Pass me that razor, Occam. I'm up for some slicin' an' dicin'.

C'mon, Lion. If you weren't a bible literalist you'd think that was as crazy as I do.

 

[Bradskii]

OK. I'm back.
I investigated and found that a global flood actually happened.

I bet I know where you investigated. I bet I know which book you checked. I'll bet I even know the chapter and verse!

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

PC I'm proud of you! You have a little bit of Berty in you after all! Ever listened or read Russel - FR. Frederick Copleston debates?

There you go again, "I'm proud of you", I think that you need to have your wife read over your comments today and our responses. If you allow her to speak honestly and I will assume for the sake of the argument that you have that type of relationship, I think we would all be interested in her response.

Are you up for a new experience at your age maybe?

 

[AV1611VET]

Or...different people relate their own stories about a common event.

Some time ago, I made up this conversation between Shem and Nimrod to exemplify the point that facts about the Flood are so distorted; starting with the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Shem: What's this trash you wrote, Nimrod; are you okay!?
Nimrod: Don't start on me again, uncle; you've always looked down on us Hamites.
Shem: That's garbage too! You used to be a mighty hunter before the LORD, what went wrong?
Nimrod: You think you Shemites are so much better than us, just because my grandfather was cursed for what his father did to your mother in that tent that day.
Shem: I watched you grow up, Nimrod, and how you used to love the LORD so much; but somewhere along the line you went astray and broke away from the rest of us and went and formed your own little empire. Well ... you do what you want, but as long as I live, I'll make sure my eyewitness testimony trumps your lies.
Nimrod: And what makes you an authority on the Flood over me?
Shem: I was there! Remember??? I was on the Ark ... you weren't!
Nimrod: Oh, that's right ... somehow I forgot ... what with there being no evidence and all.
Shem: [facepalms]

 

[dlamberth]

In short, God cleaned up after Himself.

I've heard something like that from you some time ago. I have always thought it curious. Why would God want to clean up after Himself?

 

[AV1611VET]

I've heard something like that from you some time ago. I have always thought it curious. Why would God want to clean up after Himself?

For sanitary and safety reasons.

Also, so Noah could replenish the earth as instructed.

Earth probably looked something like this, when Noah and company disembarked: