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What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

nolidad

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This is literally how speciation happens. Two groups from the same species that could have previously interbred break into two incompatible species because their genes have changed in a way that effect their biochemistry, cellular structures, anatomy, or behavior such that they can no longer mate or won't mate with each other. Those changes that occurred to both groups during their separation were evolution. They occurred because different genetic variants were selected and perhaps some new ones were created by "mutations". This *is* evolution and that's how it happens.

(I don't know if the "subway rat" story is real, but you seem to think it is. If it is that's exactly what evolution is.)
Well that is evolution on the micro scale. and in the end both started as rats and ended as rats! That is not Darwinian evolution on the "macro" scale. This is a true story and it provides 0 evidence that these rates are evolving ointo something that are not rats! All we saw is a horizontal change. And though rats are prodigious breeders', it reduced the viability of the overall population of rats in NYC for it broke them into two separate groups and reducing the number of "breeding pairs" in the overall population.

No this is what happens when you exhibit a deficit in understanding. It can be corrected, but you have to work to learn.

Well I have freely admitted on this forum I am no geneticist or biologist but I do have enough understanding ot know microbes to man is an unprovable untestable unrepeatable hypothesis and thus relegated to philosophical science and not an empirical science.
 
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nolidad

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Not only this, but non-creationists almost always are more familiar with creationism than creationists themselves. When one has been debating this subject for decades, creationist arguments become old hat (especially since they're always the same).

It never ceases to amaze me how unfamiliar creationists tend to be with both science and creationism.


Well most of them are old hat because they have never been refuted! No one has shown an unplanned, random undirected genetic mutation has ever added new information to a genome. It may have rewritten existing material to produce a variant of teh same parent, but added no new features that previously did not exist in the population.

A PHD geneticist tried and failed!
 
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nolidad

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From your posts here, we can easily see that you don't know the basics of the Theory of Evolution (ToE). I understand that it isn't nice to be labelled as ignorant publicly, but if you take a few seconds to think about it, we are all ignorant about many things. I outknowledge you probably on one or two different fields and you outknowledge me probably in many different fields. And Hans Blaster, Shemjaza, Vir Optimus and all others posting here have their subjects in which they outknowledge all the others while be ignorant on some other fields.
Some weeks ago a fellow YEC'sts (NBB) displayed the same ignorance as you. I posted some links to educational resources. Going from youtube series, introductional level sites to free college level textbooks. He/She refused to look at it. His/her choice.
Surprise us. Show a will to learn.

Well it depends on which iteration of TOE you are looking at. I understand what is called micro evolution

Microevolution is the change in allele frequencies that occurs over time within a population. This change is due to four different processes: mutation, selection (natural and artificial), gene flow and genetic drift.

Macroevolution refers to evolution of groups larger than an individual species. The history of life, on a grand scale. Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants.

These are from Berkely.edu so I am sure you will accept them as valid basic definitions.

And yes I know the hypotheses that say that micro evolution produces macro evolution- but that is what is in debate and is untestable unobservable and unrepeatable.

And I have watched basic primer videos from Dawkins, Hawkings, Perry, et. al. as well as archived videos from past evolutionists. Also Primers from Berkely, Stamford, Harvard et. al.

I am not here to argue micro evolution. We all see that. I would define it differently than you for using the term evolution generically muddies the waters of the debate about large scale (microbes to man ) evolution.
 
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Brightmoon

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Noli we know you don’t understand basic biology. Macroevolution is mainly just repeated Microevolution over a long period of time. I said mainly because it doesn’t always take a long time . Allopolyploid speciation means that the fertile offspring are a different species . The allopolyploid won’t be able to mate with either parent species and produce fertile offspring but will with other of the allopolyploids.
Just in case , MACROEVOLUTION IS SPECIATION!
 
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pitabread

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Well most of them are old hat because they have never been refuted!

You keep telling yourself that.

No one has shown an unplanned, random undirected genetic mutation has ever added new information to a genome. It may have rewritten existing material to produce a variant of teh same parent, but added no new features that previously did not exist in the population.

This is incorrect. Mutations do add new genetic information to genomes all the time (insofar as there are applicable definitions of "information" re: the genome).

And insofar as novel features go, this really depends how one defines such things. In the case of observed evolution, we know that novel mutations can and do occur in populations including gain-of-function mutations. And these mutations can result in novel traits with respect to the population.

Where it gets trickier is how one strictly defines a novel "feature". In many cases, evolution simply modifies what already exists. But at what point does a modification to something previous constitute a novel feature?

Vertebrate limbs for example all follow the same basic template. But is a bird wing a novel feature compared to an arm or a leg? At the structural level, they have more in common than they are different.
 
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pitabread

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And yes I know the hypotheses that say that micro evolution produces macro evolution- but that is what is in debate and is untestable unobservable and unrepeatable.

It's not in debate. Once you have evolution leading to reproductive isolation among populations (e.g. speciation), everything else is just a compounding of that process. And since we already observe that process occurring today...

(On a side note, Young Earth creationists actually require massive levels of macroevolutionary events to occur in a relatively short period of time. If you're trying to argue on their behalf, you have to know they're some of the biggest evolutionists around. :D )

I would define it differently than you for using the term evolution generically muddies the waters of the debate about large scale (microbes to man ) evolution.

And this is the problem. You're defining it differently because you seem to think it's a fundamentally different process. It's not.

Evolution is evolution. And it's occurred whether you like it or not.
 
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nolidad

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If you have an honest interest in learning how evolution is tested and supported by evidence, I'd invite you to check out the free education resources compiled in this thread: Educational resources for learning about biology and evolution

If you're willing to make the time and effort, you could learn a lot about the science in question with the resources provided.
And if you would honestly answer these poblems, you would find that teh patterns, clades etc.etc. do not provide the answer that evolution actually took place versus a historic pattern of possible related groupsin a particular genus or species or even family.

REprinted with permission from B. thomas:

Darwinian evolution promotes a mantra that “all creatures great and small—natural processes made them all.” Just one creature somehow became all others. Textbooks reassure students that some early fish turned into today’s fish, as well as birds, turtles, and humans.

Does this match the real world? It’s one thing to simply draw a line on a paper between two animals’ pictures to express a belief that they’re related, but how can we know for sure? One test offers a hard stop to evolution between basic kinds: all-or-nothing body systems.

Body parts integrate into body systems. Each part, and each piece that makes up that part, needs the right shape, size, and strength of material to do its job. That’s why brains aren’t made of enamel but of interconnected nerves.

Some body parts can change a little and still allow the system to work. For example, human legs come short and thick or long and thin and every variety in between. But the imaginary process of transforming fish fins into human legs would leave the in-between creature either unable to swim or unable to walk. It would die, as would its evolution. Take enough of a fish’s fins away on its supposed journey to land life, and it loses its ability to track down dinner before it becomes dinner.

I have a friend who cut off his pinky finger by accident. He survives just fine with such a small change. He can no longer catch minnows out of his bait bucket with that hand, so he uses his other hand or gets help from a friend when fishing. But the changes needed to trace the supposed evolution of one of those minnows into my friend, one body part at a time, would kill the unfortunate fish. Just like man-made machines, body systems can only take so much change before they simply stop working. And body systems are vital.

At some point, nature would have to replace gills with lungs, leaving the creature unable to breathe. And that’s just one necessary body-part change. That dead fish would still have a long way to go in becoming human, including replacing its two-chambered fish heart with a four-chambered heart. Once nature added two more chambers (and how would such mutants survive?), the animal would stop pumping blood while its arteries and veins migrated out of place toward their mammal-like destinations. The list of all-or-nothing body systems gets longer the more you look for them.1

If the shift from one basic body form into another requires the loss of any vital body part even for a minute, then that shift would require a wholesale rebuild from the ground up. In other words, it would require creation. You can’t change a fish into a person—or into a clam or squid—any more than you can install 29-inch wheels on a young child’s bicycle.

Just because someone draws lines that connect pictures of paramecia, piranhas, and people doesn’t mean they evolved. Whoever makes such connections ought first to think through the insurmountable steps, like rewiring nerves, reprogramming cells, and replacing hundreds of genes. Each change that would kill the original creature—as mutations do today—represents an evolutionary impasse. How can you refute evolution? Just ask its defenders for examples of how nature rewires all-or-nothing body systems.

Also remember fossilized bones or imprints of feathers or even preserved feathers in amber do not show the process evolution requires of the massive changes that have to take place.

Goldscmidt was one who recognized this insurmountable problem when he developed his now disregarded "hopeful monster theory".

YOu just don't go from fin to limb in one grand sweep. and changing it mutation by mutation reduces the ability of teh population to prey on its food source and escape its predators! Thus it becomes extinct as it is a "sitting duck" ^_^
 
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nolidad

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You keep telling yourself that.



This is incorrect. Mutations do add new genetic information to genomes all the time (insofar as there are applicable definitions of "information" re: the genome).

And insofar as novel features go, this really depends how one defines such things. In the case of observed evolution, we know that novel mutations can and do occur in populations including gain-of-function mutations. And these mutations can result in novel traits with respect to the population.

Where it gets trickier is how one strictly defines a novel "feature". In many cases, evolution simply modifies what already exists. But at what point does a modification to something previous constitute a novel feature?

Vertebrate limbs for example all follow the same basic template. But is a bird wing a novel feature compared to an arm or a leg? At the structural level, they have more in common than they are different.


Well then show the empirical research that supports what you just said here! You know propose, test. observe. repeat. peer review., and publish!
 
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nolidad

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You keep telling yourself that.

Well other than talk origins.org, and there many "supposed" refutations, I know of no real refutation of scientific creationism. and please spare me the spare me the tired diatribe that creationism cannot be scientific.

If you accept that nothing became something, and then that something became, organic compounds, and then it became alive over X eons of time without demonstrating thsat the mechanisms evolution claim produced the organic to living to microbes to man is scientific without ever having observed it, then creation is just as scientific.

Both propose their hypotheses ( and I do not know of any non creation scientist going into their field not believing evolution is true) , both go do research, try to test the hypotheses, look at the results, modify or accept and present them to boards for review!
 
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driewerf

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Well most of them are old hat because they have never been refuted! No one has shown an unplanned, random undirected genetic mutation has ever added new information to a genome. It may have rewritten existing material to produce a variant of teh same parent, but added no new features that previously did not exist in the population.

A PHD geneticist tried and failed!
A simple and elegant way to show evolution in action was set up by professor Kishony and his team. A gigantic petri dish (120 x 60 cm) as divided in lanes with increasing concentration of antibiotics, from (0 , no antibiotics: 1 just enough to kill all bacteria, gradually up to 1000 x the concentration of 1). Different strains of Escherichia Coli were spotted in the 0 lane. As this lane got filled and the places for new bacteria got depleted the bacteria were pushing against the boundary of the 10 lane. Only those bacteria and their descendants that got the suitable mutations for surviving in a higher concentration of antibiotics made it to the next lane. The experiment filmed over 11 days shows clearly that bacteria can evolve a resistance to a 1000 fold stronger concentration of antibiotics than the wild type bacteria.

The second clip has the same images from the MEGA-plate plus an interview of Roy Kishony inbetween.


These are undirected unplanned mutations that add new information.
Observable, repeatable, testable.

Here are two papers about this experiment.
Spatiotemporal microbial evolution on antibiotic landscapes
Home - Kishony lab
 
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pitabread

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And if you would honestly answer these poblems, you would find that teh patterns, clades etc.etc. do not provide the answer that evolution actually took place versus a historic pattern of possible related groupsin a particular genus or species or even family.

<snip strawman>

Once again, if you want to understand how and why evolution is supported by evidence, start with the free educational resources I posted. But if you don't, you don't.

As for the giant copy-paste, it's little more than a typical creationist strawman. It's just the same tired creationist argument that tries to claim that any intermediary evolutionary forms would be functionally detrimental to the organism and therefore wouldn't be evolvable.

Yet, those claims are instantly refuted just by examining the modern biosphere. For example, they claim that going from water to land would result in organisms unable to swim or walk. Yet among modern living species we have numerous examples of semi-aquatic species perfectly capable of doing both (yes, there are fish that walk: These Fish Spend 90% of Their Time Walking On Land).

Likewise, the claim that gills -> lungs would leave a create unable to breath. Again, this is a false claim because there are semi-aquatic organisms that can respirate in both the air and under water: Amphibious fish - Wikipedia

All that copy-paste screed reveals is a profound ignorance of living organisms.

You could learn about real living organisms and familiarize yourself with the amazing realities of nature. But if you're rather deny that, that's your choice.
 
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pitabread

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Well other than talk origins.org, and there many "supposed" refutations, I know of no real refutation of scientific creationism.

The refutation is the science itself. I posted you a link to a thread with education resources on the subject. You can take advantage of them or not. Your choice.

please spare me the spare me the tired diatribe that creationism cannot be scientific.

Insofar as creationist claims can be scientifically tested, they've been refuted. Beyond that, there is no way to scientifically test ideas in creationism insofar as supernatural claims go. Which is one reason you have so many different versions of creationism; there is no way to test them and determine which is correct.

You ever notice how creationists can't agree on the age of the Earth? Is it 6000 years old? 12000 years? 4.5 billion years? Some other number? (I've seen creationists here claim it's up to 13 billion years old.)

If only they had some way to measure the age of the Earth to determine who is correct...

Both propose their hypotheses ( and I do not know of any non creation scientist going into their field not believing evolution is true) , both go do research, try to test the hypotheses, look at the results, modify or accept and present them to boards for review!

Creationist organizations require their members to adhere to religious faith statements. They preclude them from performing honest science.

You can find the same in their purported research. For example, the ICR concluded via their RATE project that there is hundreds of millions of years of radiation to account for on planet Earth. Yet, because they adhere to the idea the Earth is only 6000 years old, they don't accept that those results mean the Earth is at least hundreds of millions of years old. Instead, they opt for other rationalizations (including supernatural miracles) to explain their results vis-a-vis a 6000 year old Earth.

That's not science.
 
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driewerf

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Well I have freely admitted on this forum I am no geneticist or biologist but I do have enough understanding to know microbes to man is an unprovable untestable unrepeatable hypothesis and thus relegated to philosophical science and not an empirical science.
Show the tests that prove that mutations took us from microbe to man.
"Microbes to man". Is see that phrase popping up a lot since short. A few thoughts
  • Evolution has no end goal
  • Humanity isn't the end goal of evolution, otherwise the examples of speciation observed in real time would be what? beyond that hypothetical end goal
  • Creationists, having no scientific arguments have only a very few arrows in their quiver mainly: distort, ridicule or appeal to emotions. So the say "microbes to man", just to keep their folowing hoorified. Note that they never say "microbe to ant", or "microbe to parrot", or to drosophila melanogaster. They always take hulanity for the emotional appeal it has.
 
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driewerf

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Well we haven't even gotten to teh science supporting Divine Creation so you are ten steps ahead.
In this thread The Creation Museum your fellow creationst also claimed to have scientific prove of a creation.
I like that you a free to believe in Creation while attending that museum and pretty much have no restrictions. Including finding actual evidence supporting creation as science fact. Its amazing how many people there share that same POV.
During the whole thread he did nothing else but dodge and doge and doge.

Let us see if you do better. (Spoiler alert, all creationists have failed, it's already a miracle if they try.)

Now, before you even start to hit the keyboard: you said the science supporting divine creation.. I am not interested in "why evolution can't be true". I want the science supporting divine creation.
 
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Speedwell

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Well most of them are old hat because they have never been refuted! No one has shown an unplanned, random undirected genetic mutation has ever added new information to a genome. It may have rewritten existing material to produce a variant of teh same parent, but added no new features that previously did not exist in the population.
It can't do anything else but add new information. A random signal contains the most information.

http://people.math.harvard.edu/~ctm/home/text/others/shannon/entropy/entropy.pdf
 
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Speedwell

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Well other than talk origins.org, and there many "supposed" refutations, I know of no real refutation of scientific creationism. and please spare me the spare me the tired diatribe that creationism cannot be scientific.
Creationism is not science. It rests on an entirely different epistemological basis than science. Even if creationists were right about our origins and scientists wrong, it still would not be science.
 
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BobRyan

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In this thread The Creation Museum your fellow creationst also claimed to have scientific prove of a creation.

we are in the C-vs-E forum, I feel sorry for him given the constraints.

During the whole thread he did nothing else but dodge and doge and doge.

More flattering than I had expected. nice going.

One can only wonder why proving that something that is impossible ...is... impossible -- would even be a challenge under normal conditions.

Let us see if you do better. (Spoiler alert, all creationists have failed, it's already a miracle if they try.)

I prefer the real life historic fail of Urey and Miller in their efforts to show that the impossible was "possible" for abiogenesis
Revisiting the Failed Miller-Urey Experiment? | Piltdown Superman

I am not interested in "why evolution can't be true".

hmmm... I wonder why that is not the least bit "surprising"

I want the science supporting divine creation.

first - define your use of the term "science" --
Do you mean "show me a scientist that has a video of creation"

or
"show me a scientist that can also create life from nothing"??

or "Show me a scientist that can create an amoeba from dust, rocks, water, gas and sunlight... and then admits God could probably also do it if the scientist can do it in the lab"??

Currently we have a lot of scientists claiming that all life and in fact all the universe - came from nothing.

Surely wild claims are not the same thing as "science" for the rest of us.
 
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