what is the evidence that universe is 13.7B years old?

[46AND2]

And "god of the gaps" is yours, I take it?

Fair. Touche.

 

[SelfSim]

Indeed. Hence my comment a while back that he would, by rationale, need to disregard Calculus entirely....

Sure .. but we're not even up to Calculus when we're still talking parallax calculations done using basic trigonometry!?
My burning question is: how does basic trig somehow introduce speculation about what a year is?

Which is odd considering he claims to be a physics teacher. Must be algebra based physics for non-STEM students.

No comment .. (for fairly obvious reasons).

 

[46AND2]

Sure .. but we're not even up to Calculus when we're still talking parallax calculations done using basic trigonometry!?
My burning question is: how does basic trig somehow introduce speculation about what a year is?
No comment .. (for fairly obvious reasons).

Truth. But I don't want to gloss this over for him. Literally the issues he has with "speculation" apply to almost everything in physics.

 

[46AND2]

Sure .. but we're not even up to Calculus when we're still talking parallax calculations done using basic trigonometry!?
My burning question is: how does basic trig somehow introduce speculation about what a year is?
No comment .. (for fairly obvious reasons).

Also, thank you for your educative posts.

 

[46AND2]

Also, thank you for your educative posts.

I need to make a list. I'm actually surprised at how many names I recognize after a year away. Glad for the input from the believer side as well. AV, philo, etc.

 

[SelfSim]

Truth. But I don't want to gloss this over for him. Literally the issues he has with "speculation" apply to almost everything in physics.

Speculation plays a role in science .. (no two ways about that). But how a basic time measurement like a year, when referenced within math operations, becomes speculative, requires an explanation .. especially in a physical sciences forum.

I'm hoping my request for a simple clarification isn't, (yet again), grossly misinterpreted and handled by way of a repeat deletion, (as it was previously).

 

[46AND2]

Speculation plays a role in science .. (no two ways about that).

speculation plays a roll in everything, ever. so what.

 

[Astrid]

Indeed. Hence my comment a while back that he would, by rationale, need to disregard Calculus entirely....

Which is odd considering he claims to be a physics teacher. Must be algebra based physics for non-STEM students.

Wasn't matn once considered satanic in western culture

 

[AV1611VET]

Wasn't math once considered satanic in western culture.

If it added up to 666 all the time.

 

[Job 33:6]

I did find all your thoughts interesting. But to focus on this, which as to my understanding is still the strongest evidence in some way for an old universe. But maybe we cannot even begin to speak about what we think "old" means.

The idea that God should create light on its way is of course ridiculous. I cannot think that God should need to cover up his tracks.

However, oddly enough, going even further out, with the hubble space telescope, I read that they see now galaxies at a distance of 20B light years or something. And these are not baby galaxies but fully developed galaxies. So maybe the idea that looking far into space will also provide a view back in time, must take a hit.

There is a sentence in book of psalms, that God "stretches out the heavens". I think, some of my questions are
- is speed of light really as constant as we want it to be?
- how would one in scientific terms describe the stretching of the heavens? And could it be observable?

Stretching out the heavens, or the raqia, should not be conflated with stretching space time. The raqia was a solid dome perception of the authors of the ancient near east:

Let's look at some more verses on the raqia:
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6 NRSV

God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8 NASB1995

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14 NRSV

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11 NRSV

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2 NRSV


And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20 NRSV

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13 NRSV


and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10 NRSV

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18 NRSV

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18 KJV

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18 NIV


It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22 NRSV

Over the heads of the living creatures there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22 NRSV

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26 NRSV

Then I looked, and above the dome that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in form resembling a throne.
Ezekiel 10:1 NRSV

When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:27‭-‬29 NASB1995


The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14 NRSV

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's disappointing. I was going to give an example I'm sure you'd agree with, but he don't wanna hear it from me.

Well, go ahead and say it anyway as constructively as you can. Maybe he needs to engage your example whether he wants to or not. If there's one thing I can't stand seeing happen is people "doing Christianity in a Bubble." So, get your example ready and let it fly, 46AND2!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wasn't matn once considered satanic in western culture

Mmmmm.......not exactly. Stagnation through a major reprioritization of civic values [i.e. of Theology and Law over anything else] rather than a "satanization" of math would probably characterize the nature of the mathematical engagement in the Early Middle Ages, Estrid.

 

[SelfSim]

speculation plays a roll in everything, ever. so what.

Science turns idle speculation into practical usefulness.
Distance calculations in Astronomy are obviously highly useful in explaining how the universe evolved.

 

[NxNW]

What was the first thing, and how did it come to be?

That's an interesting question. But all mysteries are not miracles.

 

[John Caldwell]

That's an interesting question. But all mysteries are not miracles.

True. But we shouldn't discount they may be.

 

[NxNW]

True. But we shouldn't discount they may be.

Evidence would be helpful.

The age of stars and the existence of supernovae and lead are two good indicators that the universe is old.

As to the question of where everything came from, there is good evidence that the sum total of matter and energy in the universe is zero. Gravity is negative compared to matter being positive. But think of it this way: If a positive particle and a negative particle come into existence at the same time, the sum total does not change. If I have a $20 bill in my pocket but receive an invoice for $20, my net worth is zero. Temporary local accumulations don't change the sum total.

 

[SelfSim]

True. But we shouldn't discount they may be.

What one believes to be possible, is not the same as possibilities constrained by the physical laws and constants.

 

[John Caldwell]

Evidence would be helpful.

The age of stars and the existence of supernovae and lead are two good indicators that the universe is old.

As to the question of where everything came from, there is good evidence that the sum total of matter and energy in the universe is zero. Gravity is negative compared to matter being positive. But think of it this way: If a positive particle and a negative particle come into existence at the same time, the sum total does not change. If I have a $20 bill in my pocket but receive an invoice for $20, my net worth is zero. Temporary local accumulations don't change the sum total.

That it exists is evidence (some accept, others reject).

I get the net zero hypothesis (and find it interesting). Still, my foot is on a chair as I type this. So something had to have occurred.

 

[John Caldwell]

What one believes to be possible, is not the same as possibilities constrained by the physical laws and constants.

I agree. The constraints of physical laws cannot definitely account for (or even point to) an event outside of its own constraints.

 

[SelfSim]

I agree. The constraints of physical laws cannot definitely account for (or even point to) an event outside of its own constraints.

Science can though .. its called a belief.